Krenim?

[Singular Intellect]

Now, I'm not much for higher science such as quantum mechanics and string theories and such and such, but, how can a ship that is outside of the time-space continuum affect the time space continuum?

Chalk it up to Trek merely being in the same catagory as comics and other ridiculas material that pretends to deal with 'real' concepts.

Trek is only 'science' fiction so far as they throw scientific terms around, and extremely badly to boot.

[Stark]

But if you have your Temporal Surfboard handy, you get a wild ride instead.

Pan-dimensional surfboard.

If it's 'outside time', then wouldn't erasing itself either not work or not erase all it's previous activities? After all, it's outside causality.

[ShadowSonic]

Its Temporal shielding that kept it outside the Time/Space Continuum had been disabled before it was erased, that's why it was affected by its own weapon.

[mr friendly guy]

Now, I'm not much for higher science such as quantum mechanics and string theories and such and such, but, how can a ship that is outside of the time-space continuum affect the time space continuum?

Chalk it up to Trek merely being in the same catagory as comics and other ridiculas material that pretends to deal with 'real' concepts.

Trek is only 'science' fiction so far as they throw scientific terms around, and extremely badly to boot.

I always thought it was its weapon which could affect the space time continuum by entering it from outside. To use an analogy, a submarine could be outside a country's territory, yet affect it by launching a missile into that coun try.

[Starglider]

I always thought it was its weapon which could affect the space time continuum by entering it from outside. To use an analogy, a submarine could be outside a country's territory, yet affect it by launching a missile into that coun try.

Which could have worked ok (in a soft sci-fi way) if the writers had thought it through properly, maybe run it past a technical advisor or even a real sci-fi author, but they didn't.

[mr friendly guy]

It made perfect sense to me, although "fired upon itself" doesn't seem accurate. Whatever effect the time ship employs with it's weapon system apparently was triggered by the reactor on the ship itself going critical, so in essence the same thing happened as if it had been fired upon by the weapon. So all the time ship's history, including it's own time manipulation efforts, was 'removed' from history conveniently employing Trek's reset option again.

Except that this did not happen. The creator and captain of the ship was not erased from history, despite being caught in this blast the same way everything else was.

If the main weapon is backfiring, wouldn't the weapon be the first thing to be erased from existence? Following from this, no weapon => no functioning ship => no need for Annorak to be there on a time ship which was a failure => he won't be caught in the blast => Annorak is still alive.

This is assuming that the blast didn't hit everyone on the ship at the same time.

[Darth Wong]

If the main weapon is backfiring, wouldn't the weapon be the first thing to be erased from existence? Following from this, no weapon => no functioning ship => no need for Annorak to be there on a time ship which was a failure => he won't be caught in the blast => Annorak is still alive.

This is assuming that the blast didn't hit everyone on the ship at the same time.

Since when does an uncontrolled explosion distribute its output in such a selective way? The level of apologist nonsense that people will trot out for that idiotic episode astounds me. It's stupid bullshit. Accept it. Hell, why weren't the plans and ideas for the weapon erased too? The only thing that happened different in the "fixed" timeline was that Annorak decided to go party with his wife instead of continuing to work. Why wouldn't he just continue later? That "fixed" timeline works far better as a simple alternate or parallel universe than as the result of the weapon erasing itself from history.

[Jark]

Well the weapon could selectively fire upon certain things and only affect part of said things. For example when it fired on a planet, it could erase the specific species that developed on that planet, but not have to erase the entire planet to accomplish its goal.

Maybe it was some sort of selective firing that occured on the ship when Voyager plowed into it? Of course some of the alternate theories being tossed around above are good as well, like the weapon just erased itself, which would thusly undo everything.

[ShadowSonic]

The things on Annorax's datapd at the end weren't the blueprints for the ship, they were just some temporal calculations he was working on at the time that may or may not have ultimately led to the Timeship. Presumably in the timeline seen at the end he just decided that his idea was too risky (or his wife talked him out of it) and abandoned those calculations and thus the blueprints for the Timsehip would never come to be.

So yeah, the blueprints and most of the ideas (aside from some random calculations) were all erased.

[Darth Wong]

The things on Annorax's datapd at the end weren't the blueprints for the ship, they were just some temporal calculations he was working on at the time that may or may not have ultimately led to the Timeship. Presumably in the timeline seen at the end he just decided that his idea was too risky (or his wife talked him out of it) and abandoned those calculations and thus the blueprints for the Timsehip would never come to be.

So yeah, the blueprints and most of the ideas (aside from some random calculations) were all erased.

So Annorax was already a middle-aged man at the time he first started making "random calculations" that might someday lead to the design of this ship? That's even more retarded than before, unless these people naturally live for hundreds of years (which, according to the story, they don't). Just how long was the process of going from vague theory to established science and then to conceptual design, practical design, prototypes, and then large-scale implementation supposed to take? About as long as it takes to build a fucking condominium?

[CaptJodan]

And Annorax said that the Rilnar were the Krenim's greatest enemy, not that they were losing the war.

In the 2170s, the Krenim Imperium was in decline, due to a losing war with the Rilnar. At that time, Annorax was living on Kyana Prime with his wife. Realizing that their war with the Rilnar could not be won by conventional means, Annorax developed a weapon capable of pushing elements (anything from a molecule to a civilization) out of the space-time continuum, thereby creating an alternate timeline where that element never existed.

We're meant to think that since the ship was enveloped first it was erased first, and the instant that happened everyone onboard was affected by the time change before they could be enveloped by the time-erasure and were sent to the lives they'd lead in the new shipless timeline.

:: You're the one using dialogue to support your arguments.

The core is destablizing. It's going to cause a temporal incursion WITHIN the ship

Mike's right, there's no way to justify the stupid, and I'm willing to suspend a lot more disbelief in this episode than he is.

[brianeyci]

You seem to hold Trek to a very high standard Mike. I don't blame you given sometimes Trek is pompous, and its fans are as well, but it's only 1 hour and I don't expect them to take into account little details like Annorax's age in a television show. In a movie, yeah I'd imagine them hiring a different actor. But even still, you can't really blame the writers for this one, because fast prototypes and fast experimental construction with dangerous technology were a staple of Trek long before the Year of Hell episode. Which happens to be one of the better Voyager episodes.

You have proposed a theory before that once a time traveller gets killed, the changes he attempted or accomplished are reverted, explaining why time travel changes never seem permanent. Maybe we were not seeing the past, but actually the present and the universe corrected itself, as if Annorax had failed to make the machine all these years at all (but the past still happened, just a drastic physical change to the universe to preserve its proper state). It's not like we saw a date. That would explain the age and wouldn't violate logic.

[Darth Wong]

You seem to hold Trek to a very high standard Mike. I don't blame you given sometimes Trek is pompous, and its fans are as well, but it's only 1 hour and I don't expect them to take into account little details like Annorax's age in a television show. In a movie, yeah I'd imagine them hiring a different actor. But even still, you can't really blame the writers for this one, because fast prototypes and fast experimental construction with dangerous technology were a staple of Trek long before the Year of Hell episode. Which happens to be one of the better Voyager episodes.

So I can't blame Trek because they do this kind of idiotic "Oh I have a vague theoretical idea in my head, I can make it reality overniight" bullshit all the time? How the fuck does that diminish the accusation in any way? Are you on drugs?

You have proposed a theory before that once a time traveller gets killed, the changes he attempted or accomplished are reverted, explaining why time travel changes never seem permanent. Maybe we were not seeing the past, but actually the present and the universe corrected itself, as if Annorax had failed to make the machine all these years at all (but the past still happened, just a drastic physical change to the universe to preserve its proper state). It's not like we saw a date. That would explain the age and wouldn't violate logic.

Sure. The point is that you can't take the Trek fans' preferred explanation at face value, because it just doesn't work.

[brianeyci]

Actually I like my idea so much I think I'll outline it for people to rip apart. Well, we know that in film convention that if you have a flashback, usually the date appears to indicate to the audience that it is in actuality a flashback. I'm going to borrow Nitram's idea of the universe correcting itself.

Now, all the universe would have is a parallel timeline to compare to, or many parallel universes. If things deviated from the parallel timeline enough, if certain conditions were met such as the time traveller dying or the time machine getting destroyed, the universe would enact vast physical changes on a large scale to the damaged universe, using the "reference" parallel universe as a baseline.

That would explain why using time travel as a weapon would be difficult. You would have to go out to all those parallel universes and alter them, or alter the one which the universe is using as a reference for that particular one. That would explain the differences in time travel technology. In one parallel universe, the Federation maybe has a 1% chance of developing time travel as a weapon so there's many other parallel universes which do not and the universe can use those as a baseline to correct it. But a race specifically inclined to time travel, like the Krenim, have perhaps 99% of all existing universes which time travel. However, the universe would "find" that unaltered universe, and through massive physical changes eventually revert all universes to their proper state. Just that it would take a lot longer with the Krenim than say the Federation since the majority of parallel universes of Krenim have them as time travellers.

At no time is logic violated, because you aren't actually "going into the past" to do things. You are simply jumping between universes, but eventually the universe will catch up with you and fix all your changes. This is supported by film convention, since true flashbacks are rare and only in cases like the ST:II (hey, I didn't say my idea was perfect.)

So I can't blame Trek because they do this kind of idiotic "Oh I have a vague theoretical idea in my head, I can make it reality overniight" bullshit all the time? How the fuck does that diminish the accusation in any way? Are you on drugs?

I guess you can. I retract all that. You're right, prior stupidity doesn't mean a new writer can't come up and retcon it all out so he's responsible.

[ShadowSonic]

And Annorax said that the Rilnar were the Krenim's greatest enemy, not that they were losing the war.

In the 2170s, the Krenim Imperium was in decline, due to a losing war with the Rilnar. At that time, Annorax was living on Kyana Prime with his wife. Realizing that their war with the Rilnar could not be won by conventional means, Annorax developed a weapon capable of pushing elements (anything from a molecule to a civilization) out of the space-time continuum, thereby creating an alternate timeline where that element never existed.

We're meant to think that since the ship was enveloped first it was erased first, and the instant that happened everyone onboard was affected by the time change before they could be enveloped by the time-erasure and were sent to the lives they'd lead in the new shipless timeline.

:: You're the one using dialogue to support your arguments.

The core is destablizing. It's going to cause a temporal incursion WITHIN the ship

Mike's right, there's no way to justify the stupid, and I'm willing to suspend a lot more disbelief in this episode than he is.

But if they were losing the war, then how come at in the new timeline where the Timeship never existed the Krenim Imperium seemed relatively okay 200 years after the Rilnar conflict?

[CaptJodan]

But if they were losing the war, then how come at in the new timeline where the Timeship never existed the Krenim Imperium seemed relatively okay 200 years after the Rilnar conflict?

Oh come on. Did it take 200 years for Japan to rebuild after being devastated by WWII? Just because they lost a war 200 years ago doesn't mean the balance of power could have shifted again 200 years later, or that their surrender resulted in complete ruin of their society for 200 years. A negotiated peace could have been made, rebuilding projects by the victors to help in relations, whatever.

[ShadowSonic]

I just figured that they calmed things down between the Krenim and Rilnar, and 200 years later they were back to just having some relatively minor territory disputes with them.

[Darth Wong]

I just figured that they calmed things down between the Krenim and Rilnar, and 200 years later they were back to just having some relatively minor territory disputes with them.

The point is that you are saying that X cannot happen because of Y, and when it is pointed out that Y does not necessarily prohibit X, you just handwave. As I said earlier, apologist nonsense. You're starting from a position of wanting it to make sense, even if it doesn't.

[ShadowSonic]

So, all we know is that in Annorax's time the Krenim were losing the war with the Rilnar so he started the Timeship, and in the new timeline where the ship never existed the Krenim are still something of a power (we don't know anything about them really) and they are currently having territorial disputes with someone, Rilnar or Zahl of otherwise, and that they either found a way to negotiate the past war or just recovered from it normally.

[Isolder74]

That's about as silly as the ending for the inquisitor in Red Dwarf except that one is suppose to be funny. The Inquisitor erases himself from the universe thuse returning everything he has dome back to before he messed with anything yet Lister still has his alternate's hand in his pocket at the end.

[ShadowSonic]

And everyone for some reason still remembered all the stuff the Inquisitor did even though he's no longer meant to exist.

[SirNitram]

And everyone for some reason still remembered all the stuff the Inquisitor did even though he's no longer meant to exist.

That's because Red Dwarf is a comedy spoof of sci-fi shows which have stupid ideas like that. It's rather like the reverse of when Star Trek lifted an 'Infinite Speed - Occupy Every Place In The Universe - Transform Occupants Into Animals' engine from Hitchhikers Guide.

[OmegaGuy]

Wait a minute, if the timeship fired on itself, that would mean that it would have never existed, but if it never existed, that would mean that it would never have been able to fire on itself in the first place.

[mr friendly guy]

Since when does an uncontrolled explosion distribute its output in such a selective way? The level of apologist nonsense that people will trot out for that idiotic episode astounds me. It's stupid bullshit. Accept it. Hell, why weren't the plans and ideas for the weapon erased too? The only thing that happened different in the "fixed" timeline was that Annorak decided to go party with his wife instead of continuing to work. Why wouldn't he just continue later? That "fixed" timeline works far better as a simple alternate or parallel universe than as the result of the weapon erasing itself from history.

1. Of course its stupid that the ship misfired, or its explosion somehow duplicates the same effect as the weapon rather than just being destroyed by a non technobabble conventional explosion.

2. I never said, nor do I need the explosion to distribute itself in a selective way. All I need is the weapon to be the first thing destroyed since its presumably the source of the explosion, AND for the reset button to hit at that moment.

So when the explosion causes another jump to a parallel time line that time line would have only have the ship not existing, rather than the whole crew not existing.

3. I know the story has lots of stupid things. I am just saying that Annorax still existing in the resetted timeline after the destruction of his ship is still internally consistent with what "temporal incursions" seem to do.

[Darth Wong]

How can it be "internally consistent" with the effects of "temporal incursions" when we're not entirely sure what those effects are, because they don't really make any sense? The problems inherent in the grandfather's paradox are not limited strictly to the case of killing your own grandfather. Even in the case where you kill someone who is totally unrelated to you, you should not even be able to remember that this person ever existed.

Parallel timelines explain this quite neatly. That cannot be said of the preferred Trekkie explanations of this episode.