Krenim?

[Darth Ruinus]

Ok, since Im relatively new here, I wasnt around to see the major VS battles. And, as this website is massive, Im having trouble finding some info into who these Krenim guys are, and how they would fare against SW.

This came up in a VS discussion some guy started.

Sorry if this has been tackled before, I cannot find it on the website.

Also, the guy said these Krenim distort time and space, and this didnt seem too WOW for me, as I was under the impression that SW distort space?

Any help is appreciated.

[Starglider]

The Krenim ship works by messing about with timelines. Generally in the SWvST debate people take the view 'ST time travel actually works by jumping between parallel universes (which are all the different possible timelines)'. Therefore the Krenim timeship is no more useful than all the time travelling tricks available to the Federation (slingshots, orbs etc); it just takes the ship to a parallel universe and out of the context of the original vs situation (the original timeline/universe).

That said relying on this justification alone is something of a cop out. There is some evidence for many-worlds being correct within Trek canon, but a lot of other evidence against it (for example the whole temporal prime directive and attempts to stop other people changing the timeline would be pointless if they can't actually affect you). For other vs debates, i.e. Daleks versus Culture, time travel gets trotted out as an instant-kill.

However this probably won't work in ST vs SW anyway for range reasons. All known Trek (controllable) time travel methods have a range of centuries at best. That isn't enough to significantly mess up the galactic empire in an offensive situation, because SW civilisation was already quite sufficient to stomp the Federation 10,000 years ago. In a defensive situation, being able to bring back information from the future might help in marginal situations, but against a significant Empire force even perfect foreknowledge won't make much difference (not that the Timeship is known to be capable of this anyway).

The exact power of the 'temporal incursions' as a relatively conventional offensive weapon is not well defined, but given how easily Voyager was able to adjust their shields to resist it I would not be surprised if it had no affect on shielded SW craft (which have broad spectrum shields that don't have to be adjusted against specific threats) whatsoever. Even if it did work well enough to erase an ISD on each incursion, the refire rate seems to be too low to do much against a full scale Imperial assault or defence (and the Krenim time ship is a unique and lost piece of tech).

[Darth Wong]

If the Krenim timeship created real changes, then why did its destruction cause everything to revert to the way it was? What model of time travel involves all changes to the timeline reverting automatically upon the death of the traveler?

[Darth Wong]

There is some evidence for many-worlds being correct within Trek canon, but a lot of other evidence against it (for example the whole temporal prime directive and attempts to stop other people changing the timeline would be pointless if they can't actually affect you).

You are seriously using an assumption about the logical validity of Federation policy in order to contradict observed parallel timelines in Trek? Since when can you contradict observation with "well, people wouldn't do this if that was true, because that wouldn't make sense?" People do illogical things all the fucking time. If there's a reason for them to have a Temporal Prime Directive, it must be in addition to the multiple-timeline scenario, not as a rebuttal to it, because we know the multiple timelines exist. And they're also the only way to explain certain oddities, like the Enterprise-E being unaffected by the timeline changes when it followed the Borg sphere (ie- followed it to the new timeline). It's not as if "temporal wake" is a meaningful explanation.

[Starglider]

If the Krenim timeship created real changes, then why did its destruction cause everything to revert to the way it was? What model of time travel involves all changes to the timeline reverting automatically upon the death of the traveler?

The rationale for this was that when Janeway rammed the ship, it broke the targeting mechanism and caused the main weapon to fire on the ship itself, erasing it from history, which then erased all its uses of its own main weapon from history etc. Pretty silly, but that's Voyager for you.

Incidentally here's the

ship



main weapon



weapon firing



ship being rammed by Voyager

You are seriously using an assumption about the logical validity of Federation policy in order to contradict observed parallel timelines in Trek? Since when can you contradict observation with "well, people wouldn't do this if that was true, because that wouldn't make sense?" People do illogical things all the fucking time.

I'd accept the 'Federation doesn't have a clue' answer for the TOS and probably TNG periods, but VOY and ENT make it clear that the future Federation has a very good understanding of time travel (and lots of time travel and timeline monitoring toys) and still goes to massive efforts to 'preserve the original time line'. So there must be some way that other people's time travel can mess you up.

IMHO the simplest explanation is 'some time travel methods just send you to a parallel universe, others impact on this universe'. However it could be something complicated to do with a finite number of timelines being in existence and them being created/destroyed/modified based on complex physical criteria. Fuck knows you'd need something like that to begin to make sense of 'Relativity' and all the ENT temporal cold war stuff.

[brianeyci]

Is it bad that I think that the Krenim ship was better than Shinzon's butterfly cloaktard?

Hell even the Krenim villian was better. But Kurtwood Smith is way better than whatever tard they got to play Shinzon so no big surprise there.

Besides, the Krenim are so far out of the league of the Federation it's not even funny. If I remember right Chakotay sabotaged something on the Krenim ship, an the ship was built with mediocre conventional weapons because it relied on its temporal shielding.

Whatever the mechanism it is clear the Krenim can use time travel as a weapon and the Federation can't.

How they could make a movie that's worse than a two-story arc in Voyager is beyond me.

[ShadowSonic]

They got a new director who didn't like working with Trek, a story that didn't utilize any of its predecessor stories (Tomalok, Spock's undergound missions on Romulus, Sela, etc), a story supposed to be about Romulans that instead focused on rejects from "Buffy", a wannabe Khan for a villain, a lousy actor for said villain, contradictions to established TNG history, a mystery wank-ship that came out of nowhere, idiotic decisions made for false drama...

Geez, should I continue and mention the B4/Data stuff or is that enough?

[Darth Ruinus]

Thanks for the info.

Im curious as to what that Time Ship is shooting.

[Singular Intellect]

If the Krenim timeship created real changes, then why did its destruction cause everything to revert to the way it was? What model of time travel involves all changes to the timeline reverting automatically upon the death of the traveler?

That was because according to the crew, the time ship actually ended up zapping itself with the temporal weapon, and any target hit this way has all of it's history destroyed as well.

The real question is why the hell the crew didn't think of that solution before since they were so intent on resetting everything back to normal in the first place...

[Singular Intellect]

Thanks for the info.

Im curious as to what that Time Ship is shooting.

A planet, if you're referring to the above pictures.

[Darth Wong]

If the Krenim timeship created real changes, then why did its destruction cause everything to revert to the way it was? What model of time travel involves all changes to the timeline reverting automatically upon the death of the traveler?

That was because according to the crew, the time ship actually ended up zapping itself with the temporal weapon, and any target hit this way has all of it's history destroyed as well.

That really makes sense to anyone? If you blow up a weapon, it fires on itself before it dies?

[SirNitram]

You know, the 'The 29th century Federation can't be that stupid!' argument would work so much better except for the fact that Captain Braxton of the Aeon states simply: "I have no memory of that timeline." when asked about the situation in Future's End, after he appears to send Voyager back where it should be.

[Darth Wong]

I wonder what the time-travel apologists say about Vosk, whose timeline changes also magically reverted themselves upon his death. Did he also have a "temporal weapon" which he fired on himself at the moment he died?

That "fired on itself" explanation is totally brain-damaged.

[SirNitram]

I wonder what the time-travel apologists say about Vosk, whose timeline changes also magically reverted themselves upon his death. Did he also have a "temporal weapon" which he fired on himself at the moment he died?

That "fired on itself" explanation is totally brain-damaged.

The best explanation I can come up with is imagining the person or thing that makes the changes acting like an anchor on others who get drawn through. Upon the elimination of this, for want of a better word, 'Crosstime anchor', everyone is yanked back into place.

This suggests there's a sort of natural attraction to your home timeline. This would explain Guinan's comment about things being 'Wrong' when they run into the Enterprise-C in 'Yesterday's Enterprise'. She knows somethings 'Wrong', but that should be ridiculous.

[Stark]

I dimly recall the Guardian of Forever talking as if there was a 'correct' way for things to be, but that might have been in a novel.

[Starglider]

That really makes sense to anyone? If you blow up a weapon, it fires on itself before it dies?

I only dimly recall the episode dialog, but in this specific case there was something about the weapon being damaged and it 'creating a temporal incursion within the ship itself'. I don't think this was guaranteed to happen just by destroying the ship; Janeway seemed to be acting out of a desire for revenge and/or to prevent further damage, rather than a certainty that she could undo the changes. But Year of Hell was frankly despite its flaws unusually well thought out for Trek time travel. Other examples...

I wonder what the time-travel apologists say about Vosk, whose timeline changes also magically reverted themselves upon his death. Did he also have a "temporal weapon" which he fired on himself at the moment he died?

...are just moronic.

[B5B7]

I wonder what the time-travel apologists say about Vosk, whose timeline changes also magically reverted themselves upon his death. Did he also have a "temporal weapon" which he fired on himself at the moment he died?

That "fired on itself" explanation is totally brain-damaged.

The best explanation I can come up with is imagining the person or thing that makes the changes acting like an anchor on others who get drawn through. Upon the elimination of this, for want of a better word, 'Crosstime anchor', everyone is yanked back into place.

This suggests there's a sort of natural attraction to your home timeline. This would explain Guinan's comment about things being 'Wrong' when they run into the Enterprise-C in 'Yesterday's Enterprise'. She knows somethings 'Wrong', but that should be ridiculous.

The internal logic of 'Yesterday's Enterprise' suggests that the timeline where a war started betwen the Klingons and the Federation is the original timeline, and the timeline of the regular TNG series is due to the Enterprise -C being sent back in time. This of course makes the comments of the "dark universe" Guinan make even less sense.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I have a clip from 'year of hell',

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=TaxckigA8Bw

in which Annorax says the core is destabilising and will cause an incurson within the ship. Somehow Janeway knew that would happen before she had Voyager ram the ship.

[Darth Ruinus]

Thanks for the info.

Im curious as to what that Time Ship is shooting.

A planet, if you're referring to the above pictures.

Oops, I should have payed more attention to my choice of words. I meant to ask, what that Time Ship is firing? As in, what is that beam made of?

[CaptJodan]

I have a clip from 'year of hell',

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=TaxckigA8Bw

in which Annorax says the core is destabilising and will cause an incurson within the ship. Somehow Janeway knew that would happen before she had Voyager ram the ship.

So the weapon fires on itself and the rest of the ship and the ship no longer exists.

If that's the case, why is Annorax still alive back in the "standard" timeline. Shouldn't the entire crew aboard the ship not have existed?

[Bounty]

At the very end of the episode, there's a little scene of Annorax at home in his office, with his wife calling him to dinner. He hesitates for a moment, then leaves his work - a blueprint of the timeship - and walks out. The way I took it (and I grant that I may be giving the writers too much credit here) is that Janeway's kamikaze attack somehow undid every event up to the point where Annorax started work on the ship and that by a sheer fluke of random chance, in that one moment in his office, that one choice of spending time with his family instead of working on the ship led him into a different, "proper" timeline where he never finished the ship.

It fits the idea of Annorax looking for a second chance; while he couldn't repair the damage he did by trying to actively fix it with the timeship, he unwittingly repaired it by not building the timeship in the first place.

Of course, this explanation relies on a really wonky idea of time travel and causality.

[OmegaGuy]

Remind me again, who was Vosk?

[Socar15]

Vosk.

[Bounty]

Remind me again, who was Vosk?

The leader of the evil time-travelling alien Nazi vampire zombies from spaaace! in Storm Front. When his time machine blew up, the "timeline" (...plot) "reset" itself according to a not-so-very-dead-anymore Daniels. ENT, S4 premiere, the one that erased most of the first three seasons.

[OmegaGuy]

No wonder I didn't know him, I couldn't stand watching Enterprise after the second season.