Are slow Y-wings a brain bug?

[Publius]

(Honestly, at Yavin, does it ever show the Y-wings as been slower or even less manuverable, despote the "Toughness" difference?).

They're never in a situation where less manueverability was shown. Sure, they get run down by Vader no problem, but everyone did. ANH gave off the impression of complete Imperial military superiority.

This is, however, something that the EU rapidly ignored with its insistence on portraying the Empire as both cheap and incompetent. Hence the idea that a cash-strapped insurgency hiding on the periphery of civilization would have far better equipment and training than a militaristic superpower bestriding a whole galaxy like a colossus.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

The obvious question that raises for me is, why does the large and professional Imperial Starfleet not use Y-wings itself?

I tend to opt for the slow Y-wing, because I picture it as belonging to the late clone war/early post-war generation, as an immediate successor in the fighter-bomber role to the ARC-170- the date Wookiepedia gives is 18 years before Yavin.

The ROTS;ICS states, as far as I recall, a maximum straight line acceleration of 2,634 'g' for the ARC-170, which is the same breed of fighter-bomber the Y-wing is supposed to be.
That is 366 'g' less than it's own carriers. If another, well documented, fighter sharing the same operational role is anything to go by, speed should not be a dominant design feature for the Y-wing.

The Y-wing is described as widespread throughout the galaxy, as local defence on many planets that are officially part of the Empire, as well as unofficial and illegal forces, but not (barring destabilisation operations) in the Imperial Army or Starfleet.

To me that implies that it's unsuitable for army and fleet use- the sort of fighter that would be found in the hands of "a cash-strapped insurgency hiding on the periphery of civilisation".

It also means it's design role- or the role it found itself in- involves a lot of atmospheric flight, launching and landing anyway, and maintenance by variously qualified third parties in less than ideal conditions. A rough-field capable fighter, effectively. All of which points to heavily built and consequently slow, unless it's a lot more expensive than it looks.

The Nebulon-B has a huge engine area, most of the aft surface, but it's seldom described as being anything other than paralytically slow; as an escort ship, this makes sense- long periods of low rate acceleration, low intensity, very long lifespan. Something like that may be true for the Y-wing.
All right, that is speculation, but I hope at least it's coherent speculation.

And just to add another line to the @ aircraft comparison melee, I'll thow in the MiG-23. [/quote]

[Ford Prefect]

You know, I remember in one of the Han Solo trilogy books, Y-wings were described as being quick and agile, or words to that effect.

[Elfdart]

(Honestly, at Yavin, does it ever show the Y-wings as been slower or even less manuverable, despote the "Toughness" difference?).

They're never in a situation where less manueverability was shown. Sure, they get run down by Vader no problem, but everyone did. ANH gave off the impression of complete Imperial military superiority.

This is, however, something that the EU rapidly ignored with its insistence on portraying the Empire as both cheap and incompetent. Hence the idea that a cash-strapped insurgency hiding on the periphery of civilization would have far better equipment and training than a militaristic superpower bestriding a whole galaxy like a colossus.

The only real world example I can think of is Crazy Horse vs. Custer, when the Sioux had Winchesters while the 7th Cavalry was mostly armed with muzzle loaders. Like Tarkin, Custer thought it was going to be his "moment of triumph", but instead died real dumb.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

I'll take your word for it; but, unavoidably, those books were written a long time before we got a good look at the Clone Wars as they really happened, before even WEG's take on it all- before ROTJ for that matter.

They probably were fast and agile, by the standards of what the state of the art at the time was thought to be; before anyone had seen A-wings and TIE Interceptors on screen, never mind Actises, Nimbus(Nimbii?), Aethersprites and Vultures.

For a more in universe consistent explanation, Han- who is established as a character with the knowledge base to be reasonably believable on these things, is he not?- might simply have been comparing apples to apples.

Considering what civil and planetary defence/mercenary fighters must have been available before and during the early Clone Wars- the likes of the Toscan 8-Q and Hydrotii Zebra- the Y-wing would be a massive leap ahead in capability.

I don't think that makes them the equal of a dedicated interceptor, though. I have no basis whatsoever for this number, but if I had to guess at an actual value for their acceleration, I'd expect somewhere in the 2900-3000 'g' range. A significant improvement over the ARC-170, but not the equal of the smaller fighters that the Imperial Starfleet prefers.

[The_Saint]

So if one sticks to the movies and some of the older books the Y-wing/X-wing partnership is very similar to the Hurricane/Spitfire duo... only minor differences, one just suffers from bad press..

As for the seemingly odd Alliance using better craft vs Imperials with shoddy tiny tech I always saw that as a brainbug... During the fighter combat of ANH and ROTJ it appears to be roughly a 1:1 kill ratio for alliance vs imperials so I figured where the imperials had planets stamping out pilots by the millions they were equiping them with cheap, small, capable F-16 analogs whereas the alliance with an all volunteer fighter force needs to keep it's pilots alive as long as possible so shells out for the best it can have constructed ie the stolen/given away plans for Su-27 analogs. One could argue that Su-27's are older less technologically advanced fighters but with a capable pilot behind the stick then the F-16's will be relying on swarm tactics... which is what the imperial navy is shown to do.

[The_Saint]

Actually thinking further on the matter of imperial craft vs alliance craft (getting a tad off topic but only for a bit) I can almost see how the "slow y-wing" & "cheap and nasty tie's" came about...

Initially, ANH and early books, we see the X-wing and Y-wing's as heavy/large fighters on a par with the light tie fighter. Let's give these the analogs of Su-27's and F-35 JSF's, one's a heavy multirole fighter, one's a lightweight dogfighter. With the advent of the later books, comics, game stats (not computer games) and especially the X-wing series (and ignoring the supposed superior skill level of Rogue pilots) there is a move towards more named characters (on the alliance side) and hence a heavier loading of throwaway imperial pilots... as the imperials need an excuse for such losses the tie has lost favour (in the eyes of writers and been retconned back to a F-16A whereas the recruiting poster model X wing has been brought up to Su 35 standard... The characters need a craft to whinge about and look down upon, the story needs a precursor to the X-wing, a precursor has to be obviously technologically inferior.. hence we have crippled Y-wings and Tie's.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

Compare the Actis to the TIE/ln. The Actis is larger, more elaborate, more expensive, and higher tech looking- but in terms of combat performance, the TIE carries heavier guns, on a lighter frame, with at least equal speed and agility.

It doesn't look as flashy, because some of the instrumentation is moved inside the pilot's helmet- more easily alterable and upgradeable than wired into the fighter?- and some of the flight control work is transferred to the carrier vessel, taking some of the intellectual burden off the pilots and allowing them to fight more effectively. Less flash, more practicality.

The TIE is the direction the Imperial navy wanted to go in; it is a highly focused gun platform. It is simple enough to be deployed by the billions, with no hyperdrive or combat shield to go wrong, poor sensors, I think, not brilliant at independent deployments, no strike capability- but kilo for kilo, credit for credit, it is probably the most efficient killer out there.

One on one, an X or Y wing may be good enough to achieve an even loss rate with half-trained, half-crazed bushwhacker pilots against professional Imperial pilots, but not on the scale the Imperial Starfleet has to think in- set twenty million credits' worth of TIE against twenty million credits' worth of X and Y, I would expect an awful lot of dead alphabet soup.

On the other hand, the rebel fighters all have a warhead load, giving them some antiship capability.
I reckon the biggest mystery about the Y-wing is why it was ever allowed to be produced. Who allowed the design and sale of a fighter/attack craft with a heavy enough payload to be a real threat to the Starfleet's customs frigates and patrol corvettes? Two years after it's founding, did the Empire simply have too much to do to clamp down as hard as it should have?

[NecronLord]

We're assuming it was originally designed for planetary militaries there. It could just as easily be a modified CSA or GAR design, after all...

[phongn]

The TIE is the direction the Imperial navy wanted to go in; it is a highly focused gun platform. It is simple enough to be deployed by the billions, with no hyperdrive or combat shield to go wrong, poor sensors, I think, not brilliant at independent deployments, no strike capability- but kilo for kilo, credit for credit, it is probably the most efficient killer out there.

IIRC, the sensor and fire control systems are considered superior to what the Rebellion can afford. And the lack of shields means less mass and more energy can be dedicated to engines, too - it isn't necessarily a bad tradeoff.

I reckon the biggest mystery about the Y-wing is why it was ever allowed to be produced. Who allowed the design and sale of a fighter/attack craft with a heavy enough payload to be a real threat to the Starfleet's customs frigates and patrol corvettes? Two years after it's founding, did the Empire simply have too much to do to clamp down as hard as it should have?

There are probably a good number of legitimate customers like sectorial militia that can use long-range strike fighters.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

I would be very surprised if Koensayr hadn't tried to sell the Y-wing to the Imperial Starfleet; the largest and most lucrative contract they could possibly have, they would at least have given it a shot.

I can't find anything about Koensayr to say for sure which side of the Clone Wars they were on; but according to one West End sourcebook, they bult a Lambda-predecessor for the Starfleet, (blurb text being more dependable than the numbers?) as well as other civil self-defence craft- so even if they were Confederation, what was left of them after the end of the war went to work for the Empire on one project at least.

If it entered service two years after Second Coruscant, it probably was under development by then; come to think of it, is there any kind of date available for the TIE Bomber?
If the Y-wing began as a Confederacy or Republic design, it might have served briefly as an interim replacement to the ARC-170 on Imperial flight decks, before being replaced by the TIE Bomber and farmed out to the local defence units.

I doubt it, though. Koensayr's other products include the Dianoga civil/mercenary fighter, the Citadel civilian cruiser and the Sentinel military version of it, and parts for many other designs. They sound willing to take government work if they can get it, but basically dependent on the local planetary defence and independent markets.

They could have tried to sell it to the Starfleet, failed- lost out in competition to Sienar's more heavily armed, slower but simpler and more serviceable TIE Bomber- and, possibly with reworking, sold them to anyone who would buy.

Edit; dammit, that's twice now I've taken too long to post.
Phongn, I was under the impression that the TIE/ln was designed to work with relatively close control from it's carrying vessels or ground station; that this was a deliberate decision, to increase their loyalty by making it harder for them to conspire or defect, and increase their combat efficiency by having the flight controller serve as a virtual WSO, taking some of the load off the pilot.
They do have sensors of their own, of course, and whatever the system is I bet it's something tried and true, of proven reliability.

As far as letting local authorities get effective strike fighters goes, you're right. Two years after Coruscant, there most certainly are targets for them- there are still the Confederation Remnants to worry about. I should have thought of that earlier.

[TC Pilot]

The Imperial disadvantage in fighter tech is kinda misleading. When it became obvious they needed better fighters, rather than swarms of unshielded yet still very manueverable and deadly Fighters and Interceptors, they quickly developed TIE designs like the Advanced and Defenders, both of which were superior to anything the Rebels had.

Unfortunately, that program never got off the ground because its key architect, Grand Admiral Zaarin, stole practically all the ships, prototypes, and went on a rampage blowing up the factories and capturing the scientists who designed the things.

[phongn]

Phongn, I was under the impression that the TIE/ln was designed to work with relatively close control from it's carrying vessels or ground station; that this was a deliberate decision, to increase their loyalty by making it harder for them to conspire or defect, and increase their combat efficiency by having the flight controller serve as a virtual WSO, taking some of the load off the pilot.

Even if they operate under (effectively) GCI, that doesn't prevent them from having highly sophisticated systems. The Russians like to do that, remember, and they've packed some very good sensors (if not as good as the West) onboard (e.g. MiG-31)

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

I don't think there is any real disadvantage, given that they're using the same technological base.
They just use it in different ways; when the Alliance acquired enough money and backing to run it's own underground industries, they went for more of the same with the A and B wing.
Individually expensive, high performance- well, maybe not the B-wing- fighters, lots of metal and credit value poured into each individual craft; all right for state sponsored guerillas, but a hopeless choice in the aftermath.

The Empire makes what I think is the right choice under the circumstances; to divide all that potential value into lots of little bits, to patrol, protect and police the galaxy. You can't divide up a single B-wing to cover half a dozen trouble spots; you can do that with a squadron of TIEs. When they come together again, they form an effective wolfpack.

One solution works, in both defence and attack. One doesn't. No prizes for guessing which the Alliance, later New Republic, picked.

The fact that the Empire can beat the Alliance at it's own game, when it chooses to, reinforces for me the idea that going with the swarm fighter concept was a deliberate policy choice, and probably the right one when the controlling power is trying to rule rather than raid.


There is one other thing, now this is West End fluff, something I remember from years playing with little square dice, but there was a suggestion that the X-wing- that icon of the Alliance- had originally been offered for sale to the Imperial Starfleet.

It was supposed to fill the long range reconnaissance/strike role the Starwing ended up in, and it was obviously not accepted - given that I'm not too sure about this anyway, it would be pure speculation (as opposed to impure speculation, like plucking thrust numbers out of the air by interpolation rather than calculation) to guess why.
Whatever the answer is, it has to be something that doesn't invalidate it for service with the Alliance. Incompatibility with existing doctrine? Bid sabotaged by Sienar? I might be misremembering this, but it's an interesting thought.

Anyway, I think at least earlier models of the Advanced/Avenger, based on the bomber-style wing, may be fairly widespread- Dr. Saxton suggests so, and I am more than satisfied to follow his lead.

[TC Pilot]

The fact that the Empire can beat the Alliance at it's own game, when it chooses to, reinforces for me the idea that going with the swarm fighter concept was a deliberate policy choice, and probably the right one when the controlling power is trying to rule rather than raid.

Games like X-Wing and X-Wing: Alliance have exacerbated the myth that TIE Fighters are inferior to their Rebel counterparts. On the contrary, TIEs were fast, nimble craft that a skilled pilot could use to run rings around an opponent. However, most canonical sources pit TIE Fighters against either the best the Rebellion has (often Imperial trained, of course) to offer, or some of the worst of the Empire.

And when a Soontir Fel or Marak Steele goes up against those same Rebel aces, suddenly it's a life-and-death struggle.

Anyway, I think at least earlier models of the Advanced/Avenger, based on the bomber-style wing, may be fairly widespread

They weren't. The TIE Advanced wasn't even in mass-production by ESB, and there's very little evidence to suggest that ships similar to it - keep in mind it was developed to deal with the TIE Corps' qualitative disadvantage - existed beforehand in any significant number.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

Let's see if I can manage to make sense of my own disparate ramblings-
TIE sensor capabilities; I seem to have argued against myself here, which is a good thing because it leads to a case for a more capable TIE.
If the TIE/ln is to be used in the garrison role, which it is, it needs good enough sensors to perform at least the search part of search and rescue, customs inspections, tactical coordination for ground forces(?)- it probably needs it's own sensors less as a fleet service fighter, because then it would benefit from GCI from the ships they fly from, based on the starships' sensor picture.

Actually, I wonder if the electronics are sophisticated enough that a squadron of TIE/ln can link their scanners together and function on the same principle as a synthetic aperture radar?
They have the computing power for it, if the basic sensor technology supports it.

As far as early TIE Avengers, do you really think I'm daft enough to take the Great One's name in vain?

From SWTC;

Lord Vader's personal fighter belonged to this class of long-range (hyperdrive-capable) fighters. It is sometimes regarded as a custom or deluxe design, but this may be just a figment of hindsight, since this class became a source of inspiration for the later, famous Interceptor and Avenger models. This heavy fighter may actually have been a commonplace long-range fighter design used throughout much of the history of the Empire: according to blueprints, the star destroyer Imperator (the first of its class) originally carried a number of unipod bent-wing "TIE assault craft".

It's no tribute to a scientist to unquestioningly take his word for it, but let me put it like this; I would make sure I had a very good case before disagreeing with him.
I personally reckon that these fighters existed, and equipped long range recon squadrons and quick reaction forces; eventually they were replaced or supplemented by the warhead capable Starwing, RF type replaced by FRS, and a later model of the same design, the computer game series' familiar triangle-leading edge winged Avenger.

[Darwin]

Whatever the answer is, it has to be something that doesn't invalidate it for service with the Alliance. Incompatibility with existing doctrine? Bid sabotaged by Sienar? I might be misremembering this, but it's an interesting thought.

From what I recall, the X-Wing had some exotic materials and techniques involved in its construction that, though fine for limited production, was not really viable in $$$ for capability) for mass production of the levels necessary for the Empire.

Then of course the Incom design staff defected, taking their plans and prototypes with them.

[TC Pilot]

As far as early TIE Avengers, do you really think I'm daft enough to take the Great One's name in vain?

Pointless appeals to authority do not do either of you credit.

Lord Vader's personal fighter belonged to this class of long-range (hyperdrive-capable) fighters. It is sometimes regarded as a custom or deluxe design, but this may be just a figment of hindsight, since this class became a source of inspiration for the later, famous Interceptor and Avenger models. This heavy fighter may actually have been a commonplace long-range fighter design used throughout much of the history of the Empire: according to blueprints, the star destroyer Imperator (the first of its class) originally carried a number of unipod bent-wing "TIE assault craft".

Saxton is notably wrong in his assessment of Vader's starfighter. Its proper designation is the TIE Advanced x1, a prototype that never saw mass-production.

It's no tribute to a scientist to unquestioningly take his word for it, but let me put it like this; I would make sure I had a very good case before disagreeing with him.

Canon sources say Vader's TIE starfighter is a prototype (EGTVV, off the top of my head). Therefore, Saxton is wrong.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

Relax, I'm British, we're allowed to be facetious from time to time. You call it a mindless appeal to authority, I call it irony- and maybe a true word spoken in jest.

I reckon the TIE assault craft, or something like it, is a reasonable expectation; again, timing.
The early Empire does have a need for a hyper capable recon fighter; there are the Confederate Remnants to be put down, and given the situation, probably numerous worlds intending to carry on corruption as usual- didn't Thrawn state a proportion of one in eighty problem planets, or was it the Imperial Sourcebook?- which need to be persuaded that the Empire means what it says.

They have the technology, if the late Republic fleet is anything to go by. Even Actis are hyper capable with the booster ring, the ARC-170 has it built in, and the only real technical changes that happen between the prequels and OT are- I think- applications rather than inventions.

The need exists, the capability exists; why assume the obvious failed to happen?

As the Confederate Remnants get caught and killed and the Empire strengthens it's grip, small starship peacekeeping patrols and large non-hyper fighter garrisons would assume higher priority over long range fighter hunting sweeps, and deterrence and flag-waving by large starships becomes the normal mode of operations.

The standard TIE/ln is the basic Imperial fighter not, I reckon, because it's all the Empire can afford or any such reason, but because it's perfectly adequate for the mission the overwhelming majority of the time.

I reckon there are multiple generations of Imperial hyper capable fighter, beginning with the legacies of the Republic, and passing through TIE Assault and Starwing to the Avenger and Defender; they were used when and where the Empire had a need of their capabilities, and not deployed where they were not needed.

Waving the EGTVV- isn't that appealing to authority? To use your own term, mindless.
Which makes more sense; that a major stellar power which inherited a minimum of a hundred thousand and probably tens of millions of hyper capable fighters, forgot how to make them until a crash program twenty years later,
or that for the dominant task of the Imperial Starfleet, to defend and control it's territory, they were only occasionally neccessary, locally deployed sublight fighters being usually enough, and so only occasionally used and seen as being used?

[Publius]

Waving the EGTVV- isn't that appealing to authority? To use your own term, mindless.

False, sir. The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels is evidence. Citing evidence is quite the opposite of appealing to authority. Citing evidence is a sine qua non of rational debate; appealing to authority is an informal fallacy of substituting reputation for evidence. One does not simply dismiss inconvenient evidence as "mindless," sir.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

Yes, I misread that- I was more annoyed than I thought when I typed it up. Mindless instead of a response to 'pointless'- I thought that I was being snapped at, and snapped back. My apologies.

On the EGTVV though, does it not predate the prequels, which are higher level canon and take precedence as a source?

The prequels show large quantities of hyper capable fighters, which found their way into Imperial service.
It is possible that they were simply scrapped or demolished, or retired as their carriers were replaced by newer ships, with no overlap at all, but if their role was not retired with them, something had to fill it.

So, alternatives;
the persistence in service of Republic legacies as the Imperial Starfleet's long range recon/strike fighter element, until that capability is allowed to lapse;

the Empire abolishes the role entirely and fulfills the operational requirement with small starships, the Recon and Skirmish lines of the Imperial Sourcebook, until they are augmented in the OT era by prototype Avengers and Starwings;

multiple mutually supporting solutions to the problem, with the republic-legacy fighters supplemented and eventually replaced by early, hyper capable, TIE-series craft, in support of recon and skirmish lines, until the early TIE Assault- of which Vader rode a customised version- was replaced by the TIE Avenger, or would have been barring treachery.

The first or second options could be true, the second is the take on things the EGTVV seems to support; I prefer the third option, as showing a more consistent force structure and a more active Starfleet, and not less coherent with the movies.

I do not dismiss the EGTVV as a source, but I do suggest that on this particular matter it is contradicted by other sources of higher canonicity and reasonable speculation therefrom.

[Mad]

Games like X-Wing and X-Wing: Alliance have exacerbated the myth that TIE Fighters are inferior to their Rebel counterparts. On the contrary, TIEs were fast, nimble craft that a skilled pilot could use to run rings around an opponent. However, most canonical sources pit TIE Fighters against either the best the Rebellion has (often Imperial trained, of course) to offer, or some of the worst of the Empire.

On the other hand, the best pilots I saw in Internet play with X-Wing Vs. TIE Fighter (and X-Wing: Alliance) chose Imperial craft. Typically the TIE Interceptor. They could run rings around an average Rebel pilot and were incredibly hard to hit.

Of course, more people--likely including authors--played single player (and the original X-Wing game) instead, so they didn't get a chance to see what even game mechanics could allow Imperial craft to do.

[Dark Flame]

The early Empire does have a need for a hyper capable recon fighter; there are the Confederate Remnants to be put down.

Nitpick:
There was only one Confederate "Remnant" to be put down. After the CIS's leaders were killed a deactivation order was sent, and the droid army was deactivated. The only Confederate remaining with any power was Gizor Dellso, who tried to build his own droid army before the 501st Legion eliminated him and his army.

The new Empire may still need a hyperspace capable recon fighter, but not to put down Confederate Remnants.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

All of which is so; but it was 11 BBY before Dellso was finally finished off, and Koensayr, which offered the Y-wing for sale in 18 BBY, had seven years' worth of- to put it fairly cynically- using the Remnants as a bogeyman to boost sales, or if you prefer as a real threat that needed to be countered.

By then, there should be enough of them out there that the spare parts market alone is enough to keep Koensayr happy- the Y-wing is usually described as being one of the galaxy's more numerous fighters.


That, and worlds that had grudges against each other going back to before the Empire, the sort of brushfire war that Zahn has Thrawn describe the Starfleet as protecting the galaxy from itself by keeping down- I think it was in The Last Command.

That planet, you know, that one over there. The one your ancestors fought years of running battles with, piracy and counter-piracy. The one whose moon you landed on, and your people lost some of their best blood trying to take it. The planet you hate.

They have small warships, they have long range proton torpedo capable fighters. You can rely on the Starfleet to protect you, but the rebels are everywhere. Major units might be in chase, on exercise, in drydock. It might be weeks before they bother. They might not even be bothered. Whether your own or the enemy planetary government collects your taxes, as long as they get their cut, do you really think the empire cares?

You need to be able to protect yourselves. You need your own defence and deterrent. You need long range strike fighters. Buy, before it's too late.


As a (hypothetical) sales pitch, that's probably exaggerated and possibly treasonous, but I think the basic idea is discernible.
I also think the Starfleet's performance in police and control duty is much better than that, but I don't reckon a company with a product to sell would be too scrupulous in pointing that out.

[Admiral Drason]

Wouldn't there be alot of Clone Wars fighter craft on the market in this same time period in which the Y wing went on the market. I mean you could probably buy fleets of ARC 170s for dirt cheap from the Empire. So I don't really think that most planets were really lacking any real fire power or long range assault craft.

Mind you these planets would probably have already beefed up their defense forces because of the Clone Wars. If anything we might have a galaxy with to much military hardwear laying around. And thats why the Rebels were able to buy up all of those Y Wings cheap.