Krenim?

[Bounty]

No wonder I didn't know him, I couldn't stand watching Enterprise after the second season.

He's in this clip, the weird looking alien. And you quit just when it started getting good.

Well, better.

Well, not as bad as before.

[consequences]

I dimly recall the Guardian of Forever talking as if there was a 'correct' way for things to be, but that might have been in a novel.

Imzadi by PAD IIRC.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

One thing I never quite figured out was that even if they managed to restore that colony and hence Annorax's wife and child, they were at it for 200 years. Does anyone see where this is leading?

[Patrick Degan]

I dimly recall the Guardian of Forever talking as if there was a 'correct' way for things to be, but that might have been in a novel.

TIME HAS RESUMED IT'S SHAPE. ALL IS AS IT WAS. MANY SUCH JOURNEYS ARE POSSIBLE, LET ME BE YOUR GUIDE

(EDIT: corrected quote)

That really makes sense to anyone? If you blow up a weapon, it fires on itself before it dies?

If it was designed by ACME, perhaps...

[ShadowSonic]

The firing thing was a freak accident, I really don't think Janeway had that in mind when she rammed the ship. It caused a temporal incursion on itself because Annorax had been firing the time-eraser at Janeway's fleet, but when she rammed it while it was still on "fire" mode she made the weapon backfire on itself due to core instability (instead of the energy from the core being focused through the weapon on front, it exploded and the temporal energy enveloped the ship)

[Darth Wong]

The firing thing was a freak accident, I really don't think Janeway had that in mind when she rammed the ship. It caused a temporal incursion on itself because Annorax had been firing the time-eraser at Janeway's fleet, but when she rammed it while it was still on "fire" mode she made the weapon backfire on itself due to core instability (instead of the energy from the core being focused through the weapon on front, it exploded and the temporal energy enveloped the ship)

"Temporal energy" ...

Only Star Trek could invent such an idiotic term.

[SirNitram]

Come to think of it, if timelines made by time travel are these things that elastically snap back after the death of the creator, that might explain the 29th Century Federation better than 'They're idiots'.

Think about it: Wouldn't the creation and destruction of temporary universes likely have some sort of unpleasant side effects, if they came and went willy-nilly? And if you weren't sure, wouldn't you err on the side of caution?

[ShadowSonic]

I don't think that all alternate timelines in Trek end when the creator is destroyed, it was just a special case in "Year of Hell".

Basically, what happened to the Time-Weapon ship is what happened to the Inquisitor in Red Dwarf, only the crew of the ship survived and in the new timeline they were reverted back to the points in their lives before they became the ship's crew and carried on from that point where the ship was never built.

[ShadowSonic]

The firing thing was a freak accident, I really don't think Janeway had that in mind when she rammed the ship. It caused a temporal incursion on itself because Annorax had been firing the time-eraser at Janeway's fleet, but when she rammed it while it was still on "fire" mode she made the weapon backfire on itself due to core instability (instead of the energy from the core being focused through the weapon on front, it exploded and the temporal energy enveloped the ship)

"Temporal energy" ...

Only Star Trek could invent such an idiotic term.

Actually, I just made that up when I did my post because I forgot what the thing was called in the actual episode

I'm sure they just called it the "Temporal Core" and "Temporal Shields" and stuff. But it's till the same thing: The core was powering the weapon in "Time-Erase" mode, but Janeway ramming it caused the energy to explode and envelope the ship instead of being focused through the thing on the front of the ship, becasue the core was directly powering the weapon.

[Darth Wong]

The firing thing was a freak accident, I really don't think Janeway had that in mind when she rammed the ship. It caused a temporal incursion on itself because Annorax had been firing the time-eraser at Janeway's fleet, but when she rammed it while it was still on "fire" mode she made the weapon backfire on itself due to core instability (instead of the energy from the core being focused through the weapon on front, it exploded and the temporal energy enveloped the ship)

"Temporal energy" ...

Only Star Trek could invent such an idiotic term.

Actually, I just made that up when I did my post because I forgot what the thing was called in the actual episode

I'm sure they just called it the "Temporal Core" and "Temporal Shields" and stuff. But it's till the same thing: The core was powering the weapon in "Time-Erase" mode, but Janeway ramming it caused the energy to explode and envelope the ship instead of being focused through the thing on the front of the ship, becasue the core was directly powering the weapon.

"Temporal core", "temporal shielding", and "temporal wake" are all just as retarded as "temporal energy". They make it sound as if time is like water; you can shoot it at someone, spill it all over yourself, wear a raincoat to keep it off, or get capsized by a big wave in it.

[ShadowSonic]

It's not "time" that's being fired by the weapon. What it did was push you out of the space-time continuum so a new timeline is created where you never existed, and at the same time the weapon also obliterates you.

It's like what the Inquisitor did in Red Dwarf, he erased you rfrom history and then destroyed your physical form. The Krenim weapon just did both at the same time.

[Stark]

You don't think it's funny that it's sitcom-level silliness? Explain what 'push you out of the space-time contimuum' means. Remember, Star Trek is a serious show that Makes Sense.

All of the 'time=water' examples Mike gave are from ST.

[Darth Wong]

It's not "time" that's being fired by the weapon. What it did was push you out of the space-time continuum so a new timeline is created where you never existed, and at the same time the weapon also obliterates you.

And how does it do that? By shooting particles at you which magically accomplish all of this, no matter how fantastical it is, and then somehow shielding itself from LOGIC so that it will still be aware of something that now never existed in the first place. In other words, it literally shoots funky "time juice" at you which makes all of this happen. PRECISELY as I described, despite your technowank apologist bullshit.

[ShadowSonic]

If you believe the dialogue in the show, the Timeship has temporal shields that keep it outside the time-space continuum, which is how the crew hadn't aged a day in 200 years. This is why they are aware of how everything was before they started doing all their time-screwing. Chakotay disabled the shield in the final battle which is why the ship could be affected by the time weapon now and be damaged by conventional weaponry.

They never explained how the timeship's weapon worked in and of itself, though. Then again I think we should be grateful they never did otherwise we'd have been in for another technobabble lesson. Sometimes it's best to jsut get a simple explanation of "it erases things from the time-space continuum", I mean no one complains we don't know how the Guardian of Forever works.

[ShadowSonic]

You don't think it's funny that it's sitcom-level silliness? Explain what 'push you out of the space-time contimuum' means. Remember, Star Trek is a serious show that Makes Sense.

All of the 'time=water' examples Mike gave are from ST.

Well, I don't remember any sitcoms that did time-screwing like YOH, but the idea of a guy running around with a time-eraser weapon did make for a great episode of Red Dwarf .

"Serious" sci-fi shows, bleh. Gimme Dwarf and Lexx anyday, they do even wackier stuff and it works.

[CaptJodan]

The damned weapon wasn't consistent with itself, most notably when it supposidly fired on itself. Annorex and his crew should not have existed if it even followed its own logic. Now, of course it's a mild point of handwavium so that the episode can end happily with everyone getting what they want (except, as far as I recall, the Krenim were losing that war with someone and the timeship was what "won" it. So we have to assume that they lose a few months/years later).

[Starglider]

If you believe the dialogue in the show, the Timeship has temporal shields that keep it outside the time-space continuum, which is how the crew hadn't aged a day in 200 years.

That was the single stupidest thing for me. You can rationalise all the rest with hugely complex invented physics and a liberal dose of character stupidity, it's painful, but it is possible. But how the fuck is being 'outside of time' supposed to arrest ageing without affecting any other biological functions, like heartbeat and brain activity?

[ShadowSonic]

The damned weapon wasn't consistent with itself, most notably when it supposidly fired on itself. Annorex and his crew should not have existed if it even followed its own logic. Now, of course it's a mild point of handwavium so that the episode can end happily with everyone getting what they want (except, as far as I recall, the Krenim were losing that war with someone and the timeship was what "won" it. So we have to assume that they lose a few months/years later).

Yeah, that part did get to me too. We're meant to think that since the ship was enveloped first it was erased first, and the instant that happened everyone onboard was affected by the time change before they could be enveloped by the time-erasure and were sent to the lives they'd lead in the new shipless timeline.

And Annorax said that the Rilnar were the Krenim's greatest enemy, not that they were losing the war. In fact, in the new shipless timeline the Krenim Commander told Janeway they were in a dispute with another race over some sectors, I think we're meant to think that the Rilnar are the ones they're in dispute with, so in the new timeline apparently the Krenim found a way to keep things relaitvely minor with the Rilnar for 200 years.

[ShadowSonic]

If you believe the dialogue in the show, the Timeship has temporal shields that keep it outside the time-space continuum, which is how the crew hadn't aged a day in 200 years.

That was the single stupidest thing for me. You can rationalise all the rest with hugely complex invented physics and a liberal dose of character stupidity, it's painful, but it is possible. But how the fuck is being 'outside of time' supposed to arrest ageing without affecting any other biological functions, like heartbeat and brain activity?

I don't know, but I'm just relaying the dialogue of the episode. I suppose you can make up some weird-ass technobabble of how they're not aging as they're caught in the same moment that the Temporal Core went online, but that doesn't solve anything of how they can still function when their internal organs would also be caught in a moment and are "frozen" like their ages.

It would've made more sense for them to just say that Krenim are extremely long lived, and the birthdays Obrist said he had been celebrating were for people "who no longer existed" not "people who have been dead for 200 years"; IE They wiped these people from existence due to their actions, not that they outlived them.

[Patrick Degan]

It's not "time" that's being fired by the weapon. What it did was push you out of the space-time continuum so a new timeline is created where you never existed, and at the same time the weapon also obliterates you.

Even if you somehow did "get pushed out of the space/time continuum", there is no logical means for that act to have erased your entire past existence up to that point. The only way to accomplish what the Krenim weapon was supposedly doing is by resort to the classical Grandfather Paradox scenario —in which you have to actually do the work of going into the past to destroy a person's ancestor before that person is even born. And that is far less goofy than what Annorax's weapon is supposedly doing.

[Patrick Degan]

"Temporal core", "temporal shielding", and "temporal wake" are all just as retarded as "temporal energy". They make it sound as if time is like water; you can shoot it at someone, spill it all over yourself, wear a raincoat to keep it off, or get capsized by a big wave in it.

But if you have your Temporal Surfboard handy, you get a wild ride instead.

[Singular Intellect]

If the Krenim timeship created real changes, then why did its destruction cause everything to revert to the way it was? What model of time travel involves all changes to the timeline reverting automatically upon the death of the traveler?

That was because according to the crew, the time ship actually ended up zapping itself with the temporal weapon, and any target hit this way has all of it's history destroyed as well.

That really makes sense to anyone? If you blow up a weapon, it fires on itself before it dies?

It made perfect sense to me, although "fired upon itself" doesn't seem accurate. Whatever effect the time ship employs with it's weapon system apparently was triggered by the reactor on the ship itself going critical, so in essence the same thing happened as if it had been fired upon by the weapon. So all the time ship's history, including it's own time manipulation efforts, was 'removed' from history conveniently employing Trek's reset option again.

[Darth Ruinus]

Now, I'm not much for higher science such as quantum mechanics and string theories and such and such, but, how can a ship that is outside of the time-space continuum affect the time space continuum?

[Darth Wong]

It made perfect sense to me, although "fired upon itself" doesn't seem accurate. Whatever effect the time ship employs with it's weapon system apparently was triggered by the reactor on the ship itself going critical, so in essence the same thing happened as if it had been fired upon by the weapon. So all the time ship's history, including it's own time manipulation efforts, was 'removed' from history conveniently employing Trek's reset option again.

Except that this did not happen. The creator and captain of the ship was not erased from history, despite being caught in this blast the same way everything else was.

[Singular Intellect]

It made perfect sense to me, although "fired upon itself" doesn't seem accurate. Whatever effect the time ship employs with it's weapon system apparently was triggered by the reactor on the ship itself going critical, so in essence the same thing happened as if it had been fired upon by the weapon. So all the time ship's history, including it's own time manipulation efforts, was 'removed' from history conveniently employing Trek's reset option again.

Except that this did not happen. The creator and captain of the ship was not erased from history, despite being caught in this blast the same way everything else was.

I'd say that's easily explained as merely the accidental core reaction not encompassing the entire ship, merely the core itself.

After all, it only needs to erase the funky 'temporal core', not the entire ship to achieve the same effect.