Palpatine's RedGuard vs. the Sardaukar (Dune)

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-01-10 03:38am

The Sadukar also have the glaring weakness of no Governmental control on Space Travel.They need guild permission to go here or there Imperial Guard hasnt got that restriction

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-10 07:12am

As for example are they capable of literally blocking getting out of the way of any sort of fast moving projectile...and seriously don't use the shield because it is just there because Herbert wanted to throw physics out the door to exclaim why he was using knives in such an advanced age(the amount of force we have seen from a blaster shot...Han's blaster, should be enough to kill a Sardukar in his shield...by literally CoM.

So provide that and you have a better leg to stand on.

Since you didn't answer my question, I'm just going to guess you meant (CoE) "Conservation of Energy" and (CoM) either "Conservation of Matter" or "Conservation of Momentum."

While you haven't stated why you think Dune shields violate the laws of physics (whilst the Force and Star Wars weapons do not), it really doesn't matter in this debate since we have suspension of disbelief.

In SF verses debates, we don't have the luxury of saying "well your technology just isn't realistic, it doesn't work." We just assume it works, and if pushed, we just have to try to theorize how it MIGHT work. But the point is, it works, or else the whole debate is pointless.

I could say "well the Force violates the laws of physics, and therefore I'm throwing it out of the debate.. the Imperial Guardsmen have no superhuman abilities." That wouldn't be fair would it?

I might mention that personal shields exist in the SW universe as well. I suppose you're going to tell me that they also violate the laws of physics and that one shot from Han Solo's blaster would kill Kyle Katarn in his shield.

I might have to re-read the book, but I didn't recall Lady Jessica being extraordinary as a BG. She did drink the water of life, becoming a Reverend Mother (in the normal fashion).. the only difference was that her daughter was in her womb and also recieved the water of life. Thus Alia was unusual, being one of the "pre-born" (possessing all the powers of a Reverend Mother before she was even born).

A Reverend Mother has access to the collective memories of all the line of Reverend Mothers throughout the history of the Bene Gesserit Order.

Lady Jessica displayed the ability to overpower a male Freman who was armed (before she became a Reverend Mother) which greatly impressed the other Fremen present. This was recognized as the "Weirding Way of Battle" which seems to be a type of martial art. Her reflexes, speed, and strenght were such that a warrior (the leader of the Sietch in this case.. Stilgar) that was considered a really kick ass kind of guy was overcome.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-10 07:14am

The Sadukar also have the glaring weakness of no Governmental control on Space Travel.They need guild permission to go here or there Imperial Guard hasnt got that restriction

True. Although arguably the Imperial Guardsmen are subject to the whim of the Emperor. They can't do anything without his permission... or can they?

Still, I don't think it matters since I got the impression we were talking in terms of hand to hand combat here, not in terms of ship combat or something.

We weren't debating how good of combat pilots the two groups were. The Saradaukar are crack land-based commandos.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-01-10 08:01am

True. Although arguably the Imperial Guardsmen are subject to the whim of the Emperor. They can't do anything without his permission... or can they?

Yes they can as a matter of fact, Like Mara Jade they are his roving Agents, If they want to BDZ a planet they have the Authorty to do so, Thier might be hell to pay AFTER the fact but that planets still long gone

Furthermore Comparing the Redicuously Restricted Travel of Dune, VS the Fact your avarage Middle Class of SW can buy thier own spaceship is ludcious to say the least

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-10 08:46am

Okay, point conceded on the "roving agent" thing.

But who cares about their traveling arrangements? We're discussing their prowess in hand to hand combat, not their ability to BDZ a planet or to take a luxury cruise around the galaxy.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-10 08:52am

The Guild is a powerful CORPORATION (IIRC) that is effectively a branch of government due to its power over interstellar travel.

But its interSTELLAR travel.. anybody who can afford a ship can buy one, but if you want to get anywhere fast, you need to pay the Guild. ; )

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-01-10 09:35am

The Guild is a powerful CORPORATION (IIRC) that is effectively a branch of government due to its power over interstellar travel.

Except it has Complete Authomey from any goverment, IT CAN EVEN PREVENT WARS, Troops can only be transported IF you pay the guild and IF you let them

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-10 11:44am

So far you introduced, that you take Suspension of disbeilef to where the site has said we all follow it or there would be no way any of us would argue the whole thought of Jedi, etc. so please, be quiet on this point of nitpick and show something the Sardukar actions that show they are as capable as the books constantly exclaim they are.

You also just forgot about the appendix where Herbert basically goes into what the BG were doing while the event of Arrakis are going on and actually says that the BG severly underestimated Lady Jessica.

Also what revelance is any of her becoming a Revered Mother have got to do with a BG adept or the Sardukar?

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-01-10 03:50pm

ok we've pretty much established that the Imperial Guardsmen would win,barely IMO, against Sardukar. How about the entire Imperial Army -v- the Landrad forces?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-10 03:55pm

In ground combat or all out forces?

In ground combat...I'd still give it to Imps because they have a much more combined forces...then again little in Dune takes into any account of what the forces of the Lansaard.

All out...sorry Dune loses so bad it's not even worth mentioning.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-10 04:47pm

Darth Pounder wrote:How about the entire Imperial Army -v- the Landrad forces?

the Entire army? You realize you are talking about few billion - trillion soldiers with full support, right?

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-01-10 04:53pm

Ghost Rider wrote:In ground combat or all out forces?

In ground combat...I'd still give it to Imps because they have a much more combined forces...then again little in Dune takes into any account of what the forces of the Lansaard.

All out...sorry Dune loses so bad it's not even worth mentioning.

Even I wouldn't give Dune a snowball's chance in hell in ship to ship. Except for this-Guild navigators can sense danger to their ships with precog. They would wisely vacate the area before the fur flies.

Necro99 · Post by **Necro99** » 2003-01-10 05:03pm

Frank Hipper wrote:
Necro99 wrote:Crimson guard win, but the sardaukar is way cooler .
Think of it, gatling gun, razor blade, power armor...
:drool:
You're lettin' that damned min-series lead you astray, bub.

Hell, the only thing i know about the sardaukar's appearance and armaments is the Dune game by westwood! Dont blame me!

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-10 05:35pm

Dune would stand absolutely no chance whatsoever against the Empire, unless they were to somehow get Rebel help.

As we all known, the Empire would beat just about any sci fi in a full scale war except something like the fabeled "Culture" because they can just go around blowing up planets with their Death Star all the while out producing them with their tons of worlds and factories.

First off: Death Star blows up Arrakis... no more spice. Second: Death Star blows up Emperor's planet. Third: Death Star blows up Selusa Secundus... no more Saradukar.

Empire wins.

So far you introduced, that you take Suspension of disbeilef to where the site has said we all follow it or there would be no way any of us would argue the whole thought of Jedi, etc. so please, be quiet on this point of nitpick and show something the Sardukar actions that show they are as capable as the books constantly exclaim they are.

You also just forgot about the appendix where Herbert basically goes into what the BG were doing while the event of Arrakis are going on and actually says that the BG severly underestimated Lady Jessica.

The BG sisterhood relies on the loyalty of its members to control them, and through this system they control the galaxy, by inserting their members into the various houses and branches of government (as advisors to the Emperor, etc) or at least they think they do.

The point is made in the books that they were overconfident, they didn't anticipate they wouldn't be able to control the Qwizats Haderach or that Jessica would be disobedient.

Key word here is disobedient... Jessica was supposed to bear only daughters. But she bore a son instead, to the Duke, to try to bear the QH early (against their wishes) and then protected and trained him her way, rather than their way. That, I think was the extent to which they underestimated her, not in her actual power level as a BG.

It is also stated that the Saradukar are actually somewhat in decline (I forget the exact wording... lowest funding, lowest numbers, spread too thing, etc) at that time, making them the weakest they'd ever been. We do know they made short work of House Atreides though, wiping out most of their army (the few that were left joined smugglers and eventually met up with Paul's Fremen).

The Fremen supposedly became more powerful due to Paul's influence, firing them up and giving them a morale boost as their "messiah." In the movie of course, he gives them the technology of the Weirding Module (rather than just a "Weirding Way of Battle" of the BG sisterhood as his mother taught it) which contributes significantly to their powers.

The main strategy of the Fremen was to deny the Emperor and Great Houses Spice through raids and terror, weakening them financially, and forcing them to come en-masse so they could capture the Emperor himself and force a surrender.

The spice is the great trading comodity in the Empire, and while all of the Great Houses have stockpiles of the stuff hidden away, it can't last forever. Without it, the Guild can't navigate ships through interstellar space, and thus they're stranded in their respective star systems (we assume). So the Empire would easily win by wiping out spice production. By at least the fourth book they were making covert attempts to try and create an artificial means to guide the ships without spice (?) and without the navigators. I guess essentially something akin to the navicomputers in SW that calculate the lightspeed jumps accurately. Beyond that it would just be a matter of building their own freighters or other capable ships to transport the large numbers of travelers.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-10 05:42pm

So far you introduced, that you take Suspension of disbeilef to where the site has said we all follow it or there would be no way any of us would argue the whole thought of Jedi, etc. so please, be quiet on this point of nitpick and show something the Sardukar actions that show they are as capable as the books constantly exclaim they are.

It's easy for the Imperial Guardsmen, because in the movies they do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, they just stand there, and obediently "leave us" when the Emperor tells them to. They just appear as guys with big helmets and red capes, carrying spears. Not too impressive, until you read the outside literature and find out they're the Empire's strongest combat force. ; )

I won't nitpick it, because I was told that Dune Shields "won't work" because they are unrealistic (but I guess SW personal shields are not) and therefore can't be used. I say they could, because you can't just assume a technology "won't work" because of realism, or the debate is pointless. Sort of if I said the Sun Crusher violates the laws of physics, so you can't ever use it. Also, traveling faster than light is impossible, as far as we know, so there goes hyperdrive... and on and on and on.

All their powers are in this Crimson Empire book and all I've seen beyond that is the SW Infinities "New Hope" where they are pretty crappy (Luke and Han Solo take out at least five of them together).

Also what revelance is any of her becoming a Revered Mother have got to do with a BG adept or the Sardukar?

I mentioned it to try and explain what Lady Jessica's powers were, to try to contradict the notion that she was somehow a "super being" and therefore not worthy of a model of BG powers. She showed her combat prowess before she became a Rev. Mother, and I wanted to show just what being a Rev. Mother was. Saradaukar are not Rev. Mothers, obviously.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-01-10 06:59pm

Ender wrote:
Darth Pounder wrote:How about the entire Imperial Army -v- the Landrad forces?
the Entire army? You realize you are talking about few billion - trillion soldiers with full support, right?

Speaking numbers only, they'd be a close match. Children of Dune gives a population estimate of "mega-trillions" and the Empire as being "multi-galactic". Surely, Landsraad forces could number in the trillions.

Jadeite · Post by **Jadeite** » 2003-01-10 08:39pm

Understood. There are no real canon examples of the Sardaukar in actual combat (except when three Sardaukar agents lose quickly to the Fremen). All the references point to the following facts:
-their ferocity in battle derived from their brutal upbringing
-the 10-to-1 comparison to Landsraad conscripts

Not true about the no canon examples. In the new Dune books there are several examples of Sardaukar in combat: the takeover of Ix, the Emperors Spice War (blew up Korona Station over Richese, firebombed a planet, and blockaded another planet) , and the liberation of Ix by House Atreides.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-01-10 09:13pm

Jadeite wrote:
Understood. There are no real canon examples of the Sardaukar in actual combat (except when three Sardaukar agents lose quickly to the Fremen). All the references point to the following facts:
-their ferocity in battle derived from their brutal upbringing
-the 10-to-1 comparison to Landsraad conscripts
Not true about the no canon examples. In the new Dune books there are several examples of Sardaukar in combat: the takeover of Ix, the Emperors Spice War (blew up Korona Station over Richese, firebombed a planet, and blockaded another planet) , and the liberation of Ix by House Atreides.

I, for one, refuse to accept those contradictory abominations as canon.
And, as it stands, Lynch's film is the best visual representations on screen. The new mini-series coming out in March may change that, but I'm not holding my breath!

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-10 09:16pm

And of course... the route of House Atreides in the original (though they were disguised as Harkonnen troops at the time).

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-10 09:17pm

I, for one, refuse to accept those contradictory abominations as canon.

I know that the infamous KJA is onboard for writing those, but so is Herbert's own son. Just how contradictory are they to the original six books? All I know about them is that they take place before the original Dune...

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-01-10 10:23pm

Kurgan wrote:
I, for one, refuse to accept those contradictory abominations as canon.
I know that the infamous KJA is onboard for writing those, but so is Herbert's own son. Just how contradictory are they to the original six books? All I know about them is that they take place before the original Dune...

They fabricate a plot to make RM Mohaim into Jessica's mother. Herbert gave us a mother in the originals, now they come along and claim it was her all along.

They have ancient greek plays being performed on Caladan at a time when humans have for a large part forgotten that Earth even existed.

They have that annoying Rhombur character and his Bene Gesserit wife planning to continue the Vernius line through means of artificial insemenation. Something that is too taboo to even contemplate in the originals.

Ix is a confederacy, and is not ruled by a great house.

I'm not going to read them again to find everything, but for abominable;

They have Paul being born on Kaitain, in the Imperial palace.

They give Leto a first wife and child, then conveniently kill them off.

Elecrans

The Ginaz school. Ginaz was a Great House.

Duncan Idaho's sword was also never "firs' blooded on Grumman" as he said it was.

I could go on with what I hate about them, but until somebody makes me see otherwise, unless Frank Herbert wrote it, it doesn't work for me.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-10 10:33pm

One flaw in using Jessica in anything other than she's a model of perhaps of what the fully trained Bene Gesserit can do in combat...she defeated a fremen...Sardukar are inferior to Fremen. The book pounds this fact in.

So any evidence to anything other than the Sardukar are the second greatest army in the Dune universe?

Because as it stands we have plenty of evidence of what the IG can do...so far there really is none for the Sardukar...and given that the IG are capable of low level Force feats...it makes that much more formidable.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-11 12:42am

Bene Gesserit > Fremen > Saradaukar

but, after Paul and Jessica's influence and training (in the Weirding Way of battle):

Fremen > Bene Gesserit > Saradaukar

The Saradaukar only approach the skills of a Bene Gesserit, it doesn't say they are equal to or greater than.

What sort of "low level force feats" are we talking about here?

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-11 12:44am

Btw, answered my own questions on the Dune prequels things:

[url]http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~gh248/dunefaq ... htmlp/[url]

The estate considers them canon, but many of the fans of the original books do not. I guess this is an example of Wong's "Legal vs. Moral rights" in a fictional canon.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-11 12:46am

http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~gh248/dunefaq/dunefaq4.html

Sorry, typoed that url. ; P

The "new and improved" Fremen, are known as the Fedaykin.