Someone explain Hulk tearing Wolverine in half

Napoleon the Clown · Post by **Napoleon the Clown** » 2007-07-13 04:39am

How far can Spiderman realistically move in the time it takes to make lightning though? He'd have to move faster than sound. It's not like Storm takes several seconds to throw one off. And if he moves when she starts forming it she can toss another one before he even gets footing again. Remember, he needs distance to dodge something as slow as a bullet. Lightning is much faster. Remember, Storm has been wanked into an Omega-level mutant.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2007-07-13 04:50am

Napoleon the Clown wrote:*snip*(This is all assuming none of the X-Men get pissed enough to shoot Spiderman at close range, which I can find no evidence of him ever dodging. *snip*

I missed this little tid bit

Scroll up dill hole. Not only does the cover SHOW SM dodging Cyclops's Optic blast AT SHORT RANGE, he is doing it while fucking up Colossus and Wolverine.

"But that is just a cover!!" Fine.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b367/havokeff/SW4.jpg

Look. What, Cyclops is maybe 15-20 feet away? MISSED. And it's not like the guy has to aim through a scope or anything, he just LOOKS at what he wants to shoot. So Spider-Man, through a combination of Spider-Sense, reflexes and agility moves faster than someone can LOOK. At CLOSE RANGE.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b367/havokeff/SW3.jpg

Hey look. Spider-Man dodged lightning. With this one though, I take back what I said about Storm being able to control lightning, since obviously she can.

Do I need to find the other countless THOUSANDS of times Spidey has dodged a (insert projectile/energy beam here) at close range??

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2007-07-13 05:04am

Napoleon the Clown wrote:How far can Spiderman realistically move in the time it takes to make lightning though? He'd have to move faster than sound. It's not like Storm takes several seconds to throw one off. And if he moves when she starts forming it she can toss another one before he even gets footing again. Remember, he needs distance to dodge something as slow as a bullet. Lightning is much faster. Remember, Storm has been wanked into an Omega-level mutant.

S P I D E R S E N S E. Do you know how it works?

Pretend like Spidey has the Force and can see things before they happen. Oh wait you don't have to do that , because his Spider-Sense does that for him.

On top of that, he is one of the fastest, quickest and most agile characters in the MU. He can run pretty damn fast if he wants to as well, like 80-90 mph.

Yes Storm can shoot lighting all over the place at him, but it still has to come from somewhere, if not her, which I've already shown you he can dodge. So when she makes those clouds that lightning comes from, now matter how close to him they are he will be able to get out of the way, because he senses the danger before it happens.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2007-07-13 05:37am

Spiderman dodges lightning all the damned time. Electro is a one of the more prominent members of his rogues gallery.

SCRawl · Post by **SCRawl** » 2007-07-13 07:59am

For the record, I wasn't trying to imply that any of the X-Men present -- or the combined group -- was capable, flat-footed, of taking down Spider-Man. As I said, Spidey really doesn't have much of an answer for Colossus or Rogue, but I never implied that either one could so much as lay a glove on him.

Give that group a little time to prepare for an encounter with Spidey, and maybe, maybe they could do it. He's a slippery fellow, to be sure, and smarter by half than any of them, but you can game-plan anyone if you have the time, the brains, and the personnel. As it happened, they were caught completely by surprise, and weren't really trying to hurt him.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2007-07-13 08:17am

The only real problem I have in that fight is Rogue being stuck in the webbing. People weaker than her have broken though it before I am sure but then the strength of Spidey's webbing is another of those writer-varible things. At times its said Spidey's never makes webbing that he himself can't break through and at others he gets webbed to a wall by the Looter and has to wait for an hour for it to dissolve.

Still Spidey could have gone with the to the web in the eye thing which is always fun.

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2007-07-13 10:17am

SCRawl wrote:For the record, I wasn't trying to imply that any of the X-Men present -- or the combined group -- was capable, flat-footed, of taking down Spider-Man. As I said, Spidey really doesn't have much of an answer for Colossus or Rogue, but I never implied that either one could so much as lay a glove on him.

Give that group a little time to prepare for an encounter with Spidey, and maybe, maybe they could do it. He's a slippery fellow, to be sure, and smarter by half than any of them, but you can game-plan anyone if you have the time, the brains, and the personnel. As it happened, they were caught completely by surprise, and weren't really trying to hurt him.

If you're giving the X-men time to prepare for fighting Spider-man, it's only fair to give him time to prepare for fighting them.

With equal prep-time on both sides, I can't see the X-men beating Spider-man. He's just too damn quick/strong/precognitive.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2007-07-13 10:30am

Crazedwraith wrote:The only real problem I have in that fight is Rogue being stuck in the webbing. People weaker than her have broken though it before I am sure but then the strength of Spidey's webbing is another of those writer-varible things. At times its said Spidey's never makes webbing that he himself can't break through and at others he gets webbed to a wall by the Looter and has to wait for an hour for it to dissolve.

Still Spidey could have gone with the to the web in the eye thing which is always fun.

Agreed that the fluctuating webbing tensile strength is an issue however it can be far better explained away by variables in a particular batch of webbing, let's remember that Peter is brewing these up at home and not in a factory or lab, than it is to explain Wolverine's wildly changing fast healing factor.

And while I think in the end the X-Men might be able to bring Peter down he would make a great showing and definitely make them pay.

I wouldn't get too hopped up on the precogntiive end of Peter's spidersense. As a Spiderman fanboy in High School I used that line all the time. Peter's spidersense has been overwhelmed in the past by too many incoming threats, for example HobGoblin rigged his electroblaster to fire like a machine gun in a random pattern and he managed to tag Peter with a glancing shot so he has limits to how useful the sense is at dodging threats. One on one you probably won't be able to touch him but ten v. 1 might be a different story.

FireNexus · Post by **FireNexus** » 2007-07-13 12:04pm

My understanding is that of late comic Spidey is like movie Spidey in the webbing department, in that it's made in his body.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2007-07-13 12:17pm

Well, back when he was brewing the webbing himself, he had varied the formula for different results. Some batches were stickier, some was stronger, etcetera. That goes a long way to explain most of the inconsistencies.

OmegaGuy · Post by **OmegaGuy** » 2007-07-13 01:10pm

Spider-man has actually caught bullets with his bare hands

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2007-07-13 01:47pm

FireNexus wrote:My understanding is that of late comic Spidey is like movie Spidey in the webbing department, in that it's made in his body.

No. Main MU Spidey still has the web shooters. I'm not sure about Ultimate.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2007-07-13 02:17pm

havokeff wrote:
FireNexus wrote:My understanding is that of late comic Spidey is like movie Spidey in the webbing department, in that it's made in his body.
No. Main MU Spidey still has the web shooters. I'm not sure about Ultimate.

Nope, my bad. This is the case. Sorry.

avatarxprime · Post by **avatarxprime** » 2007-07-13 10:11pm

Molyneux wrote:If you're giving the X-men time to prepare for fighting Spider-man, it's only fair to give him time to prepare for fighting them.

With equal prep-time on both sides, I can't see the X-men beating Spider-man. He's just too damn quick/strong/precognitive.

Well, no even with equal prep time it's all over for Spidey. Don't forget that Prof. X was present. If he's not taken by surprise, but is fully aware of Spider-man's presence, then he takes Spider-man down with a thought and the rest of the X-Men can go hang out by the pool.

FireNexus" wrote:My understanding is that of late comic Spidey is like movie Spidey in the webbing department, in that it's made in his body.

Well actually it's both. Peter has built in webshooters now but also uses his mechanical webshooters. By and large they have shown the organic upgrades Peter received to be kinda flighty. Although it's mostly dismissed that he simply doesn't have proper control over everything yet.

SCRawl · Post by **SCRawl** » 2007-07-13 10:57pm

avatarxprime wrote:
Molyneux wrote:If you're giving the X-men time to prepare for fighting Spider-man, it's only fair to give him time to prepare for fighting them.

With equal prep-time on both sides, I can't see the X-men beating Spider-man. He's just too damn quick/strong/precognitive.
Well, no even with equal prep time it's all over for Spidey. Don't forget that Prof. X was present. If he's not taken by surprise, but is fully aware of Spider-man's presence, then he takes Spider-man down with a thought and the rest of the X-Men can go hang out by the pool.

I think that the spirit of the exercise is to see how a conflict would be resolved by more conventional means. Having the world's most powerful telepath there to wipe his mind is convenient, but wouldn't answer the question.

To answer more completely the criticism of my suggestion that, with some time to prepare, the assembled X-Men might have had more success against Spider-Man, it is of course proper to say that that would be unfair without giving the same advantage to Spider-Man. I would further say that such preparation on Spidey's side would include not facing them all at the same time, thus removing our ability to answer the question again.

My idea for the sort of preparation to be considered was less along the lines of some elaborate scheme for his entrapment, and more along the lines of a brief huddle to consider tactics. As I said, the X-Men weren't ready for a fight, and were deliberately holding back: their sole purpose was to explain themselves, whereas Spider-Man went off half-cocked.

I might be repeating myself, but I suggest that, in a duke-it-out fight, if Spider-Man's goal was to take out the X-Men, he would have found it near-impossible to do a complete job of it. As it is, he was merely doing one of the things he does best: avoiding getting hit, and moving quickly out of the area. Along the way he was able to incapacitate one or two of them, temporarily. Considering their respective goals, Spidey was the clear winner: he got away, and the X-Men failed to corral him. This isn't the same thing as answering the question of who would win in a stand-up fight.

Napoleon the Clown · Post by **Napoleon the Clown** » 2007-07-14 05:01am

havokeff wrote:
Napoleon the Clown wrote:*snip*(This is all assuming none of the X-Men get pissed enough to shoot Spiderman at close range, which I can find no evidence of him ever dodging. *snip*
I missed this little tid bit

Scroll up dill hole. Not only does the cover SHOW SM dodging Cyclops's Optic blast AT SHORT RANGE, he is doing it while fucking up Colossus and Wolverine.

Do we have any actual approximations of how fast his beam actually moves? I tried finding them on Wikipedia last night but saw nothing about. Also, Storm would conceivably toss lightning bolts faster than Cyclops can move his head. Drop one per square foot for forty feet in every direction and all the spidey sense in the world won't help him. Unless of course it warns him far enough in advance to avoid someone who can control the weather. Storm's a fucking Omega-level. She's nearly a god.

"But that is just a cover!!" Fine.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b367/havokeff/SW4.jpg

Look. What, Cyclops is maybe 15-20 feet away? MISSED. And it's not like the guy has to aim through a scope or anything, he just LOOKS at what he wants to shoot. So Spider-Man, through a combination of Spider-Sense, reflexes and agility moves faster than someone can LOOK. At CLOSE RANGE.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b367/havokeff/SW3.jpg

Hey look. Spider-Man dodged lightning. With this one though, I take back what I said about Storm being able to control lightning, since obviously she can.

Do I need to find the other countless THOUSANDS of times Spidey has dodged a (insert projectile/energy beam here) at close range??

I'd like to see a good indication on just how much lightning he can dodge at once. I don't follow the comic close enough to see just how obscenely wanked the guy has gotten. If he can dodge a shitload of lightning like that he should build himself a lightsaber and go Jedi Master on some asses.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2007-07-14 02:48pm

Napoleon the Clown wrote:Do we have any actual approximations of how fast his beam actually moves? I tried finding them on Wikipedia last night but saw nothing about.

This, I'm not sure about. I don't think they move at light speed or anything that fast. Perhaps a good indication might be how fast they are shown in the movies. Someone with more knowledge than I, would have to figure out how fast that is.

Also, Storm would conceivably toss lightning bolts faster than Cyclops can move his head. Drop one per square foot for forty feet in every direction and all the spidey sense in the world won't help him. Unless of course it warns him far enough in advance to avoid someone who can control the weather. Storm's a fucking Omega-level. She's nearly a god.

Please provide evidence of your conclusion, of how Storm can manipulate the weather, which is what she does, to get lightning to strike faster than Cyclops can hit a button on his palm?
And jeebus. While you were on Wiki, did you read about Spider-Man at all? How about what his spider-sense does. It WARNS HIM OF DANGER. One lightning strike or one per square foot for forty feet, he is going to know about it, and YES avoid it.

I'd like to see a good indication on just how much lightning he can dodge at once. I don't follow the comic close enough to see just how obscenely wanked the guy has gotten. If he can dodge a shitload of lightning like that he should build himself a lightsaber and go Jedi Master on some asses.

The thing with Spider-Man, is that he has actually stayed pretty steady over the years when it comes to his abilities. Aside from Cosmic Spidey that is.
He has always been fast enough to dodge bullets, lightning, optic blasts etc.. He can jump straight up at least 2 or 3 stories. He can throw cars. Like I said earlier, he can run almost 90 mph. He has practicaly perfect balance, he can stick to walls, he can lift/press 10 tons, which is actually more now. 15 I think.
Writers over the years have been pretty decent in staying within these guide lines. His abillities and powers have been fleshed out and explained a little more and he has improved on his skills combining and creating new ones, but that should be expected of someone as intelligent as Peter Parker.
Actually Spidey is usually taken for granted by the rest of the Marvel Super Heroes as a light weight, on par with the likes of Dare Devil, since so much of his history has been fighting normal humans like muggers, bank robbers or his "theme" villans.

Gustav32Vasa · Post by **Gustav32Vasa** » 2007-07-14 03:36pm

Crazedwraith wrote:The only real problem I have in that fight is Rogue being stuck in the webbing. People weaker than her have broken though it before I am sure but then the strength of Spidey's webbing is another of those writer-varible things. At times its said Spidey's never makes webbing that he himself can't break through and at others he gets webbed to a wall by the Looter and has to wait for an hour for it to dissolve.

Still Spidey could have gone with the to the web in the eye thing which is always fun.

Rogue was holding back in the beggining of the Secret Wars. She hadnt decided if she was on the right side, and the Avengers didnt help.

Baal · Post by **Baal** » 2007-07-14 06:35pm

If Spidey had wanted to do damage the fight would have been brutal. Parker isnt dumb, his first move would have crushed Prof X's skull. After that Nightcrawler, Cyclops and Storm would go down just as easy, noneof them can take as much physical damage as Spidey can dish out with a full strength punch if he REALLY wanted to.

This leaves Rogue, Metalboy, and Wolverine. Rogue was unable to escape his webbing and that was just hitting her with one shot of it. Imagine if he had really dosed her. Colassus is armored enough that in form Spidey cant really hurt him but he has proven able to hit a larger stronger foe often and fast enough to stun them into submission. I dont know if this would work with Colassus though.

Wolverine might be unkillable quickly for Spidey but he cannot match Spidey at all for strength and if his arms get pinned by webbing then claws or not he is going to be out of the fight.

So in the ambush as we see it but Spidey hitting to kill he could take down several of the X-Men, tie down the rest and then escape. The last standing X-Men would be Rogue and Colassus. If spidey can pin Rogue in his webbing for even two minutes then possibly he could kill her by webbing her mouth so she sufficates to death. Can Rogue survive without air? That leaves Wolverine who wasnt super wank at this time and would be out of the battle qith massive soft tissue damage (ie Spidey could easily rip his throat out with his bare-hands) as well as Colassus and he is the great unknown. It might come down to the two of them. Spidey might not be able to kill Colassus but the Colassus will never be able to connect on the wallcrawler.

In a straight fight with no ambush it gets much more dicey. Professor X makes the fight impossible unless Spidey can litterally kill him before he has time to think. I dont think he is quite THAT fast. The rest are much more trouble without the surprise but Storm to be is overrated unless given time to summon weather. She takes time to do this and all it takes for Spidey to kill if he really wanted to is a second or two. The only other of importance is Rogue. She is strong and disabling her by surprise is a good idea buit she isnt super fast. She just may be too slow to avoid getting pinned at least for a little bit by a burst of webbing. Ambush or not Nightcrawler, Cyclops, and Wolverine are useless on the field. All are way too slow and the first two in particular wont survive a single spidey full strength punch.

avatarxprime · Post by **avatarxprime** » 2007-07-15 03:41am

SCRawl wrote:*snip*

I understand what you are saying SCRawl, however in terms of the point this all stemmed from and continues to be discussed, that of Spider-Man vs the X-Men assembled at the time, any amount of prep time given to the X-Men automatically makes them the winner due to the fact that Xavier is present. Magically removing him from discussion does nothing but take away an advantage the X-Men have every right to field, which was my only point.

If in the particular situation given in the comic, had the X-Men been given any advanced warning (Spidey seemed to strike at the same time Charles picked him up so I'd say they start at the same time) this would have been over that instant. Xavier telepathically freezes Spider-Man and then does whatever he feels like with his body, such as making him punch himself for example. As Baal brings up in his post, if Peter doesn't take out Xavier before he has time to think, it's all over.

Also of note is that in this particular case Nightcrawler's BAMF is his worst enemy, otherwise he could solo Peter. As evidenced with Spider-Man's fights with The Spot, the Spider-sense cannot warn him about danger coming from another dimension. However, before Kurt re-enters ours he announces his arrival with an explosion that the Spider-sense can pick up on. Otherwise he could teleport around and strike with Peter not being able to respond or at least not as effectively.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2007-07-15 03:58am

Why can't he kill Rogue with a punch? It's not like he's naked.

And Cyclops' lasers? Maybe Spidey's just faster than his neck

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2007-07-15 04:18am

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Why can't he kill Rogue with a punch? It's not like he's naked.

And Cyclops' lasers? Maybe Spidey's just faster than his neck

Spidey probably could kill her with a single punch, but he doesn't kill. Superman could do the same to the Parasite.

Gustav32Vasa · Post by **Gustav32Vasa** » 2007-07-15 04:35am

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Why can't he kill Rogue with a punch? It's not like he's naked.

Because she is invulnerable, 5 times stronger then him and is precognitive.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2007-07-15 04:37am

avatarxprime wrote:
SCRawl wrote:*snip*
I understand what you are saying SCRawl, however in terms of the point this all stemmed from and continues to be discussed, that of Spider-Man vs the X-Men assembled at the time, any amount of prep time given to the X-Men automatically makes them the winner due to the fact that Xavier is present. Magically removing him from discussion does nothing but take away an advantage the X-Men have every right to field, which was my only point.

If in the particular situation given in the comic, had the X-Men been given any advanced warning (Spidey seemed to strike at the same time Charles picked him up so I'd say they start at the same time) this would have been over that instant. Xavier telepathically freezes Spider-Man and then does whatever he feels like with his body, such as making him punch himself for example. As Baal brings up in his post, if Peter doesn't take out Xavier before he has time to think, it's all over.

Also of note is that in this particular case Nightcrawler's BAMF is his worst enemy, otherwise he could solo Peter. As evidenced with Spider-Man's fights with The Spot, the Spider-sense cannot warn him about danger coming from another dimension. However, before Kurt re-enters ours he announces his arrival with an explosion that the Spider-sense can pick up on. Otherwise he could teleport around and strike with Peter not being able to respond or at least not as effectively.

I've always read it as Spidey attacking because Xavier finally detected him, not that he attacked as Xavier detected him.

Again with this Nightcrawler business. What exactly would Nightcrawler do if if he did manage to teleport onto Spidey aside from get a whole mess of broken tail. NC doesn't posses super strength or any kind of invulnerability what so ever. SM could snap his neck before he even teleported again, if he were so inclined.
And while Spidey can't sense danger from another dimension, NC has to start in this dimension and Spidey would sense that threat. He may not know from where he was coming, but he would know he was.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Why can't he kill Rogue with a punch? It's not like he's naked.

And Cyclops' lasers? Maybe Spidey's just faster than his neck

Well, actually, Rogue would have the best chance of defeating Spidey. At this point in history she had all of Ms. Marvel's powers which I believe were a high level of invulnerability, super human strength on a far greater scale than Spidey and super sonic speeds in flight. What kept her out of the fight was SM's webs.

Actually come to think of it, Spidey took out the X-Men in a pretty well thought out fashion. Professor X, who could have stopped him with a thought, and Cyclops, who might have been able to coordinate a cohesive attack, first. Then he blinded Colossus, the strongest. Then Rogue, the second strongest and a power thief, which left Storm, who was fighting indoors with no weather to levee against him, Nightcrawler and Wolverine. The latter two being no real threat.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2007-07-15 04:40am

Gustav32Vasa wrote:
Shroom Man 777 wrote:Why can't he kill Rogue with a punch? It's not like he's naked.
Because she is invulnerable, 5 times stronger then him and is precognitive.

Well she isn't quite precog. She had a sixth sense, where she could anticipate her opponents moves in a fight but that is about the extent of it. Obviously it didn't work out to well for her since she didn't anticipate getting caught up in Spidey's webs.