Federation in 100 years vs Galactic Empire

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Federation in 100 years vs Galactic Empire

Post by Dark Primus »

You are in total control of the entire Federation organisation. Q has come to warn you the Galactic Empire is coming to invade the ST galaxy in 100 years so you have that time to prepare Federation for war against a huge galactic power.

You start two years after Voyagers return from its long trip through the Delta Quadrant with the technology they brought with them such as Transwarp coils, transphasic torpedoes, batmobile armour and other not so important tech.

This is to be little serious debate so please no “Kill Lameway or Picard” bullshit.


This is my first step:
Kick the Vulcans out from Federation council since they are pacifist and they would slow down the whole development process. If they threaten to break away from Federation in protest then I won’t stop them since the survival of the Federation is at stake and that is far more important than just one world.
If I would try to develop new technologies in secrecy from the rest of the Federation it would be in much smaller scale and it would probably take too much time, so it would be much better if the entire Federation got involved.


I will post more later.
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Post by Cpt_Frank »

100 years won't be enough to ensure victory. You'll need approximately 250-300 years to
a)build a large dedicated military force including ground armies and pure warships
b)acheive technological advancements to be able to compete with imp technology (key research fields: power generation, weapons, FTL drives)
c)conquer large protions of the Galaxy so that you've got an idustrial base which is large enough to produce sufficient numbers of ships to repell the Empire
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Post by Sothis »

Mmmm... not sure how fast the technologies can be developed... the feds need at least transwarp drive (if I recall from ST:3, they have the designs just not the will to use them properly), a new kind of power generation (which will require research time AND time to place onto their fleet), they need to build up a much bigger fleet (which means they're likely to need much more in the way of resources, which will take time to acquire and process).

Whilst transwarp might show up on the scene, and whilst there might be some advances in power-generation (ala development of some of the trinkets Voyager brought back), the Federation still won't be big enough, or strong enough, to hold off the Empire. Plus, one has to hope that the Federations rival governments don't get jealous of all this fancy tech being developed and mount an attack.
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Post by Cpt_Frank »

The problem is two-fold: not only need the Feds make a huge leap forward in technology (one which normally would take thousands of years), but they also need the numbers-they'll have to expand massively, and will have to build a huge fleet.
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Post by Sothis »

The way I see it is this:

Stage 1: Develop transwarp. A speed advantage over your rivals is vital, and give the Federation greater scope for expansion. Basically the Feds can get to all the resource rich systems long before the Roms, Klings or Cards.

Stage 2: Refitting the fleet. Assuming a fleet strength between 2'000 to 3'000 vessels, this will take a while.

Stage 3: Colonization and expansion. The development of new holdings, and new bases to be constructed. Again, time consuming.

Stage 4: We'll assume that research into new modes of power generation have been going on during this expansion (lets say it's taken 25 years to expand to 12 new developed star systems). Now, with new resources, this can be the focus. New ships will also be under construction, and a dedicated ground force as well (IE, tanks, arterilly, even simple things like grenades). Warships and transports will also be needed. Lets say, another 25 years for development of a new power source, but lets also assume they've not had enough time to develop one as strong as the systems on Imperial ships, we'll say half as strong.

So, 50 years have gone by. The Feds now have new star systems and bases, and the fleet has been refitted with this new power source and transwarp drive. A greater number of Defiant-style ships have been developed, their agility likely to be important against the larger Imperial vessels. Larger ships on the scale of Akira and Galaxy class ships will also exist, if not the deisgns themselves. The warp nacelles will no longer stick out like obvious targets, but be built into the body of the ship (if this is possible).

Stage 5: The next 25 years are spent both refining the new technologies, and building up the fleet, using the resources of the new colonies. We'll assume that the Feds have only been able to double their fleet to 6'000 ships though.

Stage 6: Time's up, the invasion happens, and the Feds still lose. They just take more out of the invasion fleet this time.
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Post by Cpt_Frank »

IIRC transwarp is only faster than hyperdrive with fixed conduits.
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Post by Sothis »

Cpt_Frank wrote:IIRC transwarp is only faster than hyperdrive with fixed conduits.
True, but it's still a cut above warp, and will mightily annoy the Romulans and company :D
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Post by Dark Primus »

Most likely true. But think through how far USA have come through the last hundred years in technology.
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Post by Cpt_Frank »

The more advanced the technology is, the longer it will take to acheive more advancement, generally speaking. And remember the SW galaxy had 25000 years to develop the tech to the current state.
In 100 years, SF might make a huge advancement for it's own standards, but it will take much longer for the UFP to be able to compete with SW tech.
But think through how far USA have come through the last hundred years in technology
Not only the USA!!! The whole industrialised world, NOT ONLY THE US! Damn egocentric americans! :wink:
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Post by Dark Primus »

Cpt_Frank wrote:The more advanced the technology is, the longer it will take to acheive more advancement, generally speaking. And remember the SW galaxy had 25000 years to develop the tech to the current state.
In 100 years, SF might make a huge advancement for it's own standards, but it will take much longer for the UFP to be able to compete with SW tech.
But think through how far USA have come through the last hundred years in technology
Not only the USA!!! The whole industrialised world, NOT ONLY THE US! Damn egocentric americans! :wink:
LOL ok the entire world.

But Federation do have some advantages, they will probably know the terrain by the time the Empire gets there. With transwarp they can probably map out much of the galaxy at a much faster rate.

Actually when i come to think of it, the entire galaxy is already mapped out when Tom Paris flew past the warp 10 barrier. Star charts of the entire galaxy has been laid out.
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Post by Anarchist Bunny »

Stabilize the warp core so it doesn't blow so easily. Makes the Imp ships have to shoot twice or aim at the core through the shields once they find out where a good place to shoot is.
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Post by Dark Primus »

Deffinatly build a total new warp core design that can take all kinds of pounding without any breeches.

Should add at least four such warp cores for each ship. One for the warp drive (consider they now have transwarp drive i doubt they need warp nacells) But power they do need. Two warp cores to feed the energy for the primary and secondary sheilds, one warp core for the weapons alone. :lol:

boost up the amount of matter and antimatter in photon and quantum torpedoes, so they equal to dozens of gigaton so they have at least a fighting chance.

Add in secret developed phase cloaking for each starship and violate the treaty of Algeron with the Romulans, once they realize Federation has them it would be to late for the Romulans to do anything about it. If possibly add phase cloaking to high yeild quantum warheads if it is possibly, every starship will at least few dozens of those and the possibilities they can be very effective. if they can travel through matter and energy than it might be possible to detonate them inside imperial starships destroying them from the inside out.
And of course making it possible to fire under phase cloak, since the Romulans cant fire while using their cloaks due to the energy drain, and since Federation cloaks are probably based from Romulan design they have to research and make improvements.
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Post by LMSx »

Great, so now the Federation has to fight TWO foes, one with superior technology and one with superior knowledge of the galaxy.

Can they even develop phase-cloak? I thought it was a lost tech.
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Post by Dark Primus »

LMSx wrote:Great, so now the Federation has to fight TWO foes, one with superior technology and one with superior knowledge of the galaxy.

Can they even develop phase-cloak? I thought it was a lost tech.
Yes they can. TNG "Pegasus" shows the Federation has the ability to develope phase cloaking technology and so does the Romulans, can't remember the name of the Romulan episode.
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Post by CJvR »

"You are in total control of the entire Federation organisation."
Good, then don't start by destabilizing it. If I'm in total control the pacifists arn't.

"Q has come to warn you the Galactic Empire is coming to invade the ST galaxy in 100 years so you have that time to prepare Federation for war against a huge galactic power."
He must have brought some good info on the empire to be taken seriously so we know the empires strenghts.

"You start two years after Voyagers return from its long trip through the Delta Quadrant with the technology they brought with them such as Transwarp coils, transphasic torpedoes, batmobile armour and other not so important tech."
Useful for kickstarting a few reaserch programs.


1: Get allies. Get the Klingons onboard for the fight. Get the Cardassians by supporting them against the Breen and aid in their reconstruction efforts, we will need them later. The new kinder Ferengi will be important even if they don't contribute much to the actual fighting. Getting alles will lessen fears of the sudden Federal military buildup. The Romulans would be nice to get onboard but...

2: Build shipyards and large ships with 100+ year lifespann that can be refited later with new tech. Leave mass produced stuff to the last decades. Make sure refitting ships won't requre space at your construction yards. Use the Socialist economic system in the Federation for something it might be good at, slashing the standard of living in favor of the military industrial complex.

3: Bring section 31 in from the cold and give them the task of countering the empire. Setup and prepare for assymetrical warfare, resistance and terrorist cells. Disperse our assets, production, CCCCI etc... away from the easily targeted core systems so that attacking these worlds will gain the empire nothing of military value.

4: Make sure that we allways have combat experience in the fleet, a few minor wars to train the officer corps against minor local hostiles. Don't get involved in any major wars, they are to destructive. Train the population and lay the foundations for a massive rejection of the empire. Use PR to make sure that the people don't become to whiny but wait as long as possible to reveal the tru threat.

5: Seek a diplomatic solution to the problem. Just how inevitable is this war? If it is only the emperor on Corusant making beligerant noises the imperial policy could only be a heartbeat away from altering. Look for allies in the empire - how do the contact happen? Might we be able to slip some agents into the empire before that event?

6: Technology, get technology capable of fighting the empire with some hope of success. The most vital points are to cancel the murdeous hyperdrive advantage and firepower of the empire. Getting guns capable of hurting the ISDs on ships able to keep up with them without beein vaporised by the secondaries are critical if we are even to attempt to fight a regular campaign.
If we can't get that technology switch the effort to guerilla warfare, allow the occupation of the Federation and steal the technology instead. Use the dispersed infrastructure to refit/reconstruct the remaining fleet start a rebellion.
The Voyager toys are nice but far from enough. The tech prio-list IMO is:
1-Hyperdrive (Transwarp, slipstream etc) something capable of keeping up.
2-Firepower nothing specific about the type but we need more of it!!! Temporal compressors for phasers and shield penetrators for torps to maximise the firepower we do have.
3-Power generation. Todays systems, even with a ceturys improvement, probably won't be enough if we are to have any chanse of success.
4-Develop ships capable of warp vs sublight combat.
5-Ship survival. DO SOMETHING about the warp cores. Perhaps adapt transporter technology to convert matter directly to energy so we can scrap the damn antimatter bomb mounted in every ship.
6-Timetravel - it is possible even if we needed a few more centuries to make it work, lets see if we can cut that time somewhat. Even if we can't build UTS Relativity evel limited TT ability would be an important strategic and tactical advantage.
7-Other nifty gadgets. Phased cloak (let the Klingons do the work so the Roms don't get too pissedoff). Recreating the Genesis project - as a weapon this time, no terraforming BS. Get the nova maker from the Dominion or recreate the device, small nasty weapon for a terrorist campaign in the empire.


Ultimatly all our efforts are useless. As long as the Empire is determined to pay the buchers bill there is nothing we can do that will prevent the eventual conquest of our galaxy. Therefore we must take the war to the Empire, more specificly the Emperor himself and the central authority in the goverment structure. Destroying that structure centered on a few individuals can radicaly shift Imperial policy or even topple the Empire and that is our only realistic hope for victory.
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Post by Cpt_Frank »

to point 6:
Time travel is not allowed since it only shifts you to another time line ie it's running away.
Destroying that structure centered on a few individuals can radicaly shift Imperial policy or even topple the Empire and that is our only realistic hope for victory.
Are you talking about assassinating the Emperor? GREAT idea. The only things you'll have to do is:
-get to Coruscant
-get to the Imperial palace without guards killing you
-get to the Emperor without being slaughtered by the imperial guard
-actually kill the Emperor, a Sith Lord, a man who can forsee things, and shoot lethal lightnings with his bare hands.
EASY job.
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Post by CJvR »

to point 6:
Time travel is not allowed since it only shifts you to another time line ie it's running away.


Who care about timelines? Knowing where the Imps will strike and with what does not change your present, it alters your future. Altering the future is what we are trying to do here!!!

btw when the full might of the empire goes over the top running away is the smart choice!

Are you talking about assassinating the Emperor? GREAT idea. The only things you'll have to do is:
That would be the best option.
-get to Coruscant
Possible provided our new engine tech works.
-get to the Imperial palace without guards killing you
-get to the Emperor without being slaughtered by the imperial guard
-actually kill the Emperor,
We are not restricted to cutting Palpatines throat in out options. Leveling significant sections of Corusant is an option, so is it's outright destruction (as long as Plapy resides there).
a Sith Lord, a man who can forsee things, and shoot lethal lightnings with his bare hands.
I thought you said temporal manipulation was cheating! btw Palpys precognition isn't fool proof - allways in motion is the future (especially when we deliberatly stirr the pot!!!)
EASY job.
Compared to defeating the Imperial military it's patheticaly simple!
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Post by Mr. B »

If the Federation undertook this military buildup the Roms and Kilngs would think it is aimed at them. If they told the Roms/Klings about the Empire they would not believe you, and they would trust Q less. This leads to all out war and leaves all 3 empires depleted but the Federation on top. By this time they would only have about 75 years left. Then if you could get the rest of the AQ races on board and give them the transwarp/batmobile/transphasic torps technology. With the destruction of all the old ships in the R/K war they would have to rebuild the fleet with newer warships.
And the ground forces would have to start from scratch and would not likely be ready in 75 years.

But the Empire still manages to crush the Federation albiet with more casualties and more lost ships. But he Death Star becomes the clinching point. Nothing can stand up to something like that.
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Post by Dark Primus »

Mr. B wrote:
But the Empire still manages to crush the Federation albiet with more casualties and more lost ships. But he Death Star becomes the clinching point. Nothing can stand up to something like that.

Maybe Phased cloaked torpedoes could. I don't see a reason that would be stopped. Maybe a hundread such torpedoes would be enough, all of them targeting the center of the station. Just think of the possibilities.

Or the tech Dominion were using to destroy a star. When the DS enters a solar system destroy the star turning it into a supernova destroying the DS. They better hope the DS is not fast enough to escape the blast. But the problem is they must know the location of the DS first.
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Post by Cpt_Frank »

I thought you said temporal manipulation was cheating! btw Palpys precognition isn't fool proof
Forseeing things is not the same thing as time travel.
And his precognition was good enough to set up a very good trap for the rebels at endor, which worked well. If assassinating the Emperor is so easy, then the Rebels would have done it long ago.
And Jedi/Sith precognition works very well if you only want to look a few seconds into the future. The Jedi/Sith's extreme reflexes are nothing but forseeing the enemy's moves and reacting accordingly.
Maybe Phased cloaked torpedoes could. I don't see a reason that would be stopped. Maybe a hundread such torpedoes would be enough, all of them targeting the center of the station.
Doubtful if such a thing is possible. But the again we're talking about the future...
Or the tech Dominion were using to destroy a star. When the DS enters a solar system destroy the star turning it into a supernova destroying the DS. They better hope the DS is not fast enough to escape the blast. But the problem is they must know the location of the DS first.
Assuming of course, the DS doesn't get there is someone working around at the sun to make it go nova. The DS's sensors should be good enough to detect such a thing.
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Post by CJvR »

If assassinating the Emperor is so easy, then the Rebels would have done it long ago.
In the main timeline they did just that! Palpatine died and the Empire fell appart. The Rebels never defeated the Imperial militarily.

And Jedi/Sith precognition works very well if you only want to look a few seconds into the future. The Jedi/Sith's extreme reflexes are nothing but forseeing the enemy's moves and reacting accordingly.
That's why planet level destruction is acceptable to nail Palpy. Sith reflexes and a few seconds warning will not be useful when the Genesis device go off a few miles away.
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Post by Howedar »

Assuming that the DS were in, say, Earth orbit, it would have 8 minutes to avoid a supernova. That ought to be enough.
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Post by Darth Yoshi »

CJvR wrote:If assassinating the Emperor is so easy, then the Rebels would have done it long ago.
In the main timeline they did just that! Palpatine died and the Empire fell appart. The Rebels never defeated the Imperial militarily.

And Jedi/Sith precognition works very well if you only want to look a few seconds into the future. The Jedi/Sith's extreme reflexes are nothing but forseeing the enemy's moves and reacting accordingly.
That's why planet level destruction is acceptable to nail Palpy. Sith reflexes and a few seconds warning will not be useful when the Genesis device go off a few miles away.
1. Not true. The only rebel to get close enough to the Emperor was Luke, and his attempt failed. Vader killed the Emperor.
2. You're assuming that the Federation will be able to get through Courscant's shields. Shields which, I might add, can stop BDZ level firepower. Also, if you think that the Feddies will sneak a few shots in before the shield goes up, remember that Coruscant's planetary shields are always up, at least under Imperial rule (Ref. SOTE and X-Wing: Rogue Squadron).
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Post by CJvR »

The only rebel to get close enough to the Emperor was Luke, and his attempt failed. Vader killed the Emperor.
One major factor in the entire Endor operation was the chance to nail Palpy since he personaly was monitoring the completion of DS2. The attack on the DS2 and the throne room duel proceeded independently of eachother so even if Palpy had gotten a new diciple his survival was seriously in doubt.


You're assuming that the Federation will be able to get through Courscant's shields. Shields which, I might add, can stop BDZ level firepower.
No, although if they could it would be great! Sneaking a planet destroying weapon onto a world with as dense traffic as Courosant shouldn't be impossible and would bypass the need for suiccidal frontal assaults.

Instead of using a sniper to kill Kennedy we nuke Dallas, if the weapon is available then it is alot harder to defend against or even survive such an attack.
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Post by Mr. B »

CJvR wrote:
Instead of using a sniper to kill Kennedy we nuke Dallas, if the weapon is available then it is alot harder to defend against or even survive such an attack.
So youre saying the Rebels should use a Death Star to take out Palpy. :roll:
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