Evolution Questions

[General Trelane (Retired)]

I think the important thing we've pointed out is that a scientific "Law" is not superior to a scientific "Theory".

More important was debunking the idea that a scientific theory is just a guess without any sort of confirmation.

When someone asks a question about science, no matter how irritating or convoluted it may seem, I would urge everyone to be more understanding and willing to offer assistance.

It's down to the individual, I would say. I imagine if kuroneko or surlethe schooled me on physics one time, replete with flames, I'd feel annoyed, but then, what I asked would probably not be phrased with things like "I refuse to believe humans are descended from apes no matter what," either.

Yes, the first couple of responses were terse, but that "I refuse to believe humans are descended from apes no matter what" phrase in the OP really made people (myself included) question Zwinmar's motives. To the board's credit, once it became apparent that he wasn't really trolling, the subsequent replies were much more helpful.

That said, it is important to remember that people coming out of a religious background are often used to being told what to think. Actually going out and finding useful information doesn't come naturally to them at all.

[Darth Wong]

I think the important thing we've pointed out is that a scientific "Law" is not superior to a scientific "Theory".

More important was debunking the idea that a scientific theory is just a guess without any sort of confirmation.

That's been done countless times, and most Christian apologists have heard it before without any effect on their thinking. However, most of them have not been shown concrete examples of a scientific "law" being inferior to a scientific 'theory". That's why Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation and Einstein's Theory of Relativity are such a powerful example; they completely demolish the common fundie assumption that something called a "theory" must be inferior to something which is called a "law". This is of crucial importance when debating someone who thinks that the Law of Biogenesis must automatically defeat the Theory of Evolution.

[General Trelane (Retired)]

That's been done countless times, and most Christian apologists have heard it before without any effect on their thinking. However, most of them have not been shown concrete examples of a scientific "law" being inferior to a scientific 'theory". That's why Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation and Einstein's Theory of Relativity are such a powerful example; they completely demolish the common fundie assumption that something called a "theory" must be inferior to something which is called a "law". This is of crucial importance when debating someone who thinks that the Law of Biogenesis must automatically defeat the Theory of Evolution.

I don't dispute any of that, and in fact, I appreciated the clarity provided on this issue by some of the links.

But the typical creationist that I meet (especially my family) never mentions scientific laws. Instead, they focus on the Theory of Evolution as being "only" a theory. They use the term theory as a synonym for guess. And yes, they do so repeatedly even after it's been pointed out that they're wrong. In this thread, however, I sincerely hope that Zwinmar is beginning to see that a scientific theory is much more than he's been led to believe all these years.

[Zwinmar]

[quote=In this thread, however, I sincerely hope that Zwinmar is beginning to see that a scientific theory is much more than he's been led to believe all these years.[/quote]

I certainly am. As a result the whole theory of religion is leaving me more disgusted every time I look up additional information and compare it to what I was taught.

At work I eventually got to thinking about a movie that they praised. The plot line was basically: This lady was a nympho, had mutlitple partners, yadda yadda, you know the whole 'sex is evil' thing the spew forth. Anyways she 'finds god' has a kid, like the year before the 7 years of tribulation start. At the end of the movie, she ends up murdering the kid so that she can go to 'heaven' then the woman herself is brought to heaven.

I cant remember the name of the movie, but from what I remember it was made sometime in the '80's. Anyway, when I started thinking about it, in context, I realized that it is some sick, depraved motherfuckers who would put out a movie praising the killing of an 8 year old kid, so that kid can 'go to heaven"

Wish I could remember what the movie is called.

[CaptJodan]

I certainly am. As a result the whole theory of religion is leaving me more disgusted every time I look up additional information and compare it to what I was taught.

At work I eventually got to thinking about a movie that they praised. The plot line was basically: This lady was a nympho, had mutlitple partners, yadda yadda, you know the whole 'sex is evil' thing the spew forth. Anyways she 'finds god' has a kid, like the year before the 7 years of tribulation start. At the end of the movie, she ends up murdering the kid so that she can go to 'heaven' then the woman herself is brought to heaven.

I cant remember the name of the movie, but from what I remember it was made sometime in the '80's. Anyway, when I started thinking about it, in context, I realized that it is some sick, depraved motherfuckers who would put out a movie praising the killing of an 8 year old kid, so that kid can 'go to heaven"

Wish I could remember what the movie is called.

A quick google search with some of your terms revealed this lovely piece. Sound familiar?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rapture_%28film%29

[CaptJodan]

Damn it, messed up the tags.

[Zwinmar]

yeah thats the one, I messed up on some details with the plot line, was dozeing through parts of it. Regardless the sick bastards praised it.

[Ted C]

A quick google search with some of your terms revealed this lovely piece. Sound familiar?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rapture_%28film%29

Ick! That sounds like something M. Night Shyamalan would come up with, only stupider.

[Gil Hamilton]

Actually, Zwinmar, if you are having trouble envisioning how we relate to apes, look up "Australopithecus". You'll definitely see the relation if you see our ancestor that is about one removed from the common ancestor to humans and other modern primates.

[Darth Wong]

Actually, Zwinmar, if you are having trouble envisioning how we relate to apes, look up "Australopithecus". You'll definitely see the relation if you see our ancestor that is about one removed from the common ancestor to humans and other modern primates.

I always ask anyone who has trouble grasping the human-ape connection to describe the organ which we have and other primates don't. They can't find one, because there isn't one. The only real difference is that we have bigger brains, upright posture, and better-developed voice boxes, but those are not new organs; they are only refined or reshaped ones. Every single piece of our bodies can be found in some form in other primates; pretty bizarre if we're not related at all.

[Dooey Jo]

One could also note that higher primates, including humans, are among the few animals in the world that are unable to produce vitamin C, and have to ingest it instead. That would be very interesting if humans weren't related to other primates, and even more interesting in any discussion about ID; that's real intelligent, to copy a malfunction around among seemingly related animals (not just a stupid design, but an obvious malfunction, which tended to cause scurvy before it was discovered).

[Gil Hamilton]

I always ask anyone who has trouble grasping the human-ape connection to describe the organ which we have and other primates don't. They can't find one, because there isn't one. The only real difference is that we have bigger brains, upright posture, and better-developed voice boxes, but those are not new organs; they are only refined or reshaped ones. Every single piece of our bodies can be found in some form in other primates; pretty bizarre if we're not related at all.

I don't know, I think the most obvious difference between us and other primates is that somewhere along the line, our species' females picked up large bouyant breasts, with all other apes don't have. And people say that evolution is cruel and unfeeling.

However, I think you only need look a chimp or gorilla in the eye to see that they are our brother primates myself. I don't even understand the objection that people can't associate with a gorilla to not be able to believe that we are related. But pointing to Australopithecus is a good way for people with the associative power of your average stump to see the connection.

[B5B7]

Zwinmar - I think you are misunderstanding the movie The Rapture - maybe this is one of its points, that Xians misinterpret the meaning of things eg the Bible. The Rapture is basically an anti-Xian movie - and the ending has the woman rejecting God [who is the real murderer of her child(by proxy)].

Now it might be said - but wait doesn't the movie have the Rapture at the end and is therefore saying God exists - well yeah, but that this God is bad [just as can have movies that depict Satan as real, but bad]. In fact, God and Satan are really names for the same being - a superdemon.

Maybe its director/writer Michael Tolkin tried to make a pro-Xian movie - I don't know - but based on the evidence of the movie itself, my interpretation makes more sense. To recap - the movie is saying if God exists, He's bad; if God doesn't exist, then the idea of God is bad.

[Darth Wong]

Zwinmar - I think you are misunderstanding the movie The Rapture - maybe this is one of its points, that Xians misinterpret the meaning of things eg the Bible. The Rapture is basically an anti-Xian movie - and the ending has the woman rejecting God [who is the real murderer of her child(by proxy)].

Now it might be said - but wait doesn't the movie have the Rapture at the end and is therefore saying God exists - well yeah, but that this God is bad [just as can have movies that depict Satan as real, but bad]. In fact, God and Satan are really names for the same being - a superdemon.

Maybe its director/writer Michael Tolkin tried to make a pro-Xian movie - I don't know - but based on the evidence of the movie itself, my interpretation makes more sense. To recap - the movie is saying if God exists, He's bad; if God doesn't exist, then the idea of God is bad.

Many people have adopted a more cynical angle on Christian mythology, but this still implies that Christian mythology is essentially correct. It's the old line "it's all true, you're just misinterpreting it". These are the people who say that they're against organized religion, but not religion itself. They're the big Mindless Middle in American politics which sways toward whichever side can manipulate its superstitions and fears because they occupy a middle ground between rationalism and religious fanaticism and they think this is the best position because it's in the middle. And the middle, as everyone in the Mindless Middle knows, is always the truth.

[Zwinmar]

feel free to laugh at this, I do, because it is so distusingly stupid. Anyways, at one time I got online (well after several friends told me about it) and be came an 'ordained minister' of the Universal Life church. Why? you ask. Simple...and made sence at the time....to keep all the door knockers away. It saved me many times from haveing to endure the speech (which I zoned out on) that those people like to schpeel out.

I just waved the 'certificate" under their nose and they left me alone.

The movie, on the other hand, as I look back and remember, I find it to be disgusting. The fact that a Baptist church praised it makes me wonder about their sanity. Not to mention the contradictions of what they preech in comparison.

Of course, these are also the same assholes that continually made fun of a lady because she was a prostitute before he joined. I have no idea why she kept coming back to the place, I know I would have flipped them the bird and walked away.

Oh wait, I did that after the pastor basically ostracised my dad because he did not believe the way they did. Basically, he had taken a Fuckitall pill, he had been in college studying to be a minister until he realised that he was in no position to "tell others how to live their life, when I dont know how to live mine."

[Kitsune]

So funny how in the Q&A portion, he points out that Muslims were emailing him asking him to read the works of an Islamic anti-evolution writer. The Islamic anti-evolutionist's "arguments" were copy and paste jobs of US creationist/ID morons and also was accusing evolution of being a "western Christian plot to subvert the morals of Islamic youth...Charles Darwin studied for the priesthood of the Church of England and that proves to you that he was just another crusader"

There are a lot of Islamic groups who also support the Protocols of the Elders of Zion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elders_of_Zion