STGOD: A Dead Art?

[Dahak]

I'd appreciate if people would say exactly what ships they are contributing to the space monster battle, just so I can make the battles log accurate.

What battle log...??

[Imperial Overlord]

I'd appreciate if people would say exactly what ships they are contributing to the space monster battle, just so I can make the battles log accurate.

What battle log...??

Starglider is logging and posting all combats, including losses on both sides.

For clarity's sake, the entire Home and Fourth fleets from my OOB is involved (posted earlier).

[Starglider]

I'd appreciate if people would say exactly what ships they are contributing to the space monster battle, just so I can make the battles log accurate.

What battle log...??

This one.

[Dahak]

If you must... I would have thought declaring it, as previously, in the post itself should suffice, but well...

edit: and for the record, the Home Fleet is hanging around near them, battle-ready, but waiting and observing as of this moment.

[Starglider]

Ok here is what I have at the moment:

Code: Select all

>>> First Battle of Sol <<<

Location  : Near-Mercury Space
Situation : A small horde of space monsters jumps into the system, loiters
            around in close stellar orbit for a couple of days, then
            travels to Mercury and starts mining. The USA outpost destroys
            one of the miner creatures. The STMC ships begin firing on the
            outpost. The Logos Centrality is the first to fire back.
Forces    : (unspecified points value of STMC space monsters)
            1  x Colonial 'Saber' class (30pt)
            2  x Colonial 'Ichigo Kurosaki' class (14pt)
            4  x Colonial 'Char Aznable' class (5pt)
            8  x Colonial 'Wendee Lee' (2pt)
            2  x Hegemony 'Yamato' class (50pt)
            4  x Hegemony 'Kongo' class (30pt)
            3  x Hegemony 'Natori' class (14pt)
            5  x Hegemony 'Jintsu' class (12pt)
            1  x Hegemony 'Han' class (10pt)
            5  x Hegemony 'Canberra' class (2pt)
            30 x Hegemony 'Kobe' class (1pt)
            3  x Logos 'Cataphract' class (28pt)
            4  x Logos 'Archer' class (16pt)
            10 x Logos 'Manticore' class (13pt)
            4  x Logos 'Huntress' class (6pt)
            26 x Logos 'Talon' class (2pt)
            4  x Polish 'Jan III Sobieski' class (50pt)
            4  x Polish 'Powstanie Warszawskie' class (20pt)
            4  x Polish 'Stanislaw Skalski' class (15pt)
            4  x Polish 'Husaria' class (12pt)
            1  x Polish 'Sep' class (10pt)
            4  x Polish 'Wilk' class (4pt)
            11 x Polish 'Orzel' class (2pt)
            38 x Polish 'Zbik' class (1pt)
            5  x Portugese 'Incursor' (45pt)
            10 x Portugese 'Espada Afiada' (15pt)
            2  x Portugese 'Voo Parada' (10pt)
            25 x Portugese 'Maria' (4pt)
            50 x Portugese 'Durado Levantou-Se' (2pt)
            1  x TGA 'Mothership' class (115pt)
            2  x TGA 'Voite' class (40pt)
            3  x TGA 'Rowrbrazzle' class (30pt)
            1  x TGA 'OtherKun' class (10pt)
            (unspecified USA Home Defense Fleet?)
            (unspecified Republic of America forces?)
            (long range supporting fire from assorted earth defences?)

My suggested rule of thumb for space battles with no special circumstances is 'larger forces losses = ((smaller force effective value) ^ 2) / (large force effective value)', but that probably doesn't apply in this rather unusual case.

[Dahak]

My suggested rule of thumb for space battles with no special circumstances is 'larger forces losses = ((smaller force effective value) ^ 2) / (large force effective value)', but that probably doesn't apply in this rather unusual case.

The traditional rule of thumb for losses...up to RP and player descisions, not decided by some formula...

[Starglider]

The traditional rule of thumb for losses...up to RP and player descisions, not decided by some formula...

The game does not have to be 'fair' but it does need to be internally consistent, particularly in case of a disagreement like Dark Hellion's 'if you attack me with a 3800pt fleet I will take 200pts of casualties, then you will take massive losses and be forced to withdraw' earlier.

[Dahak]

The traditional rule of thumb for losses...up to RP and player descisions, not decided by some formula...

The game does not have to be 'fair' but it does need to be internally consistent, particularly in case of a disagreement like Dark Hellion's 'if you attack me with a 3800pt fleet I will take 200pts of casualties, then you will take massive losses and be forced to withdraw' earlier.

Well, if your tactics suck, they suck
It should be handled between players and if you've got a problem, talk with the mods. I am personally against starting with this rule-based reasoning. Then RP becomes basically worthless, everything is decided from the beginning...

[Imperial Overlord]

No formula will be used. Tactics, force composition, and player discussions will be how casualties will be determined, with mod appeals if someone feels their fellow players are being unreasonable. One can certainly suggest a result based upon a formula, and if the players agree that the results are good, use it.

[Starglider]

I am personally against starting with this rule-based reasoning. Then RP becomes basically worthless, everything is decided from the beginning...

It isn't 'rule based reasoning', it's a 'rule of thumb' for when there are 'no exceptional circumstances', i.e. a larger force confronting a prepared smaller force and utterly destroying it, with no unusual RP tricks. You don't have to use my suggestion, but some rough (i.e. order-of-magnitude) objective standard is required for resolving disagreements, or the narrative will just make no sense due to internal inconsistencies. If you're not going to make at least a minimally consistent use of the OOB details then there was no point quantifying them in the first place.

[Imperial Overlord]

It isn't 'rule based reasoning', it's a 'rule of thumb' for when there are 'no exceptional circumstances', i.e. a larger force confronting a prepared smaller force and utterly destroying it, with no unusual RP tricks. You don't have to use my suggestion, but some rough (i.e. order-of-magnitude) objective standard is required for resolving disagreements, or the narrative will just make no sense due to internal inconsistencies. If you're not going to make at least a minimally consistent use of the OOB details then there was no point quantifying them in the first place.

Just about every battle with have RP elements, if only in choice of targets and where fire is concentrated. The formula also ignores OOB details like the following hypothetical encounter:

Fleet 1: 500 points, big guns style ships, lots of points in anticapital
Fleet 2: 400 points mostly carriers

Fleet 1 has more points, but its anticapital points aren't much use against the small craft swarms that are going to hit its ships.

[Redleader34]

I'm launching a rescue operation near Mercury and the Earth TGA fleet is

1 Mothership (Flagship)

2 Voite Class Battlecruisers

3 Rowrbrazzle Battleships

2 OtherKun cruisers

One OtherKun is in Africa, using general Support operations, the second is heading towards Mercury, with the fleet acting as general cover to defend it to mercury.

[Beowulf]

Just about every battle with have RP elements, if only in choice of targets and where fire is concentrated. The formula also ignores OOB details like the following hypothetical encounter:

Fleet 1: 500 points, big guns style ships, lots of points in anticapital
Fleet 2: 400 points mostly carriers

Fleet 1 has more points, but its anticapital points aren't much use against the small craft swarms that are going to hit its ships.

Unless, of course, it starts as a close range slugging match, in which case the carriers will lose rather badly.

[Imperial Overlord]

Just about every battle with have RP elements, if only in choice of targets and where fire is concentrated. The formula also ignores OOB details like the following hypothetical encounter:

Fleet 1: 500 points, big guns style ships, lots of points in anticapital
Fleet 2: 400 points mostly carriers

Fleet 1 has more points, but its anticapital points aren't much use against the small craft swarms that are going to hit its ships.

Unless, of course, it starts as a close range slugging match, in which case the carriers will lose rather badly.

Yes, another case where factors other than straight point cost apply. Or if your expensive battleship drops shields, powers down weapons, and allows Polish strike craft and gun cruisers to close to point blank range.

[Darkevilme]

Just about every battle with have RP elements, if only in choice of targets and where fire is concentrated. The formula also ignores OOB details like the following hypothetical encounter:

Fleet 1: 500 points, big guns style ships, lots of points in anticapital
Fleet 2: 400 points mostly carriers

Fleet 1 has more points, but its anticapital points aren't much use against the small craft swarms that are going to hit its ships.

Unless, of course, it starts as a close range slugging match, in which case the carriers will lose rather badly.

Yes, another case where factors other than straight point cost apply. Or if your expensive battleship drops shields, powers down weapons, and allows Polish strike craft and gun cruisers to close to point blank range.

Note to self, don't trust the sodding Polish.

[Starglider]

I think you're missing the point of a rule of thumb. It isn't supposed to be applied directly. I'm sure everyone can handle the different weapon types and tactical situations fine. But it tackles the first of these two fundamental issues;

1) How well ships can concentrate fire and thus what the baseline loss rate in a wall vs wall situation looks like.
2) What the upper size range for PD weapon effectiveness is (if any, aside from fighters and missiles) and what the lower size range for anti-capital effectiveness is.

The former is the most important for game consistency, inconsistencies in the later shouldn't be a serious problem unless someone starts rampantly powergaming.

Gridfire is charged

I assume that isn't Culture-style gridfire, given that it's being used alongside conventional nukes...

[Imperial Overlord]

No, your missing the point. Rigid formula work poorly in a free form game and this is a free form game. How combat will work has already been decided: players call their moves and discuss their actions to decide the results. Mods are called in if agreement can't be met. If you, or anyone else, wants to base their proposed results off the formula that is fine, but it will not be a core or required mechanic of this game. That has already been decided.

[Redleader34]

Gridfire, is lasers in a grid based system, not The Culture Gridfire

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

My force contribution to the First Battle of Sol actually goes something like this:

Code: Select all

            1  x Colonial 'Saber' class (30pt)
            2  x Colonial 'Ichigo Kurosaki' class (14pt)
            4  x Colonial 'Char Aznable' class (5pt)
            8  x Colonial 'Wendee Lee' class (2pt)

[Nephtys]

Are those ships all coming in simultaneously from the 6 different factions pitching in? Or would it be more sequentially at 'best speed', since this seemed sort of spontaneous?

I sent my force composition to Nitram earlier, but if any mod is on this, please PM me for it please.

[InnocentBystander]

Given the close distances we're talking about the time delay is going to be extremely limited. Especially if you aren't interdicting (are you?).

[Imperial Overlord]

Are those ships all coming in simultaneously from the 6 different factions pitching in? Or would it be more sequentially at 'best speed', since this seemed sort of spontaneous?

Your advance on Mercury is the trigger for several fleet movements and they're originating from the same location, so it looks like you'll get hit by most if not all fleet simultaneously.

[Academia Nut]

Come now Redleader, you can't tease me like that, offering to play out a Blob/Alien scenario and then snatching it away. No fun that. Although, now might be a time to politely ask the Straltoc ambassador how the fuck they contain their criminals, as its obviously something they need to worry about.

[Hotfoot]

I've noticed some rough patches in the game with certain events, so I'm going to chime in on some points. Here are some general guidelines to in-game posting. It is strongly suggested that you at least try to keep these in mind when playing to avoid conflicts with other players, angry mods, and so on.

1. This is a largely freeform game. There are no dice. This is collaborative storytelling with rules and an adversarial nature. This means you have to work together, even when you’re at war with your fellow player. Post what your action is, but not the results of your action. The only exception to this is if you work together with your fellow player and hammer out the details before you post.

Bad Example: The brilliant lances of coherent light tore through the atmosphere and ripped the resistance fighters to shreds. It was a slaughter.

Good Example: The squads lined their rifles at the insurgents and opened fire. The brilliant lances of energy would tear through most modern body armors with ease, and would even give light powered armor a run for its money. Overhead a ground support helidyne raked enemy positions with minigun fire.

2. There is no such thing as a sure thing. You can’t just automatically win or force someone else to lose. This goes for combat, intelligence, even trade. There are hopeless positions you can be forced into or that you can force others into, but these are huge events that are the result of much plotting, not simple things that you can get away with for minimal effort.

Bad Example: Hah, your missiles bounce harmlessly off of my point defense screen while my lasers tear you apart!

Bad Example: Haha, I disappear from all sight and your guards can’t catch me!

Good Example: The massive fleets aligned against the minimal defenders use their massive EW and Point Defense advantage to minimize their own losses. The battle would be over quickly. Had the coalition negotiations failed, the battle would have been much less one-sided.

Good Example: The pursuit was hectic. Police Officers had a datasheet with his image already on it. Major transit systems were being screened. If he ever found out who blew his cover, he’d make their life hell, assuming he made it out of this. The good news was that he had done everything he could to keep the police from finding a trace of his DNA. Firebombing his hotel room was a little extreme, but it had killed off any trace genetic material he might have left behind. That meant the best they could do was fingerprints and face. Fingerprints were a pain, but synthskin helped there. It would fool the scanners at the lower levels of the transit system, but not the spaceports. The facial features would be easy as well with the standard disguise kits the agency issued. He would have to lay low for a while if he wanted to avoid capture, but chances were the heat would stay on until he arranged for transport off the system. This wasn’t going to be easy, but if he could make it out of the city, he chances would improve.

3. No metagaming. This means that you should only do things based on what your nation knows or is able to know in game. If someone posts that they shove a rock with a camera alongside a path that will let the camera take pictures of a shipyard, you don’t automatically get to go, “Oh, look, I found it and stopped you, haha!” Moreover, if someone makes a secret move in the confines of their space, you should have a very good reason for knowing it. If you don’t have a good reason, you don’t know. If you don’t know, you can’t act on it. If you act on it, expect Mod censure or to be treated like a paranoid lunatic. Someone may even take advantage of such play and allow you to mistakenly kill a photojournalist that you thought was an assassin.

4. Things don’t appear out of thin air, but they do. This means that you don’t need to list every single thing an operative or a fleet has, some things are assumed. Fleets have tenders, cargo ships, etc. Soldiers have pre-packed meals, knives, etc. However, declaring something that is not an “expected” item, like a spy having a tac-nuke, is not allowable. This ties into metagaming. If someone posts that they are moving a sniper into position a block away, your security teams don’t automatically go on high alert, double in size, and get x-ray scanners from satellites. Even all the protection of the Secret Service couldn’t stop Kennedy from getting assassinated by a lone loon with a gun. Even Reagan ended up taking a bullet. Just because you protect your leaders doesn’t make them invulnerable.

5. This is important. So important, this is the second time I’m stating it. Work together with your fellow player. If you’re going to post something, post what you are doing, not what happened as a result of those actions. The ONLY exception should be if you have hammered out what will happen with the affected parties (or in very rare and extreme cases, the mods). By “hammer out” I mean you show them a draft of the actual post you want to put in the thread, and you go back and forth with any edits that are needed. That way you don’t attack something that isn’t there, or make a move that you couldn’t have normally made.

6. Don’t rapid fire posts. Give people a chance to respond. Obviously there are limits, especially if someone is busy this week or on scheduled vacation, but posting before people have a reasonable chance to respond is lame and leads to a condition known as autoing. This is bad. Do this often enough, and there will be rocks falling, with many people dying. All of them yours.

[Hawkwings]

I'll be gone until August 14th. I'll trust the mods to make decisions regarding my nation.