SE V DJAS game

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2007-07-08 01:40pm

So I made a mod according to some of the ideas I've always wanted to see in mods, and I'd like to introduce it to the rest of you.

It's built on the Balance Mod, but most of the major stuff is changed, so I now feel confident in calling it a mod in its own right and not just a tweak of the BM. The basic idea is this:

1. There are 3 ship sizes: Destroyer, Cruiser, and Battleship. These are all available to build from the start and have their own strengths and weaknesses, and they all get bigger as Large Scale Construction is researched. Destroyers are fast, hard to hit and can use an accuracy boosting mount for direct fire and point defense weapons. Cruisers have an all-purpose mount and a powerful but innacurate heavy mount for taking down battleships. Battleships are the largest ships and can use the bombardment mount, which doesn't have a prayer for hitting other ships, but does 50x damage. Perfect for taking out starbases and fortified planets.

2. There are 4 starting weapons: Pulse lasers, beam lasers, nuclear missiles, and mass drivers and their point defense equivalents. There are 100 levels to these, although one should not expect to ever see level 100. Shields and armor also have 100 levels. Pulse lasers are accurate at range, beam lasers fire continuously and are excellent at shooting down lots of small targets, nuclear missiles have great range and damage, and mass drivers have a high refire rate and good damage but use ordnance.

3. There are two breakthrough techs. The first grants access to Advanced Armor, Phased Shields, Advanced Space Yards, Pulse Phasers, Beam Phasers, Photon Torpedoes, Blasters, and many of the stellar manipulation techs. These start at lvl 1, so they might not beat the Tier 1 techs right away, but with some research they will quickly surpass them. A player who rushes the breakthrough tech too early can be crushed by someone who researches the Tier 1 techs, but someone who waits too long could be stuck with lasers against someone with phasers, and such a conflict never ends well for the guy with outdated tech.

The Final Breakthrough tech gives Ultimate Armor, Null-Space Shields, Ultimate Space Yards, Pulse Nullifiers, Beam Nullifiers, Quantum Torpedoes, Black Hole Cannons, and the rest of the stellar manipulation techs. The same logic applies to the final breakthrough, although it is decidedly late game and many games may never see it.

There are more changes than this, of course, but those are the biggies. I can't guarantee that everyone will like it or prefer it to any given mod, but I happen to think it's pretty snazzy. So who's up for a game? Hopefully we can get at least 6 or 8 and start within the next two weeks.

Mod can be downloaded here. File size is under 3 megs.

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2007-07-08 02:39pm

I'll have to peek at it a bit and mess around in SP to get a feel. sounds nice though.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2007-07-08 04:09pm

You can mess with it in SP, but just be warned that the AI doesn't work, so don't expect the computer to actually do anything.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2007-07-08 05:44pm

I say we start with predetermined starting positions. Each player gets 5 home systems, and there's a ring of ten systems in the center for everybody to fight over. There's one way out of the 5 rings, and random planet distribution. If this is possible. The fighting would be over the center ring. It could be the official SDN map for future games too and we could make a 4, 6 and 8 player version of it.

I think there's an SEV map editor out there.

Random placement sucks for competitive games, and it sucks for testing games too. If there's only one way in your turf, suddenly starbases and fighters get useful as defense mechanisms, and a turtler actually has a chance, but not too much because there's no such thing as first shot last die.

Also I cringe at 6 players. I'm thinking more four players, and faster turning so it'll eventually overtake the SEVRP game.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2007-07-08 06:09pm

I don't really think turning away interested players is good practice. I don't think 13 like the BM game is what we want, but I doubt 13 people want to try a new mod anyway. Anyway, if you make a map like that, we can certainly use it. Even if it's just a generated map, we should still select equidistant starting positions. The random placement is just bad.

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2007-07-08 07:16pm

I'm in for a game.

Luke Starkiller · Post by **Luke Starkiller** » 2007-07-08 07:46pm

Am I missing something or is colonizing a major pain in the ass with this mod? The colony module only fits in a Cruiser or Battleship at the start, and using as many engines as fit in the cruiser it only gets 5 movement.

Kingside_Bishop · Post by **Kingside_Bishop** » 2007-07-08 09:44pm

Hey. I can't join this game, but I'd be up for another one, if another one gets going at some point inthe future. Just dropping by to say -- "hey, I'm interested in this, for future reference," really.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2007-07-09 12:25am

Luke Starkiller wrote:Am I missing something or is colonizing a major pain in the ass with this mod? The colony module only fits in a Cruiser or Battleship at the start, and using as many engines as fit in the cruiser it only gets 5 movement.

Yes, that's true. It wasn't my intention to slow down the rate of colonization, it just kind of worked out that way. I suppose I could shrink the colony module so that it will fit on a lvl 1 cruiser more easily. I'll be making a couple other tweaks before we start (like getting beam weapons to not be stopped cold by equivalent lvl emissive armor), so I can definitely do that one, too.

EDIT: Fixed, and also adjusted beams by halving their fire rate and doubling their damage output. This shouldn't cause any noticeable change whatsoever except that they'll get through emissive easier. Also doubled the size to 60 kT and doubled damage again. Again, no effect on damage output per kT, just making it easier to get through emissive. Emissive should now soak up roughly half of a beam weapon's output at the same tech level. If that makes them too powerful, they can be tweaked further.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2007-07-11 11:04am

So will it be 5 players, then? Myself, Brian, Neph, Trogdor, and Luke Starkiller? Or just 4?

Anyway, I'll put the game up on PBW later tonight so we can start this weekend. Here's the latest version and the one we'll be starting with, unless someone spots a big error.

Luke Starkiller · Post by **Luke Starkiller** » 2007-07-11 11:50am

I won't be able to play in this one.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2007-07-11 10:46pm

K, 4 players then. Still a good number.

Game is up on PBW. Name is SDN SEV DJAS. We'll start on Saturday if that's OK with everyone.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2007-07-12 09:06pm

I'll repost what's on the games page for easy reference:

News

Jul 11, 2007 10:46:38 PM EDT: A few addenda to know about:

Racial tech weapons have been left in the mod for now, but they will quickly be surpassed by the standard ones and they don't have Tier 2 and Tier 3 versions. Specialized weapons such as shield disruptors have also been left in. Some of these could potentially be useful in some parts of the game, but they have not been tested and will eventually be replaced, so caveat emptor on spending research points on them. Racial non-weapon techs are still functioning and have the same usefulness as before.

I have not been able to find any major balance or polish issues and bugs remaining, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. Let me know if you find anything wrong so it can be patched.

Custom shipsets / flags are OK, but test them first to make sure they're fully working (some are not) and send the shipset to me before game start at arthurtuxedo AT gmail DOT com so I can distribute it to everyone. Custom shipsets are a bit of a PITA, so if it's no big deal it's better to just use a stock one. (arthurtuxedo)
Game description
Note: Despite what the label says, this is NOT stock 1.35 SE V. It is the DJAS mod, created by me (arthurtuxedo) using the Balance Mod as a base. Download is here: http://www.tensidedrpg.com/temp/DJASv6.rar

The only special rule is no tech trading, tech sharing, or analyzing gifted ships. Rules about things such as not using exploits and not being a douchebag are implied and do not need to be stated explicitly.

Game will start Saturday, July 14.

Starting resources: 100000
Starting planets: 5
Home planet value: Good
Score display: All
Technology level: Medium
Racial points: 2000
Quadrant size: Small or Medium (depends on # of players)
Event frequency: None
Technology cost: Medium
Victory conditions: Destroy all homeworlds, allied victory possible
Maximum units: Highest possible
Maximum ships: Highest possible
Computer players: None
Computer difficulty: AI does not function in DJAS mod

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2007-07-12 09:13pm

May I suggest (for a later version) an interesting variant on cloaking?

Traditionally, cloaking is stupid in SE. You're either detected (if there was a cloak detector in range) or not. Why not make varying grades of stealth? Since cloaking works on points of cloak and points of sensor, we can now (with SEV) do range based detection.

Think of it this way. A standard sensor can detect '0' (normal sensors) at range say.. 5. But at range 2, it can detect level 1 cloaks. So thus, it can pick up a stealthed ship at close range.

Later, or with more expensive sensor arrays, you can pick up different bands of detection. This allows stuff like ECM actually represent electronic warfare ability to do stuff like evade enemy deteciton, if your 'level 3 stealthed frigate' slipped right out of an enemy patroller's radius 4 detector or whatever.

It could allow fun possibilities, instead of SE's habitual reliance on a catastrophic decisive battle to decide who wins wars.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2007-07-12 09:16pm

Here's the general tech layout to get everyone started:

1. You get emissive armor with Chemistry 2. Once you have Chem 2, it levels with regular armor up to 100. It has the same kT and resistance, but absorbs damage and costs somewhat more.

2. You get Contra-Terrene engines with Chem 2, not with Ion Engines 3.

3. You still get shield regenerators at Shields 5, and they level after that up to 95. These do not stack (they don't stack in stock or in the Balance Mod, either, just FYI).

4. The benefit from researching space yards and mining facilities are +20% per level compared to +10% in Balance Mod.

5. The 4 weapon techs give both the main weapon and the point-defense versions. Mass driver can outdamage anything, but needs ordnance and misses a lot at longer range. At short range, mass drivers win. At medium to long range, pulse lasers win. Beam lasers have the best damage / sec against shields and non-emmissive, but lose about half their power against emissive. They are excellent against lots of small targets with their high fire rate, but at a slight disadvantage against ships w/ emissive compared to pulse lasers and mass drivers. Missiles are the same as they always were in SE V, long range and high damage, but slow refire rate and especially susceptible to the n-squared law. It only takes the loss of a few missile ships before the PD screen can shoot them all down. On the other hand, it only takes the loss of a few enemy PD ships before almost all the missiles are getting through.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2007-07-12 09:17pm

That's a very good idea. I'll definitely include something like that.

Nephtys wrote:May I suggest (for a later version) an interesting variant on cloaking?

Traditionally, cloaking is stupid in SE. You're either detected (if there was a cloak detector in range) or not. Why not make varying grades of stealth? Since cloaking works on points of cloak and points of sensor, we can now (with SEV) do range based detection.

Think of it this way. A standard sensor can detect '0' (normal sensors) at range say.. 5. But at range 2, it can detect level 1 cloaks. So thus, it can pick up a stealthed ship at close range.

Later, or with more expensive sensor arrays, you can pick up different bands of detection. This allows stuff like ECM actually represent electronic warfare ability to do stuff like evade enemy deteciton, if your 'level 3 stealthed frigate' slipped right out of an enemy patroller's radius 4 detector or whatever.

It could allow fun possibilities, instead of SE's habitual reliance on a catastrophic decisive battle to decide who wins wars.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2007-07-12 09:18pm

Yeah the idea that a cloaked fleet can sneak through everything is stupid. It's bad for game balance and makes high sensors a priority over every other strategy. I support a cloak that works like Nephtys wants, range based. The shit of shit sensors should see any kind of cloak at range 0. Then better sensors give better cloak, up to range 12 or something.

Step functions are generally stupid. Right now I'm forced to assume cloak doesn't bypass mines (why should it) dump mines over wormholes and keep sensors really high. With graded cloaking, someone could go seekers and not worry about cloak fleet of doom destroying them.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2007-07-13 11:57am

Oh, forgot to mention. Don't use fighters in ground combat. Something causes the formula to break, so instead of damage on their weapons dropping off to zero beyond max range, it goes to 999.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2007-07-15 11:48am

We'll start tomorrow (Monday) at 9 PM PDT, using the latest version and SE V v1.44. You can go ahead and make your empires now, but remember that once it's submitted to PBW it can't be replaced, so don't upload until you're sure it's what you want.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2007-07-16 10:46am

Are you going to join, Neph? If we're going to start tonight, it will have to be soon.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2007-07-17 12:12am

We'll start tomorrow as soon as the empires are uploaded.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2007-07-17 04:34pm

Looking at the logs, it seems Brian hasn't upped a turn for the Balance Mod in more than a week. Whatever's going on, we'll have to start without him, and if he decides he wants in after a few turns, starting over will be no big deal. Let's try to get through these early turns pretty quick. 1 per day for the first 10, maybe?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2007-07-17 04:43pm

Does it work with single player/

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2007-07-17 05:10pm

No, tweaking the AI requires scripting ability that I simply don't have. You can play it singleplayer, but don't expect the AI players to actually do anything.

By the way, Neph, you should have provided a link to the Amarr shipset you're using. Took me a while to track it down.

EDIT: And Trogs, you forgot to spend the 500K tech points! Luckily for you, I noticed and you hadn't passworded your empire, so I selected the same starting techs as for my empire.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2007-07-17 05:35pm

And we're off! Anyone can still join if they want to, since restarting now is no big deal.

One last tip that I probably should have given before empire creation. Don't hyperfocus on minerals, neglect rads and completely ignore orgs like in stock or BM. I upped the rad and org requirements on a lot of the components, so you'll be bled dry pretty quick using that strategy.

EDIT: Ignore a "version does not match" if you get one. It said that to me even though I had just created the game two minutes earlier using the same mod folder.