Captain Jack Harkness - species?

The Baron · Post by **The Baron** » 2007-07-12 05:11am

So I was wondering what you people think about where Jack's from. Whether you believe he's human from another planet, or an alien.

There seems to be a significant amount of evidence to point to him being alien, but some morons on other discussion boards don't seem to want to believe it, so I thought I'd seek out some old ASVSers and check out their opinions. What I've found so far, in terms of evidence for him being alien is:

Tastes contraceptives in the rain.
When talking about the contraceptives in the rain, says 'Love this planet' in a tone implying he's not from here, which we know anyway.
He is capable of getting pregnant.
He can sense the presence of others from 40+ feet away, when they're not in sight.
Gwen asks where he's from, he gets a very alien look on his face then smiles and says 'All sorts of places.'
Gwen says 'you shouldn't have this' referring to the police databases, Jack says 'You might want to stop saying 'you' and start saying 'we'' Implying that to him referring to collective groups correctly is inherent to his nature. He refers to humans as 'you' many many times. This is important.
Torchwood intro: "The 21st century is when everything changes, and you've got to be ready." 'You've' got to be ready. You, the human race. Not 'We've got to be ready.'
End of Days - he refers to humans as 'You people'.
'Jack's Back' Torchwood Declassified episode, Russell Davies says that Jack has a perspective from outside the human race.
More evidence from the official Torchwood site:
http://www.torchwood.org.uk/html/gadgets/jack.shtml
"EUREKA! We’ve been looking at it from a human perspective (human beings always assume it’s all about them. The most narcissistic race in the universe, I swear. )"

Thoughts?

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2007-07-12 05:35am

I'd guess that he's a hybrid.
In the Empty Child / Doctor Dances the Doctor pointed out that in the 51st century homo/bi/hetero sexuality wasn't really an issue as there's a load of aliens out there to shag and in the episode where the sun explodes Cassandra makes a big deal of claiming to be the last pure human.

It would also partly explain how he turned into the alien looking Face of Boe.

Gwen says 'you shouldn't have this' referring to the police databases, Jack says 'You might want to stop saying 'you' and start saying 'we'' Implying that to him referring to collective groups correctly is inherent to his nature. He refers to humans as 'you' many many times. This is important.

I'm say that's to try and get it into Gwen's head that she's in Torchwood now more than anything else.

As to why he refers to humans as 'you' perhaps he doesn't want to be associated with them. He's come from his time to find a bigoted, small minded race with no perspective of how large the universe is. Even after all the work he put into trying to give them a sense of perspective they shoot him and risk the entire planet by ripping open a hole in time.

To him these people are as much his people as the Ancient Romans are our people.

The Baron · Post by **The Baron** » 2007-07-12 05:51am

2000AD wrote:I'd guess that he's a hybrid.
In the Empty Child / Doctor Dances the Doctor pointed out that in the 51st century homo/bi/hetero sexuality wasn't really an issue as there's a load of aliens out there to shag and in the episode where the sun explodes Cassandra makes a big deal of claiming to be the last pure human.

It would also partly explain how he turned into the alien looking Face of Boe.

Yeah I'd be happy with a hybrid, anything other than pure human would be acceptable to me. That said, I'm not sure bringing Cassandra's point of view into it makes that much sense, as she says it several billion years after Jack was born.

Gwen says 'you shouldn't have this' referring to the police databases, Jack says 'You might want to stop saying 'you' and start saying 'we'' Implying that to him referring to collective groups correctly is inherent to his nature. He refers to humans as 'you' many many times. This is important.
I'm say that's to try and get it into Gwen's head that she's in Torchwood now more than anything else.

Yeah, I said that, but it also gives an insight into his mindset, how he categorises and refers to groups, be it Torchwood or the human race, so later when he refers to humans as 'you', we can refer back to this.

As to why he refers to humans as 'you' perhaps he doesn't want to be associated with them. He's come from his time to find a bigoted, small minded race with no perspective of how large the universe is. Even after all the work he put into trying to give them a sense of perspective they shoot him and risk the entire planet by ripping open a hole in time.

To him these people are as much his people as the Ancient Romans are our people.

Or even less his people, because the ancient Romans were at least human beings, the same as us;)

Lord Woodlouse · Post by **Lord Woodlouse** » 2007-07-12 06:57am

Everything previous to the Boe stuff indicated he was just a human from the future, where things are so radically different that there is a significant us and them aspect to us. There are theoretical sciences for allowing men to become pregnant now, in the 51st century they could easily have become a reality.

Boe did say he's the last of his kind, but that could simply reference to the fact that he's become so modified by this point he essentially turned himself into a whole new being.

At most he was originally a hybrid. But the Doctor does seem fairly certain Jack is human, just a human with a radically different frame of mind to modern ones.

The Baron · Post by **The Baron** » 2007-07-12 07:15am

Lord Woodlouse wrote:Everything previous to the Boe stuff indicated he was just a human from the future, where things are so radically different that there is a significant us and them aspect to us. There are theoretical sciences for allowing men to become pregnant now, in the 51st century they could easily have become a reality.

But what's the simplest explanation? That he's an alien or an alien hybrid, or that we have to make loads of assumptions about what humans can or can't do a few thousand years in the future. Until it's explicitly stated that he is a human, the simplest explanation is that he's either an alien or an alien/human hybrid.

Boe did say he's the last of his kind, but that could simply reference to the fact that he's become so modified by this point he essentially turned himself into a whole new being.

It could, a simpler explanation is that he actually is the last of his species, at a time we know humans still exist. No assumptions to make there, just taking the evidence for what it is.

At most he was originally a hybrid. But the Doctor does seem fairly certain Jack is human, just a human with a radically different frame of mind to modern ones.

The Doctor doesn't actually directly refer to Jack as human ever, he talks about humans with Rose, in episodes with Jack, but never while Jack is present.

To simplify - we have a ton of evidence of alien qualities about Jack, and zero statement saying that he is human. We can either make huge numbers of assumptions about humans of the future, or we can follow Occam's razor and take the simplest explanation.

There are so many alien qualities to Jack because he is at the very least part alien.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2007-07-12 07:33am

The "humans" from the future might as well be aliens, since they've biologically and technologically progressed past our present set - I'm also puzzled why the humanoid beings who became the Toclafane were supposedly humans, when they were very, very distant descendents of humans and it was implied that they assumed many other alien forms earlier on in their far, far future civilization. And if Jack Harkness was closely related to present day homo sapiens, he certainly isn't now due to his near immortality and practical indestructibility.

Lord Woodlouse · Post by **Lord Woodlouse** » 2007-07-12 07:42am

The Baron wrote: But what's the simplest explanation? That he's an alien or an alien hybrid, or that we have to make loads of assumptions about what humans can or can't do a few thousand years in the future. Until it's explicitly stated that he is a human, the simplest explanation is that he's either an alien or an alien/human hybrid.

Why is "it's because he's from three thousand years in our future" any more contrived than "because he's an alien"? We KNOW he's from three thousand years in our future and it's frankly silly to presume humanity will not be radically different by then, and almost certainly have technology that confounds us. None of these things he's said or done seem especially astounding to someone from such a fantastically distant age.

I'm not saying it's impossible he's alien, I just don't consider it likely. The vibe I get heavily implies he's supposed to be a future human. That's kind of his role in the story, as far as I see it. He shows how much humanity changes. For that reason I'd go, at most, with a hybrid. Otherwise that whole element (which I personally think they lay on pretty thick) about him being a future human representing how radically different humanity is, is completely wasted.

Lord Woodlouse · Post by **Lord Woodlouse** » 2007-07-12 07:44am

Big Orange wrote:The "humans" from the future might as well be aliens, since they've biologically and technologically progressed past our present set - I'm also puzzled why the humanoid beings who became the Toclafane were supposedly humans, when they were very, very distant descendents of humans and it was implied that they assumed many other alien forms earlier on in their far, far future civilization. And if Jack Harkness was closely related to present day homo sapiens, he certainly isn't now due to his near immortality and practical indestructibility.

Remember, he's from the 51st century. That's before even the humans of the year 200,000 and it's impossibly distant from the state of humanity in the year 5 billion.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-07-12 07:57am

Can we say that aside from a coincidental nickname, there's no evidence he's the Face of Boe at all? And forget the whole thing?

Remember, he's fixed in time... but... he's changing. We just said that in his last 30 seconds, turns out he's not fixed at all, whoops he's the Face of Boe lol. Ugh.

Starglider · Post by **Starglider** » 2007-07-12 08:04am

Stark wrote:Remember, he's fixed in time... but... he's changing. We just said that in his last 30 seconds, turns out he's not fixed at all, whoops he's the Face of Boe lol. Ugh.

I put that down to proximity to Torchwood Three causing residual stupidity bleed into the script.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2007-07-12 08:56am

Stark wrote:Can we say that aside from a coincidental nickname, there's no evidence he's the Face of Boe at all? And forget the whole thing?

Remember, he's fixed in time... but... he's changing. We just said that in his last 30 seconds, turns out he's not fixed at all, whoops he's the Face of Boe lol. Ugh.

Well, the knowledge of this whole Yana/You Are Not Alone affair, is some possible evidence. It at least is a very easy explanation how Boe could know about this.

Lord Woodlouse · Post by **Lord Woodlouse** » 2007-07-12 10:34am

Stark wrote:Can we say that aside from a coincidental nickname, there's no evidence he's the Face of Boe at all? And forget the whole thing?

Remember, he's fixed in time... but... he's changing. We just said that in his last 30 seconds, turns out he's not fixed at all, whoops he's the Face of Boe lol. Ugh.

From the sounds of things RTD got cold feet about that, and in the commentary tried to insist it was just one theory. However Julie Gardner (executive producer and, in my mind, all round idiot) insisted RTD can't backpeddle out of it now.

The Baron · Post by **The Baron** » 2007-07-12 10:40am

Lord Woodlouse wrote:
The Baron wrote: But what's the simplest explanation? That he's an alien or an alien hybrid, or that we have to make loads of assumptions about what humans can or can't do a few thousand years in the future. Until it's explicitly stated that he is a human, the simplest explanation is that he's either an alien or an alien/human hybrid.
Why is "it's because he's from three thousand years in our future" any more contrived than "because he's an alien"? We KNOW he's from three thousand years in our future and it's frankly silly to presume humanity will not be radically different by then, and almost certainly have technology that confounds us. None of these things he's said or done seem especially astounding to someone from such a fantastically distant age.

I'm not saying it's impossible he's alien, I just don't consider it likely. The vibe I get heavily implies he's supposed to be a future human. That's kind of his role in the story, as far as I see it. He shows how much humanity changes. For that reason I'd go, at most, with a hybrid. Otherwise that whole element (which I personally think they lay on pretty thick) about him being a future human representing how radically different humanity is, is completely wasted.

It's more contrived because it would require us to make a whole load of assumptions about future human technology and bioengineering that isn't borne out in future (as in beyond the 51st century) incarnations of humantiy as portrayed in Doctor Who. Basically the options are:

In the 51st century, humans can bioengineer themselves to the degree that they exhibit the alien characteristics Jack displays. These humans do not consider themselves 'human' like 21st century humans. Beyond the 51st century, we never see these characteristics again.

Or we have:

Jack is never referred to as human. Jack has alien characteristics. Jack is an alien.

I can't help but notice that you chose only to respond to a select number of my points about Jack's alien characteristics or dialogue about them. I'd like to hear your opinion on all the points I raised.

Lord Woodlouse · Post by **Lord Woodlouse** » 2007-07-12 11:30am

The Baron wrote:It's more contrived because it would require us to make a whole load of assumptions about future human technology and bioengineering that isn't borne out in future (as in beyond the 51st century) incarnations of humantiy as portrayed in Doctor Who. Basically the options are:

"He's an alien" is an assumption in itself. The elements you mention "male pregnancy", "highly acute sense of taste" and "can detect people outside of sight" (not sure what this references, can we have some context please?) have simply not been referenced because there's no reason to because it has no bearing on the story. Also, since Jack was a Time Agent it's altogether possible he had engineering beyond the norm. We don't know that for sure, yes, but we certainly KNOW he was a Time Agent as opposed to knowing he is some kind of alien.

Seriously, where in the episodes set past this point has there even been opportunity to show these characteristics?

In the 51st century, humans can bioengineer themselves to the degree that they exhibit the alien characteristics Jack displays. These humans do not consider themselves 'human' like 21st century humans. Beyond the 51st century, we never see these characteristics again.

Who said he does not consider himself human? He regards 21st century Earth to be a different people. I'd definitely speak of my people and your people if I went back three thousand years. This has already been addressed.

Or we have:

Jack is never referred to as human. Jack has alien characteristics. Jack is an alien.

In "The Doctor Dances" the Doctor says, as Captain Jack goes off to flirt with some solider;
"Relax. He's a 51st century guy, he's just a bit more flexible when it comes to 'dancing'."
Rose says "How flexible?".
"By his time you lot have spread across half the galaxy".

I can't help but notice that you chose only to respond to a select number of my points about Jack's alien characteristics or dialogue about them. I'd like to hear your opinion on all the points I raised.

I normally don't like to get into sentence by sentence rebuttals, they're irritating. If you think I've not addressed something already, let me know what it is.

Parallax · Post by **Parallax** » 2007-07-12 05:04pm

It could just be that whatever Rose did to Jack, and going by the Doctor's words Rose simply couldn't control it, could simply have completely screwed around with Jack's physiology - and as time went on and Jack used what Rose did more and more, his body got more and more changed.

avatarxprime · Post by **avatarxprime** » 2007-07-13 12:57am

I agree with Parallax, especially considering that's the theory me and my friend have been tossing around

. I mean, we've seen the energies contained in the Heart of the TARDIS regress a being back to its version of infancy/pre-birth. I mean in order to bring Jack back to life following being hit by a Dalek beam weapon most likely did involve at least a small amount of messing with Jack's physiology and as pointed out by Parallax, Rose couldn't control what she was doing.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-07-13 01:07am

Stark wrote:Can we say that aside from a coincidental nickname, there's no evidence he's the Face of Boe at all? And forget the whole thing?

Given that Gridlock was re-dubbed with 'Old Friend' just to accomodate it, no. No we can't.

As for his humanity, or lack thereof, the first confirmed appearance of the Face of Boe is in the year ~200,000 by which time 'picosurgeons' exist. If he wants to get altered into a gigantic head, one wouldn't expect any practical problems with that.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-07-13 03:05am

My problems with that are threefold.

1) it's just... so lame and tacked on.

2) he's a 'fixed point', thus he can't die and is basically immortal - so how can picosurgeons change him when guns can't?

3) just looking at him makes the Doctor go all Time-Lordy. This never happened and was never even hinted at earlier. See point one, 'tacked on'.

Luckily, since it was just a gag, until anything happens to actually establish it I can ignore it. I'm sure the Doctor has plenty of 'old friends' who turn into a giant head - it only took him three years to get this one, after all.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-07-13 04:11am

Stark wrote: 2) he's a 'fixed point', thus he can't die and is basically immortal - so how can picosurgeons change him when guns can't?

I seriously doubt he's unable to shave or cut his hair. What about a sun tan? Or a tatoo? I would assume that reffers to his conciousness soul, arton energy, or whatever rather than general physical traits.

3) just looking at him makes the Doctor go all Time-Lordy. This never happened and was never even hinted at earlier. See point one, 'tacked on'.

By the time the Face of Boe is a giant head, he's also a telepath. Even assuming the Doctor's teeth didn't itch when he met the Face of Boe before, that could easily be explained as the giant head making it so with mind powarz.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-07-13 04:14am

Why would he cut his hair when he looks the same and it never grows?

And just let me cling to this liferaft in an ocean of suck, pretty please?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-07-13 04:18am

Nope. The commentry for Last of the Time Lords says they re-dubbed it to have that, in light of Last of the Time Lords. Jack's gonna turn into a giant head.

The sooner the better, to be honest. Surely it'll reduce the amount of gratuitous humping in Torchwood.

I think I'll stop abusing your imagination now...

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-07-13 04:22am

NecronLord wrote:Nope. The commentry for Last of the Time Lords says they re-dubbed it to have that, in light of Last of the Time Lords. Jack's gonna turn into a giant head.

I'm not clear on this - are you saying that they're changing the audio on Gridlock after they aired it to include a justification for their super-shit bullshit off-the-cuff dumb crap? UGH!

NecronLord wrote:The sooner the better, to be honest. Surely it'll reduce the amount of gratuitous humping in Torchwood.

I think I'll stop abusing your imagination now...

Remember NOW he's changing real slow (lol) and he'll turn into a giant head (lol) and then stop (lol) and be the giant head for 4.8 million years, vs human for 200k years tops. This is awesome and cool and what a great twist it is when they go back and make it work with a clumsy dub edit.

Hopefully DW will start to suck overall next season and I can stop wasting my time. 3rd season was already more than 50% shit, so maybe I'll be safe.

Safe from the madness.

Safe from the lameness.

Safe from Gridlock Special Edition with 95% more suck.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2007-07-13 09:18am

Stark wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Nope. The commentry for Last of the Time Lords says they re-dubbed it to have that, in light of Last of the Time Lords. Jack's gonna turn into a giant head.
I'm not clear on this - are you saying that they're changing the audio on Gridlock after they aired it to include a justification for their super-shit bullshit off-the-cuff dumb crap? UGH!

Apparently there's a podcast or something which backs this up. Though it seems like Davies took a bit of flak over it.

Lord Woodlouse · Post by **Lord Woodlouse** » 2007-07-13 11:33am

I don't think it was changed after they aired it, just changed after they filmed it and it was added in post production. I definitely remember him saying it when I watched.

Flakin · Post by **Flakin** » 2007-07-13 11:59am

Lord Woodlouse wrote:I don't think it was changed after they aired it, just changed after they filmed it and it was added in post production. I definitely remember him saying it when I watched.

I just watched it again to be sure and it's definitely in the originally aired version. I think it probably does apply to the "Old Friend" comment being added in post production.