Cellulose Ethenol, 16 units of energy for every unit into it

[Elaro]

All of this isn't looking good for my plan of starting an electric car company when I graduate and be one of the few suppliers of individual transport in a post-oil world...

Reverie aside, what will happen in winter? Do we have enough land to produce twice the consumption rate of biomass to last us through the non-fertile months?

[Edi]

No. Take a good look at how they did things in the 19th and early 20th century. However, this is not going to be an overnight change, it will be a gradual slope. People have coped before, and so they will cope again. It just means giving up a lot of shit that they take for granted these days.

[Starglider]

Doesn't really rate its own thread but this is an interesting article;

Nanocrystals Key to Better Fuel Cells

July 9, 2007

A new way to make cubic zirconia with very small crystal sizes could be key to making hydrogen fuel cells more reliable and cost-effective.

The invention by a team led by Zuhair Munir, distinguished professor of chemical engineering and materials science at UC Davis, was recently included in Nanotech Briefs magazine's Nano50 awards for 2007. The awards recognize technologies, products and people most likely to impact the state of the art in nanotechnology.

Fuel cells combine hydrogen fuel and oxygen from the air to release energy, leaving only water as a waste product. Fuel cells could be an alternative power source for vehicles and other uses, but there are significant challenges to their widespread use. Current fuel cells run at temperatures of 1,500 to 1,800 degrees F (800 to 1,000 degrees C). Just reaching working temperature requires energy, and the heat quickly wears out metal, plastic and ceramic components. Prevailing fuel-cell designs also require an expensive platinum catalyst.

The new technology could allow fuel cells to run at much lower temperatures, 122 to 212 degrees F (50 to 100 degrees C).

Munir, Umberto Anselmi-Tamburini and Sangtae Kim at UC Davis invented a method to make oxides such as cubic zirconia (zirconium oxide) with extremely small grain sizes, on the order of 15 nanometers. A nanometer is one-billionth of a meter, or the size of a few atoms. At that scale, the crystals conduct electricity very well, through the movement of protons. The material could be used in fuel cells that are based on chemical oxides.

Munir was also recipient of the 2007 UC Davis Prize for Undergraduate Teaching and Scholarly Achievement. The prize includes a cash award of $35,000, thought to be the largest of its kind in the nation.

A patent application has been filed for the technology. A paper describing the technique was published in the journal Applied Physics Letters last year. The Nano50 awards will be presented during the National Nano Engineering Conference in Boston, Nov. 14 and 15, 2007.

There are a lot of people searching for better catalysts for fuel cells, these people just seem to have gotten further than most. The reduction in operating temperature is convenient but the real long-term benefit is the elimination of the platinum requirement.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

All of this isn't looking good for my plan of starting an electric car company when I graduate and be one of the few suppliers of individual transport in a post-oil world...

Reverie aside, what will happen in winter? Do we have enough land to produce twice the consumption rate of biomass to last us through the non-fertile months?

....

I cannot believe how fucking naive you are.

How do you think civilization in the northern latitudes has functioned for the past ten thousand years? Everyone from Catal Huyuk and Jericho forward have had to lay up grain supplies for winter and done just fine. Except when the harvest failed; then people starved, but that's the way that agrarian societies work.

[Gil Hamilton]

Further, that's why agrarian cultures were founded in the first place, because they could (usually) produce enough food to make off-seasons more survivable.

I mention kudzu because it's also reasonably hearty. It can grow decently in areas that even go down to -15°C during the winters with regularity, though it favors a reasonably warm climate and, as Broomstick notes, has a variant that grows well in Northern climates.

Besides, if all else fails, you can make warm clothing out of it as the resultant fabric is very similar to hemp. The Japanese have been using it forever to make work clothes, because the stuff is absurdly resistant to tearing and great at handling foul weather. That will help you survive the winter.

[Broomstick]

There are a lot of people searching for better catalysts for fuel cells, these people just seem to have gotten further than most. The reduction in operating temperature is convenient but the real long-term benefit is the elimination of the platinum requirement.

Only if the nanotech described is more cost-effective than platinum. I mean yes, platinum is expensive - yet affordable enough to but used both industrially and decoratively. In fact, platinum is currently being used in auto production (catalytic converters). Sounds like this process could be used for other items than cubic zirconium, I'm sure there would be multiple industrial applications.

The trick is getting production up to industrial levels at an economic price.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I hate to pee in everyone's Cheerios, but who has the backing of powerful corporate lobbyist interests and political megadollars? The agribusiness people who brought us protectionist tariffs, or... the kudzu lobby?

Corn has that "wholesome, down-home Midwest all-American farmer" image and big agribusiness is as all-pervasive as the military contractors, just at a lower tax bracket. They'll bury this under a mountain of taxpayer-subsidized corn, and no, I'm not happy to bring this up.

We won't be able to afford a corn subsidy, we'll need that food crop-quality land for, well, food crops, and we'll cellusoic ethanol allows corn farmers and others to profit from existing food processing waste material. But its still bad for GW and I'm maintaining a "wait and see" attitude on this and every other "great technological hope" that is pettled to solve PO, rather than counting on it and getting used to driving a bigger car.

[Admiral Valdemar]

This isn't cellulosic ethanol, it is biomass gasification. A subtle, but nonetheless, important difference. The technology has been around for 30 years. Why it isn't in use is probably because it's damn expensive. Far more so than ethanol produced today from non-cellulose based sources.

While this has potential, it's the cost in money and energy that holds it down. Transporting biomass is a lot harder than just using NG, so you have to factor that into energy output and the cash needed to maintain adequate supply. It would probably be a better route to take than focusing on the far harder, less beneficial cellulosic ethanol idea.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Decentralization I think is key. It'd be nice to have a decentralized farm system that could subsidize its own cost in industrial products and/or transportation or mechanization with gasification from waste biomass.

Decentralization and where necessary, efficient centralization is the key societal adaption to expensive, less available, less efficient energy resources. Areas need to be self-sufficient and reduce transportation needs or they must be as reliable, efficient, and necessary as possible. The key problem of North America is decentralized suburban/exurban sprawl and car culture.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Decentralization I think is key. It'd be nice to have a decentralized farm system that could subsidize its own cost in industrial products and/or transportation or mechanization with gasification from waste biomass.

Decentralization and where necessary, efficient centralization is the key societal adaption to expensive, less available, less efficient energy resources. Areas need to be self-sufficient and reduce transportation needs or they must be as reliable, efficient, and necessary as possible. The key problem of North America is decentralized suburban/exurban sprawl and car culture.

Barges. If you're going to transport lots of waste plant matter for processing, you want to do it in barges. I suggest focusing production along the Mississippi--Great Lakes drainage basins, which are all connected by canals, from Montana to the St. Lawrence Seaway, Pittsburgh and Chattanooga, the Red River to New Orleans. Extremely cheap transport of bulk goods, with the processing facilities close enough to the Gulf Coast (while back enough to avoid damage from storms) to utilize the existing pipeline network.

[Starglider]

Only if the nanotech described is more cost-effective than platinum.

I'm actually surprised you're acknowledging it as 'nanotechnology'. It's actually what most people are calling 'nanomaterials', in an attempt to take away most the nano-evangalist's examples of real working commercial applications. Perversely in the mean time lots of chemistry that really isn't nanotechnology is being relabelled as such to chase research funding, or even for marketing purposes. I suppose the terms 'passive nanostructured materials', 'active nanostructured materials', 'nanomachinery', 'nanorobotics' and 'nanoassemblers' are going to have to become more mainstream so we can actually distinguish between the different stages of progress; 'nanoparticles' already has, but mostly in a health scare context (thanks again Greenpeace).

I mean yes, platinum is expensive - yet affordable enough to but used both industrially and decoratively. In fact, platinum is currently being used in auto production (catalytic converters).

The current cost isn't the problem; ongoing supply is. I've seen plenty of peak oil catastrophists tag 'and platinum is scarce and will soon run out' onto their long list of objections to fuel cells. Usually I like smacking down these idiots with the fact that unlike oil, metals (other than uranium) dug out of the ground don't actually go anywhere; we're merely converting them from a hard-to-get at diffuse form into a highly refined form sitting around waiting to be collected and recycled as soon as there's an economic incentive to do so. However I have to admit that they have a point with platinum; known platinum reserves are woefully inadequate to support a mass conversion to platinum-based fuel cells. Thus the desirability of being able to use a very common material instead, even without considering the low operating temperature advantage.


Sounds like this process could be used for other items than cubic zirconium, I'm sure there would be multiple industrial applications.

The trick is getting production up to industrial levels at an economic price.[/quote]

[Broomstick]

Only if the nanotech described is more cost-effective than platinum.

I'm actually surprised you're acknowledging it as 'nanotechnology'.

But it is nanotechnology.

It's no secret you and I have a different take on nanotech, but I'm really on your side in the end. I'm just much more skeptical than you in how long it will take to get some of the current dreams into practical use. Different technologies evolve at different rates. Aviation and computers have advanced extremely rapidly. Lasers -- we had those for decades before they became commonplace. In fact, for a quite awhile they were a solution in search of a problem.

I view nanotech somewhat like genetic engineering. We have certainly had some excellent applications in the medical field, such as genetically engineered Factor VIII and Factor IX, insulin, and epoetin that have truly relieved suffering and reduced morbidity, yet there have been continuing problems with, say, using genetic techniques to solve problems like SCIDs or cystic fibrosis or create viable agricultural products. It is such a new field that we haven't enough knowledge to anticipate what obstacles we might encounter, or to understand why things don't always work.

Likewise, we are still learning how to do even the most basic things in nanotech - like manipulate individual atoms, or produce "nano parts" for incorporating into other things, such as nano cubic zirconium for fuel cells.

Perversely in the mean time lots of chemistry that really isn't nanotechnology is being relabelled as such to chase research funding, or even for marketing purposes.

And I just can't approve of such deceptions.

I suppose the terms 'passive nanostructured materials', 'active nanostructured materials', 'nanomachinery', 'nanorobotics' and 'nanoassemblers' are going to have to become more mainstream so we can actually distinguish between the different stages of progress; 'nanoparticles' already has, but mostly in a health scare context (thanks again Greenpeace).

Any new technology generates new vocabulary - in fact the impact on vocabulary in various languages can be used as a dating techique for when particular technologies were invented, and where.

Nano-sized particles certainly CAN be a health hazard, and medical people certainly do discuss them, but it's a shame that the mainstream press emphasizes only the negatives. I've seen some discussion of using nano-sized things to deliver medical therapies inside the body. We're still quite aways off from that - due not only to limitations of the technology but also because of the time required for medical testing.

The current cost isn't the problem; ongoing supply is. I've seen plenty of peak oil catastrophists tag 'and platinum is scarce and will soon run out' onto their long list of objections to fuel cells. Usually I like smacking down these idiots with the fact that unlike oil, metals (other than uranium) dug out of the ground don't actually go anywhere; we're merely converting them from a hard-to-get at diffuse form into a highly refined form sitting around waiting to be collected and recycled as soon as there's an economic incentive to do so.

Thieves have been known to steal catalytic converters off cars now - if you know how to extract the platinium there's sufficient incentive right now. Since platnium is corrosion-resistant it also stays pure for a long time. There are a lot of things of that sort - alunimum is another one. In fact, if I recall alunimum is signficantly cheaper to recycle than mine. Even iron/steel, which does corrode relatively rapidly, is frequently recycled.

Thus the desirability of being able to use a very common material instead, even without considering the low operating temperature advantage.

Such considerations - economics and supply - is why we use copper for electrical wiring rather than silver, even though silver is a superior conductor. A "perfect" solution you can't afford or can't obtain is actually inferior to one less good but more practical.

[Starglider]

I'm just much more skeptical than you in how long it will take to get some of the current dreams into practical use.

Ironically I'm known as a nanoskeptic in various technophile/transhumanist forums (or at least, I used to be when I was active in more places). I persist in predicting that there will be a generous helping of nasty surprises and tough engineering challenges in getting full scale systems working, compared to making nice 10,000-atom physical simulations or even building individual nanomechanism prototypes. There are a lot of people who genuinely believe that as soon as 'someone' (it used to be Zyvex, they've kind of lost their shine though) creates a sufficiently general-purpose nanoscale manipulator, all of their simulations will turn into world-transforming reality nearly overnight (there are in fact people wasting a lot of time trying to optimise their 'bootstrap delay' on this assumption). Even if nanoscale design was as easy as software, which it isn't, there would still be plenty of scope for surprises and upsets in trying to scale the designs. The one thing that could actually make them almost right is a really big dollop of transhuman intelligence, but that's another argument.

Thieves have been known to steal catalytic converters off cars now - if you know how to extract the platinium there's sufficient incentive right now.

True, but the mass of platinum required for total replacement of ICE powered vehicles with platinum-catalyst fuel cell powered vehicles was an order of magnitude greater than the total reserves plus all platinum mined to date, at least according to assorted Peak Oil evangalists. I confess that I did not check the numbers myself, as it's not a debate I normally enter.

Fuel cells are only one of many mitigation strategies, but if one of these advanced fuel cell concepts goes into production along with one of the dense hydrogen storage methods, that's still significant progress. Trains and battery vehicles are good for some things but there will still be a huge demand for long range road vehicles, and for all its flaws hydrogen is still preferable to massive synthetic oil production from coal.

[Broomstick]

One of the mistakes we made is depending so heavily on just one energy source. At the other end of Peak Oil I'd like to see multiple energy sources/means of storage in use. No doubt some will whine it's less efficient than optimizing one source, but sometimes redundancy is better over the long haul than is strict efficiency

[Darth Wong]

Even if hydrogen sucks compared to gasoline, it can still be tremendously helpful in terms of mitigating PO problems. Even if it never made it to consumer vehicles at all (entirely possible) and was only used for government fleets which can handle its elevated maintenance requirements, it could keep public transit systems going. There are already plenty of government vehicles running off fuels which would be quite impractical for general use.

[Gil Hamilton]

Even if hydrogen sucks compared to gasoline, it can still be tremendously helpful in terms of mitigating PO problems. Even if it never made it to consumer vehicles at all (entirely possible) and was only used for government fleets which can handle its elevated maintenance requirements, it could keep public transit systems going. There are already plenty of government vehicles running off fuels which would be quite impractical for general use.

Hydrogen cells can and have been used for public transit and surface boats. I know Iceland is making a considerably amount of their surface fleet hydrogen powered, since they can cheaply produce it with geothermal power. I imagine freight trucks could be powered by it as well.