A bit OT but relevent: Klingon Empire... all Klingons?

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2003-01-10 10:58pm

Something that has always bugged me, but I've never really seen answered in any of the series'. Perhaps it has been explained in the literature:

Are there any Non-Klingon races in the Klingon Empire?

I have my own theories on this: that there must be some non Klingons and on that is the backbone of their industy. My reasoning being, that almost every Klingon we see is deemed a "Klingon Warrior". If it is the goal of every Klingon to "die gloriusly in battle", then who among them would be a common Industrial worker? Who would be the records keeper? A spacefaring empire would NEED these elements in order to function, even the Klingon Empire. Thats why I think that the "Klingons" we see must be from the ruling "warrior caste", whereas the subject races are the ones responsible for doing the menial labor.

I would think, that with some intelligent writing, that this could explain the "klingons" from TOS don't look like the Klingons from the movies on. It is because they ARENT klingons, but rather a subjegated race who has been forced to "adopt the Klingon ways". Ofcourse, those morons usually just rip off their ideas from other Sci Fi series'.

Has anyone read in any of the trek literature about this?
As a side note, has there ever been an instance of Klingons having "pink blood" other than in ST 6? Ah continuity be damned.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-01-10 11:13pm

In some of the comics ridgeless and ridged Klingons live on the same planet and in all appearances seem to be the same species.

Besides, in a DS9 episode(the one where Sisko goes back in time and meets Kirk) Worf implies that the ridgeless are real Klingons and something happened to make them ridged.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-10 11:13pm

They should...maybe some weird servitor races like the Remans...one would think they would share some similarities to how the UFP does(a variety of races with one being more or less the representative).

I mean each respective Empire has shown they have some race they have or used to have as some form of slave labor.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2003-01-10 11:19pm

Besides, in a DS9 episode(the one where Sisko goes back in time and meets Kirk) Worf implies that the ridgeless are real Klingons and something happened to make them ridged.

And I think that was just laziness on the part of the writers. That "something that happened" must've happened by the time of ST:TMP, although NO ONE seems to have any idea what happened

paladin · Post by **paladin** » 2003-01-11 12:35am

Klingons were suppose to be ridged. The budget for TOS did not allow this to happen.

Some Klingons are common laborers. Martok did start out as a civilian laborer aboard a Klingon vessel.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-01-11 01:35am

In the days before TNG but after SFS, there was an influencial novel that had the ridge-less Klingons being genetically altered. The TOS Klingons were fused with human DNA in an attempt to deal with Humans easier. The FASA RPG was based on this. If you ever come across Q'onos being called Klinzhai, that's were it came from as well.
FASA put out an excellent line of pewter ship miniatures, I had almost ALL of them, but gave them away because I didn't think they'd survive a move. *kicks self repeatedly*

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-01-11 01:41am

Coninuity be damned is right. Enterprise would have you believe Klingons looked the TNG way from the start.

So they go from warrior ass-holes, to cool commie super power dudes, back to warriors again? Lame. Blame B&B, naturally. (Hey that rhymes!

)

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-01-11 02:19am

Klingons going from Ridge headed to non ridged to Ridge again?

with this in mind is it any coincidece that B&B could stand for Brain and Bug?

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-11 03:09am

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies.htm

That page has some nice analysis of the Klingon Forehead Problem.

; )

One of his theories helps a little, read on and see... though it's not perfect.

Tootootoo · Post by **Tootootoo** » 2003-01-11 06:58am

I happen to prefer the evolutionary theory myself. Like on earth, humans differ in either skin tone or basic bone structure. Both could be Klingons, just perhaps.. different types? It might be an evolutionary split end, like the difference between tall, blonde Europeans and short, black haired Asians, things like that. The Klingon empire has spanned space far longer then Earth has, they've even been invaded and annexed thousands of years ago by another race. If they were space-faring thousands of years ago, Klingons on different planets may have adapted differently, and lost their forehead ridges while others didn't.
Or it could be two different species that evolved on the same planet, the way that modern humans and "cavemen" did a long long while ago, except in our case the "cavemen" failed to survive. Plus, the ridged forehead seems to indicate that Klingons like to smash their heads together a lot and have been doing so for a long, long time, and the ridgeless ones maybe developped elsewhere and didn't partake in that particular.. activity. Plus there's a big behavioural difference between ridged and non ridged. Non ridged seem just your basic evil. Ridged seem almost animalistic, running around, killing Targs in the forest and getting drunk and bashing their heads together. There was probably some internal strife about it, too, maybe that's why Worf didn't want to talk about it. I bet the ridgeless Klingons made fun of the dumbass ridged ones for their stupidity and the ridged ones got their feelings hurt and didn't want to talk about it anymore. And eventually they just inbreeded enough that the non ridged disappeared.

As for common labourers and stuff, the Empire spans over many systems, they probably annex them and force the populations into work. Also most "Brave warriors" are in the military fleet so there's probably an extensive civilian population who aren't morons. Maybe thats where they put all the non ridged guys.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-11 10:53am

Actually we know that the Klingons had ridges before TOS. Just look at the cloned Khaless who didn't see anything wrong with having ridges. The fact that Worf knew about Klingons not having ridges and was ashamed about it is proof that something was affot. Then we have three TOS Klingons who appeared on DS9, with ridges. So whatever was done to Klingons in the first place was eventually changed. Then we still have that Klingon who looked like a Human who was on Cardassia and sent the Defiant back in time. It seems that some Klingons remained the way they looked for alterior motives.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2003-01-11 09:35pm

Sometime after ST: IV Chirs Claremont wrote "Debt of Honor" for DC comics. In it Comander Kor appears as he did in the TOS. He explains that his race of Klingons (the ridgeless ones) had been dominant in the Empire but due to their setbacks (agaisnt Kirk & co etc..) the ridged Klingons became politically dominant in the Empire.

Now this was a perfectly acceptable answer until all of TOS Klingon Commanders appeared on DS9 with ridges.

By the way "Debt of Honor" is excellent. It has links from before TOS, the series and all the movies through IV. It also has the old style hot looking Romulan women and some hints that Kirk may have more children besides David Marcus

.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-11 09:46pm

The Klingon Empire is a deeply racist state; that much is clear. That they annex territory (which Worf calls "The Old Ways") without incorporating any genetic non-Klingons into their society in any way indicates that they must maintain subjugated species in a perpetual state of marginalization and slavery.

Perhaps this explains why they can sustain a civilization in which it considered dishonourable to be anything but a warrior. All of the engineers, craftsmen, etc. are actually from other species (and the ridgeless Klingons), subjugated by the brutally ruthless ridged Klingons. Perhaps we will see a revolution in the next movie, in which an evil Klingon clone of Riker builds a superweapon, kills the Klingon High Council with it, and then ...

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2003-01-11 10:10pm

Yes, but would the said evil Klingon clone of Captain Riker (feel free to cringe in disgust) be with or without a beard?

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-12 01:39am

You'd still have to assume that somewhere along the line, the TOS Klingons (that re-appear in DS9 for example) had been surgically altered to look like the ridged klingons.

I would just chalk it up to makeup-effects/budget and just assume Klingons always had ridges, but then you have the problem of the DS9 episode where they go back in time and you see both Klingon types (Worf+TOS Klingons).