Proving BaldStar Wrong

[DarkStar]

DarkStar, I don't have time to go into detail, but trust me, you're wrong.

Wow. Hella-argument you got there, Ender.

[Anarchist Bunny]

DarkStar, I don't have time to go into detail, but trust me, you're wrong.

Wow. Hella-argument you got there, Ender.

Wow, you payed attention to a full rebuttle, well, it's not really a rebuttle, but still, you replied to it, go you. Ofcourse you would understand him if you read the rest of the thread, instead of just repeating your arguement over and over again no matter how many times it's proven wrong and when ever someone points out one of your fallacys you just say their doing the same like a 1st grader. Jesus even Babs the zombie could respond and learn from what others said and did.

Here are some things I made for john clark's thread, and I'm coming up for ideas for something from you.

[DarkStar]

Wow, you payed attention to a full rebuttle, well, it's not really a rebuttle, but still, you replied to it, go you. Ofcourse you would understand him if you read the rest of the thread, instead of just repeating your arguement over and over again no matter how many times it's proven wrong and when ever someone points out one of your fallacys you just say their doing the same like a 1st grader. Jesus even Babs the zombie could respond and learn from what others said and did.

I will not alter my arguments unless they are proven to be logically or factually in error, and I have already told you this. (You say I repeat things... well, duh... you keep ignoring what I say.)

This thread has involved Poe choosing to repeatedly ignore canon fact in favor of his own beliefs, and I see no logic in acquiescing just because he refuses to acknowledge those facts.

[Cal Wright]

It has to do with cutting out action that is not nessesarily needed on the show/film.

obviously in TMP, they didn't want to show the Enterprise traveling across the Sol System for several hours, so they just showed it passing Jupiter/Saturn/Planet Whatever after only a few seconds of them traveling, for the sake of the viewers.

Same basic idea could be possibly occuring during "Farpoint". They decide not to show the E-D exiting then entering warp. After all, the show isn't in realtime, isn't it.

Now I'm going to bed, because it's 1:00 AM and I'm fucking tired.

Someone over at ASVS also made the assertion of "unseen missing time". How long was it? Days? Weeks? Years? Can we insert "unseen missing time" into Star Wars, too? Oh, the possibilities...

Benefit of the doubt, that you don't have the proper material to ascertain lightspeed travel in Star Wars. Here I will go through the quickest simplest way to determine.

In the Black Fleet Crisis trilogy Lando says that scientists have found the galaxy to be 120,000 light years across. That is officially EU source.

Inside the Worlds of Episode I has a galaxy chart at the opening. According to the discription the galaxy is approxiamtely 100,000 light years across. Subsequintly the description for the distance of Tatooine from the core, and Naboo from the core seem to reflect this. However, if we wisely take visuals over dialog we will see this is too short of distance. Included with the diagram is a bar to measure it's size. It is broken into 24 increments. Each increment is 5,000. This brings the galaxy to 120,000 light years in diameter. This book, the Visual Dictionary and the Incrediable Cross Sections works closely with the movies instead of using EU information.

Alderaan is around 10,000 light years from the core. Opposite side of Tatooine. At 60,000 (Tatooine is actually just outside of the galaxy, so it could be slightly further distance) sits Tatooine from the core. This comes out to 70,000 light years travel distance. In A New Hope the Millenium Falcon leaves Tatooine on a destantion for Alderaan. The Death Star in orbit of Alderaan fires it's superlaser and blasts the planet into kibbles 'n' bits. The Millenium Falcon then exits hyperspace and is met with a large debris field of the former planet. The Death Star still resides where it first shot. This means, traveling a distance of 70,000 (the distance Janeway stated Voyage would have to travel) the Millenium Falcon made it from anywhere within an hour to six hours. Any longer and they would not have met with the debris field nor would the Death Star still be sitting for no reason.

So in mention of your original post, no we cannot insert 'unseen missing time' into the discussion unless it is about surface to orbit time. In which both ANH, ESB, and TMP both show an orbital altitude gain in a matter of seconds.

[Master of Ossus]

DarkStar, have you brought up a single new point since your opening argument in this debate?

Anyway, your statement that we have always seen warp-flashes when we see ships go into warp is incorrect. In "By Inferno's Light" we see the Defiant go to warp without a warp flash. You are lying. You have failed to properly respond to any of Lord Poe's original points, and you appear to have no argument unless we fall for the "Dialogue over Visuals" fallacy.

[Ender]

DarkStar, I don't have time to go into detail, but trust me, you're wrong.

Wow. Hella-argument you got there, Ender.

I don't have one. Hell, I didn't even bother to read what you posted. But since you have been proven wrong every other time you posted, I figured I'd just play the odds.

[Master of Ossus]

LOL! Smart bet, Ender. I think your odds are improving as he keeps talking....

Maybe you inherited some of the skills of the REAL Ender, whose name you also took.

[Setesh]

For those who haven't seen it I posted this to the newsgroup thread on the same topic

Alright let's settle this the easy way.

Darkstar's Premis: The Enterprise D makes a turn a warp

Visual: The EntD makes a quite sharp U turn. Taking a peice of flimsy and a
marker I traced the path of the U turn from the'innermost' point of the EntD I
then clocked the turn at 2 sec (I'm being generous here the stop watch actually
read 2sec 42). For almost a full second the Ent D was at a right angle to the
directions it had been travaling in. I then with the aid of the trusty pause
button moved the flimsy over a stationary EntD (same shot), which barly fit in
the space encompased by the turn.

What does this mean? If the Ent was at Warp 1, the inner turn surface should be
299,793 km wide minimum. instead its just barly larger than the Ent D

Conclusion: The turn was to sharp to have been produced by an object travaling anywhere near c.

I think I got the width slightly off
but you get the point

[Anarchist Bunny]

Trys to predict Dark Stars response.

No Setesh your wrong cause I no I'm right. I'd wish you'd try to prove me wrong. More of your "warp star" silliness, I see. We already discussed this about
TOS, and I even mentioned early TNG examples of it to you. In short, early TNG-era FX sometimes made the 'error' of trying to show warp-driven ships at warp from a stationary observation point, and this stationary position would not have warp stars, even if the ship was at warp. For example, in this episode, moments before the separation, the Enterprise is running from Q at high warp, but the chase is shown from a stationary observation point as two flybys without "warp stars", as you can see here:
http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_101.htm

You claim the stardrive section decelerated to impulse speeds, but this just
isn't so. Knowing how you are, I'll go ahead and "draw it out for you":

The ship was moving at a speed of at least warp 9.5, being chased by Q (
http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_104.htm ).

Picard moves to the battle bridge with a plan to make good the escape of the saucer
( http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_116.htm ).

Just before Yar fires torpedoes in the hopes of blinding the Q at the moment of separation (dumb idea, but they didn't know he was omnipotent at the time), Picard tells Worf: "At the moment of separation, we'll reverse power just enough to get your saucer section out ahead and clear of us." Worf acknowledges
(http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_119.htm ).

We see the saucer separation, and we see the saucer appear to pull ahead by several dozen meters, just as Picard said.
(http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_132.htm ,
http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_133.htm and
http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_143.htm )

As you saw in that last shot, both sections were at warp speeds. With the
saucer "out ahead and clear", the stardrive section turns to face the Q.
The shot of the ship is from a stationary location, and we see the ship turn
on a dime and go flying back toward the Q. When it does so, there is no
"warp flash" of the ship going back into warp. Why? Because it never
dropped out of warp to begin with.
(http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_145.htm ,
http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_146.htm ,
http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_148.htm , and
http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_150.htm )

There is then a moment's reaction shot of Picard, lasting about three
seconds. It should be noted that this is not long enough to allow for the
special effect of the ship going into warp that you see at the end of the
opening credits. When this reaction shot is over, there is a mobile (with
warp stars) shot of the stardrive moving at warp.
(http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_151.htm)

Shortly thereafter, Picard orders the ship to come to a stop. He says
"reverse power", then Data acknowledges: "Reverse power, decelerating."
The deceleration of the stardrive section from warp speeds takes six
seconds... we see the stars slow from "warp stars" to normal impulse-speed
"stars" on the bridge. (http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_152.htm ).

That is the nail in the coffin of your idea, beyond the simple fact of the
way warp was portrayed in early TNG. The fact that the ship took six
seconds to drop out of warp with reverse power means that the ship could not have dropped to impulse to make the hard starboard turn. It also means that the saucer section, which could not have reversed warp power, was still at warp in that shot.

*for those who don't know most of that is a copy/paste of his original arguement*

[Setesh]

I'd love to see him try this. I don't mention the warp stars at all and showing a visual merely makes my point more obvious.

Though you did miss a crucial part of Darkstar's argumaents.
"Concession Accepted"

[Master of Ossus]

I tried something like that already when I told him about turning radii, but he ignored me and repeated his original points without modification. Good luck, guys. I don't think we can defeat his tactic of disregarding all relevent posts while either concentrating on minutiae taken out of context or focusing entirely on his original argument.

[Setesh]

I'm not expecting much except a good laugh out of his post. After the 3rd time he ignored me rather than answer my questions I decided not to expect much. Still I know he'll point out that my distance figure is off and he will be right. I even admitted it wasn't accurate. Its far to small. That's the distance that should be there at a Warp 1 turn aka c. The Ent was going a lot faster than warp 1 before the turn to escape Q. I'm just waiting to see hm try to rationalize away a point based on common sense.

[DarkStar]

In the Black Fleet Crisis trilogy Lando says that scientists have found the galaxy to be 120,000 light years across. That is officially EU source.

Contrary to the canon description of the SW galaxy as "modest-sized". In the Local Group of 40 galaxies, even excluding the dwarfs and anything else below 10,000 light-years across, the average galaxy size of the remaining 13 is 36,500 light years (an estimate which holds for larger galaxies within 20 million light years).

Some argue that the use of phrases like "halfway across the galaxy" in TPM, "outer rim" in several movies, and Han's comment that he'd been from one side of the galaxy to the other implies that the Empire probably controls a huge fraction of the galaxy. However, this is highly unlikely, given what is known of the galaxy. For instance, the planet Kamino was referred to as being "beyond the outer rim", but the map in the Jedi library clearly zoomed in to an area very close to the core, meaning that "outer rim" cannot refer to the outermost rings of the galaxy. It should be noted that I am not being unfair here . . . I apply similar reasoning to Pike's comment to the Talosians about being from "the other end of this galaxy".

[DarkStar]

DarkStar, have you brought up a single new point since your opening argument in this debate?

I haven't needed to. My original arguments stands just fine. All I've had to do is point out the flaws in reasoning and canon in the posts of my opponents.

Anyway, your statement that we have always seen warp-flashes when we see ships go into warp is incorrect. In "By Inferno's Light" we see the Defiant go to warp without a warp flash.

Really? What scene? Got any screenshots?

You are lying.

Riiight. Even if you are correct about one single warp entry event, that does not prove a lie... it would prove an error, probably related to the fact that there are 1.2 billion hours of Trek to work with. Of course, reasoning means little to you, so you would naturally assume and emphasize your notion that I have engaged in an outright lie, a la Poe.

You have failed to properly respond to any of Lord Poe's original points,

Now that is a lie. See the difference, there? Hmm... no, you probably don't.

and you appear to have no argument unless we fall for the "Dialogue over Visuals" fallacy.

I've never argued on the basis of dialogue over visuals. My argument is that we accept the visuals for what they are. After all, EaF was the first time we saw the new warp effects... how did anyone figure out what they were showing? Dialogue. Did they show warp flight without warp stars? Yep.

So why this foolish assertion of yours that warp speed must always have warp stars?

[DarkStar]

DarkStar, I don't have time to go into detail, but trust me, you're wrong.

Wow. Hella-argument you got there, Ender.

I don't have one. Hell, I didn't even bother to read what you posted. But since you have been proven wrong every other time you posted, I figured I'd just play the odds.

Ah, so you've been listening to the warsie whining and not bothering to try to figure out the facts for yourself.

Good job.

[A Big Flying Fish]

Contrary to the canon description of the SW galaxy as "modest-sized". In the Local Group of 40 galaxies, even excluding the dwarfs and anything else below 10,000 light-years across, the average galaxy size of the remaining 13 is 36,500 light years (an estimate which holds for larger galaxies within 20 million light years).

its a different universe, galaxies could be considerably larger there, ever thought of that?

Some argue that the use of phrases like "halfway across the galaxy" in TPM, "outer rim" in several movies, and Han's comment that he'd been from one side of the galaxy to the other implies that the Empire probably controls a huge fraction of the galaxy. However, this is highly unlikely, given what is known of the galaxy. For instance, the planet Kamino was referred to as being "beyond the outer rim", but the map in the Jedi library clearly zoomed in to an area very close to the core, meaning that "outer rim" cannot refer to the outermost rings of the galaxy. It should be noted that I am not being unfair here . . . I apply similar reasoning to Pike's comment to the Talosians about being from "the other end of this galaxy".

ever thought that when they say 'outer rim', they mean the outer rim of the old republic, not the entire galaxy. there can be more than one meaning to a sentence you know

[DarkStar]

For those who haven't seen it I posted this to the newsgroup thread on the same topic

Alright let's settle this the easy way.

No, this is the wrong way. Your point would have been better made if you had measured the turning radius and then described the speed at which the ship should have passed.

Either way, it is irrelevant, since in any scene that appears to occur in realspace with warp-driven ships, the ships should not be visible. This is where suspension of disbelief comes into play.

[DarkStar]

Trys to predict Dark Stars response. ...
*for those who don't know most of that is a copy/paste of his original arguement*

Thank you. Since no counterargument has disproven any of the points contained, it was good of you to post a refresher for them.

[DarkStar]

I'd love to see him try this. I don't mention the warp stars at all and showing a visual merely makes my point more obvious.

Your point is no different than that of Ossus, who claimed that science overrides canon in reference to warp visuals without warp stars, and fails just as miserably.

[DarkStar]

I tried something like that already when I told him about turning radii, but he ignored me and repeated his original points without modification. Good luck, guys. I don't think we can defeat his tactic of disregarding all relevent posts while either concentrating on minutiae taken out of context or focusing entirely on his original argument.

I'm not expecting much except a good laugh out of his post. After the 3rd time he ignored me rather than answer my questions I decided not to expect much. Still I know he'll point out that my distance figure is off and he will be right. I even admitted it wasn't accurate. Its far to small. That's the distance that should be there at a Warp 1 turn aka c. The Ent was going a lot faster than warp 1 before the turn to escape Q. I'm just waiting to see hm try to rationalize away a point based on common sense.

Psst! Hey, fuckwits! How many times do you have to be told that this is science fiction, and is to be regarded on that basis? If we do not accept the canon facts, we might as well stop arguing, since nobody's going to reach any other planet at FTL speeds.

Further, how many times are you going to lie about me disregarding and ignoring things? You are the ones who seek to disregard canon fact because you don't like it. I wouldn't have to repeat myself if you would accept fact the first time around.

Idiots.

[DarkStar]

Contrary to the canon description of the SW galaxy as "modest-sized". In the Local Group of 40 galaxies, even excluding the dwarfs and anything else below 10,000 light-years across, the average galaxy size of the remaining 13 is 36,500 light years (an estimate which holds for larger galaxies within 20 million light years).

its a different universe, galaxies could be considerably larger there, ever thought of that?

No, it is a galaxy far, far away.

Some argue that the use of phrases like "halfway across the galaxy" in TPM, "outer rim" in several movies, and Han's comment that he'd been from one side of the galaxy to the other implies that the Empire probably controls a huge fraction of the galaxy. However, this is highly unlikely, given what is known of the galaxy. For instance, the planet Kamino was referred to as being "beyond the outer rim", but the map in the Jedi library clearly zoomed in to an area very close to the core, meaning that "outer rim" cannot refer to the outermost rings of the galaxy. It should be noted that I am not being unfair here . . . I apply similar reasoning to Pike's comment to the Talosians about being from "the other end of this galaxy".

ever thought that when they say 'outer rim', they mean the outer rim of the old republic, not the entire galaxy. there can be more than one meaning to a sentence you know

My point exactly.

[Setesh]

Wow, I've never seen someone say that my argument is faulty because it proves him wrong before. Darkstar has reached a new height(or is that low) in his strategic incompetance to totally avoid the point. He loves to ignore little Canon facts ('No left no right') (the ONLY canon warp turns occur around stars in slingshot manuvers), since they don't support his little notion. Attempt to use a basic acceleration physics (aka common sense) and he crows 'suspention of disbelief' rather than try and prove me wrong.
I wonder if he realizes that 'Suspension' only goes so far, they bend the laws pretty baddly in ST, now DS claims they can breack them like a ming vase.

[SirNitram]

Oh my, the 'Not A Galactic Empire After All' nonsense again? Please, anyone who saw AOTC could plainly see that the Republic didn't just control the Galaxy, but several 'captured' Galactic formations nearby, similar to the Magellenic Clouds captured by our own Milky Way.

[DarkStar]

Wow, I've never seen someone say that my argument is faulty because it proves him wrong before.

You still haven't, since I sure as hell didn't say that.

He loves to ignore little Canon facts ('No left no right') (the ONLY canon warp turns occur around stars in slingshot manuvers), since they don't support his little notion.

Ha! Dumbass. The Paris quote is a PRATT (point refuted a thousand times), since there are numerous canon examples of ships turning at warp.

"Elaan of Troyius"[TOS], "The Deadly Years"[TOS], Star Trek IV, "The Wounded"[TNG], "Treachery, Faith, and the Great River"[DS9], "Human Error[VOY], et cetera.

Attempt to use a basic acceleration physics (aka common sense) and he crows 'suspention of disbelief' rather than try and prove me wrong.
I wonder if he realizes that 'Suspension' only goes so far, they bend the laws pretty baddly in ST, now DS claims they can breack them like a ming vase.

Dude, we're already seeing superluminal flight by human beings, and we see it represented as a ship passing by quickly while making a whoosh sound. What the hell is wrong with you?

[DarkStar]

Oh my, the 'Not A Galactic Empire After All' nonsense again? Please, anyone who saw AOTC could plainly see that the Republic didn't just control the Galaxy, but several 'captured' Galactic formations nearby, similar to the Magellenic Clouds captured by our own Milky Way.

I could be a complete asshole and point out that "12 parsecs south of the Riche Maze" that Obi-Wan pointed to, and the location of Kamino that the monitor zoomed in on, would make the entire area shown by the zoomed out map something like 100 parsecs wide.

I could, but I won't.