Anti Cigarette site/Pro Smoking Arguments

[Darth Wong]

I was actually surprised to learn that there are a lot of OBs in this country that tell pregnant women who smoke not to quit because the stress of that could affect the pregnancy...The March of Dimes addresses this on their website and I believe the college of OBGYNS also took up the issue and decided that telling women not to quit was a bad idea. It doesn't seem like the actual doctors are listening though, at least not according to the women I have spoken to about this.

My sister was told that 4 cigarettes a day won't cause any harm to the baby, as she was finding it extremely difficult to quit.

Who told her that? Doctor Dumbshit and his assistant, Nurse Nitwit?

I don't know if this is true, and the baby was born slightly small and premature (6lb iirc), but that could just be due to it being 4 weeks premature.

Ummm, premature births are one of the symptoms of drug use during pregnancy. Face it, your sister is a fool and whoever gave her that advice is a moron.

[Cairber]

I was actually surprised to learn that there are a lot of OBs in this country that tell pregnant women who smoke not to quit because the stress of that could affect the pregnancy...The March of Dimes addresses this on their website and I believe the college of OBGYNS also took up the issue and decided that telling women not to quit was a bad idea. It doesn't seem like the actual doctors are listening though, at least not according to the women I have spoken to about this.

My sister was told that 4 cigarettes a day won't cause any harm to the baby, as she was finding it extremely difficult to quit. I don't know if this is true, and the baby was born slightly small and premature (6lb iirc), but that could just be due to it being 4 weeks premature.

Cigarette smoking increases risk of premature birth and low birth weight. Smoking slows the growth of the infant in the womb as well as inhibits ling development, making premature birth even more risky.

The March of Dimes

I feel the MoD is ignored on this issue far too much. Again and Again and Again they release study after study demonstrating the debilitating effects of cigarette smoke on the fetus. And they are ignored.

[matus1976]

Re #5 smoking in the establishment

'Waitress who never smoked' dies of lung cancer

This is old news from over a year ago, but I have to wonder how much damage I did to my lungs working in a bowling alley from 16-18 where the smoke would get down to my knees before the boss would let me turn on the "scrubbers" (he was a penny pincher).

It's also highly likely that she got her lung cancer from breathing in the smoke from cooking food, which is a significant source of carcinogens and large particulates which are very damaging to your lungs.

[Cairber]

I was actually surprised to learn that there are a lot of OBs in this country that tell pregnant women who smoke not to quit because the stress of that could affect the pregnancy...The March of Dimes addresses this on their website and I believe the college of OBGYNS also took up the issue and decided that telling women not to quit was a bad idea. It doesn't seem like the actual doctors are listening though, at least not according to the women I have spoken to about this.

I wonder if there is any demographic or geographical pattern to the doctors who are saying this.

I don't really know if there is anything out there on this. The MoD put out a letter with a map showing where the most premature births are in the USA, and the South had the most risk overall; however, with all the other factors that go into it, I guess you really can't take much from that.


oh, and ghetto edit, that should read "lung" not "ling" in my post above.

[General Zod]

It's also highly likely that she got her lung cancer from breathing in the smoke from cooking food, which is a significant source of carcinogens and large particulates which are very damaging to your lungs.

I assume there's some actual studies for this? Cooking rarely puts out as much smoke that cigarettes do, second hand or otherwise. If it does put out a lot of smoke it's usually a sign you're doing something wrong.

[Cairber]

MArch of Dimes Map on Premature Birth

Then you can look here and see that states with low smoking rates amongst women have lower premature birth rates in comparison to states with higher smoking rates:


Just a few I looked up here (http://www.marchofdimes.com/peristats/)

Alabama: smoking rate of 32.3%
Mississippi: 23.5%
Louisiana: 24.4%


In comparison to:
New york: 20.8%
Oregon: 20.3%
Vermont: 20.9%

[matus1976]

I assume there's some actual studies for this? Cooking rarely puts out as much smoke that cigarettes do, second hand or otherwise. If it does put out a lot of smoke it's usually a sign you're doing something wrong.

You can start with a google search on the topic
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&clie ... tnG=Search

For starters, a large portion of the population of Africa cooks their food indoor by burning wood, and in some cases animal dung. You can see an average African Kitchen here - http://williamkamkwamba.typepad.com/pho ... itchen.jpg
(this is a good weblog of an african kid building a windmill!) Those walls are solid black from cooking smoke. Here is a short article talking about the issue - http://www.solarcooking.org/cookingsmoke.htm

Biomass smoke contains many harmful constituents such as respirable particulates and carbon monoxide, exposure to which can cause or contribute to acute respiratory infections, pneumonia, tuberculosis, lower birth weights, cataract, and nervous and muscular fatigue.
Smoke, especially coal smoke, also contains sulphur and nitrogen oxides and hydrocarbons which can lead to cancer. Women and children are most exposed to high levels of harmful smoke and suffer the most serious health damage; respiratory infections alone cause between 4 and 5 million deaths per year among small children, which is equal to or marginally less than deaths from diarrhoeal diseases. . .Some 1.9 million additional deaths each year are blamed on rural indoor pollution through suspended particulate matter and another 450,000 deaths are attributed to urban indoor air pollution. . .African countries and India have the worst record. . . in rural homes, while Latin America, India and China are worst. . . in urban interiors. . . For example, several studies in China found that smoke was a strong risk factor for lung cancer among nonsmoking women, while another study in Japan has related lung cancer to the past use of biofuels in cooking.
In Gambia it was found that girls aged under five carried on their mother's back during cooking (in smoky cooking huts) had a six times higher risk - a substantially higher risk factor than if their parents smoked.

See also - Cooking smoke killing 1,6-million people a year - http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?ar ... eid=302398
“Pollution levels in rural Indian kitchens were 30 times higher than recommended levels and six times higher than air pollution levels found in
India's capital, New Delhi, considered to be one of the most polluted cities in Asia.”

Lung cancer in Asian women—the environment and genes
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/b ... 4/art00003
“Active tobacco smoking is not the major factor…Cooking oil vapours associated with high temperature wok cooking and indoor coal burning for heating and cooking in unvented homes, particularly in rural areas, are risk factors for Chinese women”

In China, where smoking rates are much higher, cancer rates are still much lower than they are in the US. Any idea why that might be? Like the “French Paradox” this “Asian Paradox” is still a mystery in epidemiological studies. Everybody loves to vilify smoking, and it is indeed very harmful, but coffee and beer and cooking smoke is probably more carcinogenic to your average persons exposure.

See also “Beware of Wok smoke”
http://www.geocities.com/tathisri/wok_smoke.htm

The high rate of lung cancer among women in China puzzled Shields because relatively few of them smoke cigarettes. Previous work suggested that cooking smoke might be the culprit. One study showed that women who reported extra eye irritation,who presumably were breathing extra doses of smoke, were more likely to get lung cancer. Shields and colleagues set out to analyze cooking oils, working with Dr. Xu at Shanghai Cancer Centre.
Comparing four kinds of cooking oil at high temperratures, researchers found that the Chinese rapeseeded oil gave off 22 times
more 1.3 butadiene, a potent cause of genetic disruption, that peanut oil did. The chemicals billowing off ahot work included benzene, also found in cigarette smoke and known to cause leukemia, as well as what Shields called "chemicals of concern" : acrocein, formaldehyde and other aldehydes. "The smoke gets so thick that some Chinese cooks keep the windows open even in winter, "

In industrialized and developed nations, it’s well known that Indoor air quality has for a long time (since the energy efficiency standards in the 70’s in the US for instance) has been much worse than the outdoor ‘polluted’ air. Because buildings and houses are sealed so tightly, people breathe in air all day which tends to be much worse than outdoor air. In my own building we found out that the ambient level of ‘skin cells’ was 10 times the normally accepted level. But back to cooking…

Here is a Google Scholar search for “cancer cooking smoke –cigarette”
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=can ... art=0&sa=N

Of course many studies on “smoke” and “cancer” relate to cigarette smoking, and many relate to cooking and cigarette smoke, but cigarette smoking has most of the attention.

Indoor air quality at restaurants with different styles of cooking in metropolitan Hong Kong
http://www.cse.polyu.edu.hk/~cesclee/Restaurant.pdf

Lung Cancer and Indoor Pollution from Heating and Cooking with Solid Fuels
http://171.66.121.65/cgi/content/abstract/162/4/326
“Risk increased relative to the percentage of time that solid fuel was used for cooking”

Mutagenicity and Chemical Analysis of Fumes from Cooking Meat
http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cg ... sid=6006l3
“Occupational exposure to carcinogens in the fumes may pose a human health risk to food preparers and warrants further investigation”

Many of these articles and studies explicitly mention how few studies have been done on this. If your grandparent who slaved over a stove cooking for 5 kids every day contracted some form of lung disease, even cancer, it was probably from breathing in all that cooking smoke for decades on end (as what happened to my recently deceased great aunt) even if she smoked. Of course, it could be the cigarette smoking that caused it too, but typically cancers requires a combination of mutations and except the cases where something causes a particular kind of cancer (like asbestos) then it is nearly impossible to trace which carcinogen caused the mutation, and its entirely plausible that some mutations were caused by one carcinogen and some caused by a completely different one.

Get a smoking hood if you don’t have one, stop cigarette smoking, stop drinking alchohol as well (which is as easily as carcinogenic as cigarette smoking) and you might want to get rid of “burnt” foods as well, like roasted coffee, according the Bruce Ames, one of the worlds experts on the role of natural and man-made carcinogens. Lose weight, being overweight significantly contributes to your chance of getting cancer as well.

[Metatwaddle]

The MoD put out a letter with a map showing where the most premature births are in the USA, and the South had the most risk overall; however, with all the other factors that go into it, I guess you really can't take much from that.

What are the other factors that go into it? I'm curious.

[Cairber]

The MoD put out a letter with a map showing where the most premature births are in the USA, and the South had the most risk overall; however, with all the other factors that go into it, I guess you really can't take much from that.

What are the other factors that go into it? I'm curious.

Factors for premature birth risk:

-substance abuse
-malnutrition
-high blood pressure
-obesity
-poor/nonexistant prenatal care
-lack of social support
-domestic violence
-diabetes

There are lots more, but I see, by looking at some of MoD's maps, that poverty levels, lack of care access, smoking, and even obesity are higher in the states with higher premature births (other factors are higher as well, but I only looked up these ones). So I guess I cannot pin smoking as the big factor in the South when those states seem to have lots of risk factors working against their infants.

[Zac Naloen]

I was actually surprised to learn that there are a lot of OBs in this country that tell pregnant women who smoke not to quit because the stress of that could affect the pregnancy...The March of Dimes addresses this on their website and I believe the college of OBGYNS also took up the issue and decided that telling women not to quit was a bad idea. It doesn't seem like the actual doctors are listening though, at least not according to the women I have spoken to about this.

My sister was told that 4 cigarettes a day won't cause any harm to the baby, as she was finding it extremely difficult to quit. I don't know if this is true, and the baby was born slightly small and premature (6lb iirc), but that could just be due to it being 4 weeks premature.

Cigarette smoking increases risk of premature birth and low birth weight. Smoking slows the growth of the infant in the womb as well as inhibits ling development, making premature birth even more risky.

The March of Dimes

I feel the MoD is ignored on this issue far too much. Again and Again and Again they release study after study demonstrating the debilitating effects of cigarette smoke on the fetus. And they are ignored.

Yeh I was aware of this which is why I mentioned it.

I don't defend that my sister smoked during pregancy. I thought it was utterly stupid, but she did try to quit and still is. She's now gone to the NHS who are providing help.

[Cairber]

I thought the "I don't know if this is true" bit in your post meant that you were not sure of the connections between premature birth and smoking (as well as the connection between low birth weight and smoking).

[Zac Naloen]

I thought the "I don't know if this is true" bit in your post meant that you were not sure of the connections between premature birth and smoking (as well as the connection between low birth weight and smoking).

I meant the part about her being told that

[Darth Wong]

If your grandparent who slaved over a stove cooking for 5 kids every day contracted some form of lung disease, even cancer, it was probably from breathing in all that cooking smoke for decades on end (as what happened to my recently deceased great aunt) even if she smoked.

The strong correlation between lung cancer and smoking (more than 10x) applies regardless of the fact that there are other environmental carcinogens, because those other carcinogens apply equally to the smoking and non-smoking groups in all of these medical studies. The fact that some other countries have horrendous pollution does not mean that cooking smoke is a serious problem for typical Americans and Canadians, who invariably have a fume hood over the stove and try to avoid taking deep breaths of barbecue smoke. Obviously, any kind of combustion byproducts are bad for you, but cigarette smoke is the only kind that we deliberately breathe in for no reason.

[Shrykull]

Another issue is do you think Pregnant women should be allowed to smoke and drink?

Let's assume that she doesn't want to abort the baby (which is another issue) should she have the right to smoke, drink, and possibly maim the child for life after it's born, because it's "her" body? Definitely not.

If you're honestly so stupid you have to seriously ask this question then you should automatically forefit your rights to reproduction.

No, it was rhetorical, though though there aren't any laws here or penalities for a mother who smokes or drinks while pregnant, it isn't illegal as of now.

[Shrykull]

It's also highly likely that she got her lung cancer from breathing in the smoke from cooking food, which is a significant source of carcinogens and large particulates which are very damaging to your lungs.

I assume there's some actual studies for this? Cooking rarely puts out as much smoke that cigarettes do, second hand or otherwise. If it does put out a lot of smoke it's usually a sign you're doing something wrong.

I don't know if puts up any at all really. Most of what cooking puts out, either when you're frying food or flame broiling it is the aroma in the steam of what you're cooking, since it contains mostly water. If you burn it, then you will smell smoke, and yes, you haven't done it correctly.

[Twoyboy]

because those other carcinogens apply equally to the smoking and non-smoking groups in all of these medical studies.

Actually, from what we've been told by the hygienists at work, the risk of other carcinogens is multiplied by cigarette smoking.

Before anyone asks, I have no references currently for this, except some pamphlets given to us at work where asbestos is a major hazard.

[FSTargetDrone]

Another issue is do you think Pregnant women should be allowed to smoke and drink?

Let's assume that she doesn't want to abort the baby (which is another issue) should she have the right to smoke, drink, and possibly maim the child for life after it's born, because it's "her" body? Definitely not.

One could argue that smoking or drinking while pregnant is nothing less than child endangerment, perhaps, if not outright child abuse. Just as denying a child its food or health care is endangering its welfare. As has been shown here already, by smoking, the mother is actively engaging in an activity that will most likely have a negative effect on the health of her child.

I'd like to see smoking banned everywhere, short of privately-owned homes where there are no minor children. That includes all bars, restaurants or clubs. Not everyone there wants to smoke.

I live in an apartment complex that disallows smoking as part of its policy (doubtless because of the fire hazard and to a lesser extent, the hard-to-remove odor left behind when a smoker moves out), yet there are some renters who still smoke in their apartments. And every day and night when the weather is nice and I have my windows open, I get to smell the near-constant cigarette smoke drifting into my place from the divorced deadbeat dipshit who's moved in with my neighbor (she smokes too, though not as much). Yes, this brainless fuck is inside the apartment (or occasionally on the balcony), but his damn smoke still finds its way in here. And yes, it's not a lot of smoke, but why in the hell should I have to close my windows to avoid the smell just because he wants to break the rules and satisfy his tobacco addiction? It's not enough that he flicks his half-spent butts all around the shared courtyard out front (making the place look like a giant ashtray) or over the balcony railing and into the dry grass out back. We still have to smell his smoking. And hope to hell that he doesn't pass out after drinking and set this place on fire when he drops a cigarette onto something flammable.

To hell with smokers and their "rights." If they want to smoke, do it away from the rest of the majority of society that chooses not to.

[Shrykull]

I'd like to see smoking banned everywhere, short of privately-owned homes where there are no minor children. That includes all bars, restaurants or clubs. Not everyone there wants to smoke.

This would also include outdoors in public places, right? I actually hold my breath when I have to walk through a cloud of smoke to get into a place. I think it's illegal to smoke in public outside in NYC. in New Hampshire, minors can actually be arrested for smoking, not fined, arrested. I remember back in high school some kids wanted a smoking lounge outside for students, but this makes me no sense to me, if it's illegal for minors to smoke, why would it be allowed in school?

Is it because perhaps that minors can smoke, just not buy cigarettes? If that's the case then it defeats the purpose of having to be 18 to buy cigarettes to stop minors from smoking. I know they did have high school smoking lounges in the 70's though.

Also, I think smokers should be required by law to wash thier hands after taking a smoke break, just imagine the smoke tinged saliva on thier fingers going onto your food.

I live in an apartment complex that disallows smoking as part of its policy (doubtless because of the fire hazard and to a lesser extent, the hard-to-remove odor left behind when a smoker moves out), yet there are some renters who still smoke in their apartments. And every day and night when the weather is nice and I have my windows open, I get to smell the near-constant cigarette smoke drifting into my place from the divorced deadbeat dipshit who's moved in with my neighbor (she smokes too, though not as much). Yes, this brainless fuck is inside the apartment (or occasionally on the balcony), but his damn smoke still finds its way in here. And yes, it's not a lot of smoke, but why in the hell should I have to close my windows to avoid the smell just because he wants to break the rules and satisfy his tobacco addiction? It's not enough that he flicks his half-spent butts all around the shared courtyard out front (making the place look like a giant ashtray) or over the balcony railing and into the dry grass out back. We still have to smell his smoking. And hope to hell that he doesn't pass out after drinking and set this place on fire when he drops a cigarette onto something flammable.

I guess you've already complained to the land lord, have you to the housing authority and perhaps the board of health as well? Not to mention the asshole himself who smokes to his face?

[FSTargetDrone]

This would also include outdoors in public places, right? I actually hold my breath when I have to walk through a cloud of smoke to get into a place. I think it's illegal to smoke in public outside in NYC. in New Hampshire, minors can actually be arrested for smoking, not fined, arrested. I remember back in high school some kids wanted a smoking lounge outside for students, but this makes me no sense to me, if it's illegal for minors to smoke, why would it be allowed in school?

Yes, outside, at least near where other people are if these smokers must have their precious smoke break or whatnot.

Is it because perhaps that minors can smoke, just not buy cigarettes? If that's the case then it defeats the purpose of having to be 18 to buy cigarettes to stop minors from smoking. I know they did have high school smoking lounges in the 70's though.

Smoking lounges for the students? Times have surely changed.

Also, I think smokers should be required by law to wash thier hands after taking a smoke break, just imagine the smoke tinged saliva on thier fingers going onto your food.

Oh yes, especially if they are preparing food. I would have no problem with something like that. Then again there are problems getting people to wash their hands in general (which I find astounding).

I guess you've already complained to the land lord, have you to the housing authority and perhaps the board of health as well? Not to mention the asshole himself who smokes to his face?

I've complained to the leasing office and they do whatever they do (or don't do about the situation). As for confronting the guy himself, well, he's bigger than me and I'm not about to do something to set him off and possibly threaten my girlfriend. The dirtbag already has a police record. It pisses me off but not enough to have the asshat start something and escalate the issue.

[Shrykull]

I sent this email to spinner8@usa.com for this site here

http://come.to/SmokersInfo


Just because you smoke....

YOU CAN

<<* Lose custody of your children!>>

Good! Parents who smoke around thier children shouldn't be allowed to do it, it's a form of child abuse, not to mention pregnant women who smoke and smoker's children are twice as likely to pick up the habit themselves. And just imagine if the parents don't wash thier hands when preparing food! the smoke tinged saliva that goes into it.

<<* Be kicked out of your home!>>

Also good, if you are breaking the rules and smoking when they don't allow it, smoking up the walls for the next tenant which can cost thousands of dollars to replace, why should a landlord have to do that so you can support your addiction!?

<<* Be denied a job or be fired from the one you have!>>

I have no problem with this either, especially if you are an employer. Why should your employer have to give you 10 minute smoke breaks every hour and have the company suffer for your lack of productivity? Also, why is it that it's socially unacceptable in a lot of cultures to radiate body odor, but I have to smell smoke covered people when they come back in from thier breaks?


<<* Be denied medical services!>>

Cigarette taxes don't nearly make up for the amount of money spent on a smoker's health care, the chemotherapy, radiation, organ transplants, hormone therapy and other treatments for the myriad cancers and plethora of other diseases that I am taxed for and have to pay for someone to rot thier lungs!

If you want to smoke, go suck on your exhaust pipe of your car.

[Shrykull]

I was in New Hampshire today and a read a cigarette law at a grocery store. It said that any person who gives cigarettes to a minor who is NOT thier parent or guardian shall be fined.

So, it's ok for parents to give thier children cigarettes, even if they are underage?! I remember once my uncle let me cousin, his son, drink a wine cooler, I know in most European countries it is legal for minors to drink, though I don't know if there's a limit. I think an 18 year old american should have the right to drink if they can be drafted, and go to war, and possibly die (Actually, don't they let minor soldiers drink on base?) but I think this is also wrong, to let minors drink in those countries, as your brain has not fully developed yet, and may NEVER if you destroy too many brain cells with alcohol.

It was also real funny I watched CSPAN one morning and they wondered if smokers should have to pay more taxes.

One guy called in and said

"I run a business where my employees smoke outside and I don't want them on my property. So now, to prove my point, I'm smoking cigarettes, everywhere I go, outside, at stores, at wal-mart, just to show them I have the right to breathe clean air"

"Wait, so you smoke and don't want others to?"

"Yes, do you know what I mean?"

"No, I have no idea what you mean"

I wondered if I could get a transcript/voice recording of this, it was priceless. Besides, why is he actually SMOKING the cigarettes!? He could just carry a lit one around, but he'd have to deal with the smoke on him and his clothes, as well as breathe it. Furthermore, why would a smoker care if someone smokes around them, when they smoke themselves?

[Shrykull]

here's this guy, he appears he somewhat well known, though I never really heard of him before. At least he seems to not let his bias (I can't exactly figure out what it is) and he emotions influence his decisions, it's difficult to tell what he thinks about smoking.

http://www.fumento.com/hatemail/hatemail37.html

[Resinence]

I had one say to me the other day "smoking does not cause cancer" and when I challenged him on it replied "there is no radiation in smoke and you only get cancer from radiation". I think that just about sums up how intelligent people who think smoking is safe are.

[Zwinmar]

This is for arguments sake alone, No I dont agree with what I am about to say.

Anyways,

How can smokeing be bad for a fetus? Escpecially in a country were a fetus has no rights and can be aborted. I mean, It is a non person, it doesnt exist, and a woman have a right to their bodies, therefore, until the kid is born it doesnt exist.


Bleh, anyways, that about sums up the contradictions that I see. It makes no sense to me.
1.) smokeing does screw up the pregnancy-no arguments there
2.) Abortion activates say that a child is not a child until (insert stupid ass time period)
3.) Then you have the fundies who support one but are adamantly against abortion.

Sorry I am just trying to wrap my mind around this conundrum

[Darth Wong]

This is for arguments sake alone, No I dont agree with what I am about to say.

Anyways,

How can smokeing be bad for a fetus? Escpecially in a country were a fetus has no rights and can be aborted. I mean, It is a non person, it doesnt exist, and a woman have a right to their bodies, therefore, until the kid is born it doesnt exist.

You're a fucking retard. If the woman aborts the fetus, then it doesn't matter. But if the woman has the kid, then that is a person who will have to live his whole life with the consequences. Do you honestly not understand how this works? If a fetus is not a person until its brain becomes active, then no person is killed when it is aborted. But if a fetus is allowed to grow to term and poisoned all the fucking way, then that is a person who will pay the price for someone else's negligence.

Bleh, anyways, that about sums up the contradictions that I see.

It's only a "contradiction" if you're a raving idiot.