32 Reasons why PCs are better than Macs....

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Post by RThurmont »

Who pays credit? I didn't think anyone would be able to reverse an arbitrary payment, however. Isn't that just for stolen cards etc?
Well, with bank/debit cards in the US, and with many credit cards IIRC, it also applies to fraud. The proceedure would be to return your PC to the store (by leaving it there), and then you would contact your bank, disclose to them the situation, and then they would take action, by first crediting the money back to your account, and then suing the merchant.

A merchant giving you a defective computer and refusing to repair it, exchange it, or give you a refund for it in a timely manner would be an example of fraud, and so you'd be able to get a refund without difficulty.

A friend of mine earlier this year had a really annoying problem with Time Warner Cable. She paid a bill with them via debit card, and the money was taken, but Time Warner refused to acknowledge the validity of the payment and attempted to force her to pay the bill twice. She contacted her bank, who reversed the debit card transaction for her, and then simply cut Time Warner a check.

Of course, in Australia, things might well be more consumer-hostile. I've seen a number of disturbing reports of really consumer-hostile legislation and attitudse from Australian companies, so if you were to run into this problem there it might be more difficult to deal with. I would hope not, however.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Such a waste of breath. In the business world, this entire debate is a complete non-issue. People think of a particular application they want to run, and then they get whatever machine will run it for the least overall cost. Nobody gives a flying fuck how cool the machine is, which is one of the reasons that shitty beige-box WinPCs dominate the business world. And quite frankly, as a former network sysadmin, I have to say that the more toys, bells, and whistles a machine has, the more headaches the sysadmin will have because the fucking users will be goofing around on the goddamned things all day. Give me an army of users with plain beige-box PCs and neutered multimedia capabilities any day.
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Post by Stark »

RThurmont wrote:Well, with bank/debit cards in the US, and with many credit cards IIRC, it also applies to fraud. The proceedure would be to return your PC to the store (by leaving it there), and then you would contact your bank, disclose to them the situation, and then they would take action, by first crediting the money back to your account, and then suing the merchant.

A merchant giving you a defective computer and refusing to repair it, exchange it, or give you a refund for it in a timely manner would be an example of fraud, and so you'd be able to get a refund without difficulty.

A friend of mine earlier this year had a really annoying problem with Time Warner Cable. She paid a bill with them via debit card, and the money was taken, but Time Warner refused to acknowledge the validity of the payment and attempted to force her to pay the bill twice. She contacted her bank, who reversed the debit card transaction for her, and then simply cut Time Warner a check.

Of course, in Australia, things might well be more consumer-hostile. I've seen a number of disturbing reports of really consumer-hostile legislation and attitudse from Australian companies, so if you were to run into this problem there it might be more difficult to deal with. I would hope not, however.
I see what you mean, vis defective products being covered under fraud provision. It surprises me you've heard consumer-hostile things from AU, however: I don't know much about the banking system (obviously :)) but the ACCC has a good records cracking down on shonky dealers of hardware, and as a reseller it's very useful to be able to name-drop a government agency that will rule all over recalcitrant suppliers if they fail to meet standards of merchantability etc.
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Post by Howedar »

For a project in seventh grade, I made a nasty GeoShitties website that explained why PCs were better than Macs (this is back in the pre-iMac Bad Old Days). It had animated GIFs and everything.

It was ten times the quality of this steaming pile.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Howedar wrote:For a project in seventh grade, I made a nasty GeoShitties website that explained why PCs were better than Macs (this is back in the pre-iMac Bad Old Days). It had animated GIFs and everything.

It was ten times the quality of this steaming pile.
Sounds like you were a keener.

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Post by Praxis »

Darth Wong wrote:Such a waste of breath. In the business world, this entire debate is a complete non-issue. People think of a particular application they want to run, and then they get whatever machine will run it for the least overall cost. Nobody gives a flying fuck how cool the machine is, which is one of the reasons that shitty beige-box WinPCs dominate the business world. And quite frankly, as a former network sysadmin, I have to say that the more toys, bells, and whistles a machine has, the more headaches the sysadmin will have because the fucking users will be goofing around on the goddamned things all day. Give me an army of users with plain beige-box PCs and neutered multimedia capabilities any day.
Being in the IT world now, I completely agree. This debate is pointless if you want a work machine to do nothing but work, especially if you have a team of IT guys to fix it. Heck, Linux is probably better than Windows since you have to fix it less often if you do a good job of setting it up, assuming your software is available.


I'd take a Mac for my home machines any day though. Because on my home machine, all that stuff DOES matter. And considering that the original article was arguing about stuff like "customizable cases", I think it was talking about home users as well.
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Post by Ariphaos »

General Zod wrote:On the other hand locked up ram is a crashed computer.
I've heard a lot of things about Vista but I haven't seen mention of race conditions being significantly more common.
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Post by Ariphaos »

I still hear about the IT politics from my last job. They actually had a program called the "Apple Elimination Project" several years back. Department head simply didn't like macs, and they only really got in the building because a few low-level management types snuck them into the budget for print servers, file servers, and other special-purpose machines.

I don't really think that articles like this really influence those types though.
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Post by The_Saint »

Vendetta wrote:I presume, being an australian mag, they quoted the prices in Australian dollars, which are whittled out of woodchips.
No that would be the the coins in Tasmania, mainland Australia uses tanned wombat skins.

When I started uni I got told by the campus computer store that the uni was getting rid of all macs within three years... four years later and they've been replacing dell pc's in the school of computing with iMacs bootcamped to windows... I managed to get two reasons out of the sys admins.. they're a nice single unit, screen plus comp in a .. well.. screen, takes up less space, easier to secure, easier to see who's hiding the pizza in the lab. Second they're harder to break and easier to fix when someone does manage to do something incredibly stupid.

I'm yet to here of a dramatic increase in memory performance under Vista (haven't looked into it though) but from just a bystnader perspective I've seen Panther on an iBook outperform XP on a dell workstation (new as of two years ago, the iBook was about a year older) at some memory tests... we had to check after XP crashed over some Java recursion and the iBook performed flawlessly on the same task.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

Xeriar wrote:I still hear about the IT politics from my last job. They actually had a program called the "Apple Elimination Project" several years back. Department head simply didn't like macs, and they only really got in the building because a few low-level management types snuck them into the budget for print servers, file servers, and other special-purpose machines.
What the fuck were people doing bringing in their own equipment for things like file servers? That sort of shit should be managed by IT so that backups of the data can be made. And bringing in Macs for shit like print servers strikes me as either an absurd misuse of a good Mac or someone's retarded vendetta to bring in whatever Apple equipment they can even if it's some piece of shit that was made before Altivec got introduced.

Your last job sounds like it was pretty poorly managed.
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Post by General Zod »

Xeriar wrote:
General Zod wrote:On the other hand locked up ram is a crashed computer.
I've heard a lot of things about Vista but I haven't seen mention of race conditions being significantly more common.
Race conditions? Huh? :wtf:

The_Saint wrote: I'm yet to here of a dramatic increase in memory performance under Vista (haven't looked into it though) but from just a bystnader perspective I've seen Panther on an iBook outperform XP on a dell workstation (new as of two years ago, the iBook was about a year older) at some memory tests... we had to check after XP crashed over some Java recursion and the iBook performed flawlessly on the same task.
The problem is that without some type of actual specs this type of anecdotal evidence is nonsense. the Dell could have had a measly 512mb of ram and the iBook could have had 2gb. Dells aren't really a good comparison system anyways given they have a tendency to use substandard components and are at the lower end of the PC market.
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Post by Howedar »

Darth Wong wrote:
Howedar wrote:For a project in seventh grade, I made a nasty GeoShitties website that explained why PCs were better than Macs (this is back in the pre-iMac Bad Old Days). It had animated GIFs and everything.

It was ten times the quality of this steaming pile.
Sounds like you were a keener.

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Sorry, couldn't help it
What's a keener? It's not a term with which I'm familiar.
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Post by J »

Howedar wrote:What's a keener? It's not a term with which I'm familiar.
It's the rather derogative term for "teacher's pet", see also "suck-up" and "butt-kisser".
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Post by Drewcifer »

Cheaper in the long run
The oldest Mac that can run Apple's latest operating system have just calibrated their eighth birthday, yet all but a handful of the oldest Vista-ready PCs were still just kit and components this time last year. Macs are often criticized for being overpriced, but when you spread the cost over their respective working lives, the Mac comes out cheaper than a PC.
I wish this was better known. I have an old 450 MHz G3 from 1998 that runs Tiger rather well, along with Photoshop, the latest browsers, etc. It will bog down if I have a DVD playing and mess with some heavy-duty PS filters at the same time, but it still rocks for everyday use. While I don't use it for intensive production work at this point, it's still a great machine for watching movies, surfing, playing around with Photoshop. I can't imagine trying to run XP on a PC box from '98 in any useful fashion.

Another cool thing is that I got Win98 to run in emulation on the G3. Like molasses in the winter, but it does boot and run and I can restart it etc. And the funny thing is, it was insanely simple. I downloaded a disk image, dragged the emulator application to my hard drive, double-clicked it, put in the Win98 disk and 30 minutes later, voila! Mind you, running Win98 on a G3 isn't useful, but it was a fun learning project. (I tried to install XP too, but it always hangs halfway through GUI setup and I've never bothered to dig in and find out why. Probably looking for a device or driver or service that's never going to be there) And of course, getting the PPC version of OS X to run on an XP box is possible, but it sounds like a nightmare: installing and configuring code libraries a few times before you can even think about running the OS X installer. I may try it some day though. For fun. Is my geek showing yet?

But back to the point of this thread, I'm long since over playing the OS pissing contest. Each OS has its respective strengths and faults, and I boot to whichever OS I need to get my work done in.
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Post by Howedar »

J wrote:
Howedar wrote:What's a keener? It's not a term with which I'm familiar.
It's the rather derogative term for "teacher's pet", see also "suck-up" and "butt-kisser".
Ah. Nope, she was a Mac fan.
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Post by Netko »

Drewcifer wrote:I wish this was better known. I have an old 450 MHz G3 from 1998 that runs Tiger rather well, along with Photoshop, the latest browsers, etc. It will bog down if I have a DVD playing and mess with some heavy-duty PS filters at the same time, but it still rocks for everyday use. While I don't use it for intensive production work at this point, it's still a great machine for watching movies, surfing, playing around with Photoshop. I can't imagine trying to run XP on a PC box from '98 in any useful fashion.
Imagine it. I had until relatively recently a 366Mhz K6II based laptop from around that vintage which in its latest years had its RAM boosted up to 256mb (from 64mb) and with that ran Win XP very usably for light web surfing, mail reading and text editing. I wouldn't put it as quite as usable as what you describe, but that is mainly a function of RAM. It would still be used in the fashion I described if the screen hadn't finally failed (which most likely was do to someone stupid - me - placing some rather heavy stuff on it by accident).
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Post by Ace Pace »

General Zod wrote:
Xeriar wrote:
General Zod wrote:On the other hand locked up ram is a crashed computer.
I've heard a lot of things about Vista but I haven't seen mention of race conditions being significantly more common.
Race conditions? Huh? :wtf:
He thinks you're talking about Programming race conditions. In this case however I think you were talking about bad RAM? In either case, the problem is not more common to Vista then to any other OS.
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Post by AniThyng »

Ace Pace wrote:
General Zod wrote:
Xeriar wrote: I've heard a lot of things about Vista but I haven't seen mention of race conditions being significantly more common.
Race conditions? Huh? :wtf:
He thinks you're talking about Programming race conditions. In this case however I think you were talking about bad RAM? In either case, the problem is not more common to Vista then to any other OS.
I suspect he's under the impression Vista always needs that ram ("locked ram" i.e. unreleasable for other use), rather then paging it to disk when other programs need it more with little performance impact...
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Post by The_Last_Rebel »

This sums up my thoughts on the whole argument nicely.
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Post by General Zod »

AniThyng wrote:
Ace Pace wrote:
General Zod wrote: Race conditions? Huh? :wtf:
He thinks you're talking about Programming race conditions. In this case however I think you were talking about bad RAM? In either case, the problem is not more common to Vista then to any other OS.
I suspect he's under the impression Vista always needs that ram ("locked ram" i.e. unreleasable for other use), rather then paging it to disk when other programs need it more with little performance impact...
Er, no. I'm using Vista and I've somehow managed to crash it a number of times when I wanted to run one app but other applications were taking up too much, so Vista tended to freak out over that. And I wasn't specifying Vista or other operating systems, I was talking about OSes in general. :P
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Post by Drewcifer »

Netko wrote:Imagine it. [snip] .. a function of RAM...
That's awesome - and good to know. I'd much rather folks pay me to get an older system running usefully again than spending that money on a new machine that they don't really need just for email and surfing :D

and ya, the G3 in question has a gig of RAM. That definitely helps!
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Post by Ariphaos »

Uraniun235 wrote:What the fuck were people doing bringing in their own equipment for things like file servers? That sort of shit should be managed by IT so that backups of the data can be made. And bringing in Macs for shit like print servers strikes me as either an absurd misuse of a good Mac or someone's retarded vendetta to bring in whatever Apple equipment they can even if it's some piece of shit that was made before Altivec got introduced.

Your last job sounds like it was pretty poorly managed.
No no, not sneak in personal equipment (against the law anyway). I said in the budget - sneak in personal desires into the budget. Ie, "Well we have three hundred thousand dollars for the department hardware budget this year, what do we need?" "Several servers." "Hey, can I get a mac for this one?" "Fine..."

Not that I'm claiming it was well managed.
General Zod wrote:Race conditions? Huh?
Race conditions and deadlocks (which is what I thought you meant) are a fairly critical part of multithreaded OS design. All joking about MS programmers aside, it's a very old problem and memory management in particular is going to be vetted rather thoroughly.

Anyway, using all of the RAM as a cache isn't necessarily a bad idea - you just flag a region as overwritable when you need it an your cache gets a bit smaller. Woo. It's doubtful that that is why your Vista installation crashes.
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Post by Isil`Zha »

Darth Wong wrote:Such a waste of breath. In the business world, this entire debate is a complete non-issue. People think of a particular application they want to run, and then they get whatever machine will run it for the least overall cost. Nobody gives a flying fuck how cool the machine is, which is one of the reasons that shitty beige-box WinPCs dominate the business world. And quite frankly, as a former network sysadmin, I have to say that the more toys, bells, and whistles a machine has, the more headaches the sysadmin will have because the fucking users will be goofing around on the goddamned things all day. Give me an army of users with plain beige-box PCs and neutered multimedia capabilities any day.
Hell, do what we do, neuter anything and everything they don't need for their jobs.
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Post by ThatGuyFromThatPlace »

Equally stupid. It's a slot loading drive, there's nothing wrong with running that through the software as there's no tray to stick a button on. And since you can open it during boot I don't see the complaint.

Equally stupid. It's a slot loading drive, there's nothing wrong with running that through the software as there's no tray to stick a button on. And since you can open it during boot I don't see the complaint.
Right, so when my Powersupply gives up the ghost (or any of the other myriad of problems that could keep a Mac from booting properly) I should have to send the computer back to Apple with my disk still inside because I can't just stick a pin in the drive to open it and unless I've been much misinformed, installing a new powersupply is something that can only be done by certified Mac technicians at their ultrasecure lab in Area-51.


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Post by Uraniun235 »

Xeriar wrote: No no, not sneak in personal equipment (against the law anyway). I said in the budget - sneak in personal desires into the budget. Ie, "Well we have three hundred thousand dollars for the department hardware budget this year, what do we need?" "Several servers." "Hey, can I get a mac for this one?" "Fine..."

Not that I'm claiming it was well managed.
Yeah, it sounds like your job's IT department is in a real mess if they can't even control what servers get placed on the network.
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