Question about the IR

[Alexian Cale]

Let me see if this question makes sense [I'm making an assload of question threads, hope ya don't mind]: does anyone know when exactly the Imperial Remnant officially lost the power necessary to conquer the New Republic? I assume it was after DE Palpatine's death?

[Havok]

I don't think the Remnant was formed until well after the DE series.

[Darth Raptor]

Officially, there's no such thing as the Imperial Remnant. The term is a colloquialism, used mainly by the former New Republic and when dealing with them. AFIAK, it remains, and always has been, the Galactic Empire. It's just that at this point in history there's little "galactic" about it, and you have countless Imperial splinter factions claiming succession to Palpatine's First Empire and with varying levels of legitimacy. Whether the Remnant (Paelleon's faction) actually maintains coherent continuity of government is debatable, because after the Alliance took Coruscant, the Empire fucking shattered.

What's also debatable is whether the Remnant ever did lose the ability to fight the Republic. While the NR maintained vastly more territory (with more resources, manpower and infrastructure to draw on), a staggering amount of demilitarization took place. The NR simply was never on much of a war footing politically or militarily- as evidenced by their abysmal performance against the Vong. What the Empire did lose is the will. Paelleon is on good terms with the Skywalker Dynasty (perhaps contributing to the air of legitimacy his faction enjoys) and all it takes is a "brilliant tactician", a Villain of the Week (Thrawn, Daala, Kueller, Clone Palpatine, etc.) to take command of the Empire and constitute a dire threat to the Republic. (:roll:)

[Publius]

The Imperial remnants formally claim the name "Galactic Empire," but the tiny Frankenstein confederation of Moffdoms in the Outer Rim is not, constitutionally speaking, Palpatine's Empire. The Galactic Empire par excellence ceased to exist after the assassination of Xandel Carivus in 46rS, while the Imperial remnants were knitted together from independent petty warlord states in 47rS. There is no constitutional continuity between the two.

[Alexian Cale]

So does anybody know when they lost the power to battle the New Republic? Pellaeon assumed by the HoT duology that the Empire had lost it's ability to win, hence the surrender.

[Noble Ire]

So does anybody know when they lost the power to battle the New Republic? Pellaeon assumed by the HoT duology that the Empire had lost it's ability to win, hence the surrender.

An exact date isn't really known. Pellaeon assumed, and probably rightfully so, that his Remnant no longer had the military power to exert any serious influence on the constituents of the New Republic, and that continuing with traditional Imperial diplomatic policy (ie, accomplishing means through threat or usage of force) would eventually see it crushed. As Darth Raptor points out, up until the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, the Pellaeon's remnant was still far more militarized than the New Republic, and could have still posed a signficant threat if it adopted a belligerent stance on foreign policy once again. However, the NR's infastructural advantage would simply have been too much to overcome when it became clear that open war was the only way to turn back the Imperial encroachment.

On that note, I would guess that the NR surpassed the "Remnant" when it fully solidified its control of the Core region, probably after the planet was retaken following the Reborn Emperor's final defeat, seven years after Endor. With dominion over the nexus of the galaxy's major trade routes, as well as its primary productive facilities, the NR (or GFFA, as it became) was virtually unstoppable, as the Yuuzhan Vong found out.

[Chris OFarrell]

From what I remember, Pealleon did launch a final counter attack on the New Republic after the Black Fleet Crisis. The logic being that the NRDF had taken a great many licks in recent battles and the time was right to try to push hard for new territory then consolidate before the Republic was able to respond.

Ackbar basically bitch slapped them for trying. They had a few tactical successes but ultimately were pushed back even further then they started with for heavy losses. After which Peallon basically said 'fuck this' and forced the Moffs to make peace.

[Alexian Cale]

I don't claim to be an expert on anything post-RotJ (or prior to it, even), but based on what I'm told, the Empire's decline and defeat was primarily due to in-fighting and warlordism rather than the efforts of the Rebellion itself. That said, the New Republic is obviously not as militarized as a regime like the Empire, but they seemed to continue to make advancements in technology and their vessels, where the Hand of Thrawn duology notes that the Empire was forced to get its supplies from pirate congregations and some such.

So, when you say that the Remnant was still more 'militarized', do you mean to say that its military was still greater than that of the New Republic's? I suppose it wouldn't be a stretch, because even into the post-Yuuzhan Vong war, statements have been made that the Empire at its peak is far more powerful than even the Galactic Alliance, despite the decades of disparity in technological advancement.

[Noble Ire]

I don't claim to be an expert on anything post-RotJ (or prior to it, even), but based on what I'm told, the Empire's decline and defeat was primarily due to in-fighting and warlordism rather than the efforts of the Rebellion itself. That said, the New Republic is obviously not as militarized as a regime like the Empire, but they seemed to continue to make advancements in technology and their vessels, where the Hand of Thrawn duology notes that the Empire was forced to get its supplies from pirate congregations and some such.

Imperial fragmentation on a truly massive scale was the only reason that the Rebellion was able to establish the New Republic at all; the amount of military material and personnel that the various warlord expended on their in-fighting is quite staggering. Nevertheless, their weaponry and starship technology was equal to or superior to what the NR fielded up until the end of the Yuuzhan Vong War. The Republic did produce a great many new warship classes, but they were largely designed to fill policing and special operations roles; when it came to actual warfare, the Imperial-II Class Star Destroyers and the handful of surviving Executor-class Dreadnaughts, seized from formely Imperial worlds, were the most powerful weapons in the NR's arsenal.

So, when you say that the Remnant was still more 'militarized', do you mean to say that its military was still greater than that of the New Republic's? I suppose it wouldn't be a stretch, because even into the post-Yuuzhan Vong war, statements have been made that the Empire at its peak is far more powerful than even the Galactic Alliance, despite the decades of disparity in technological advancement.

I refer to the quality and readiness of the Remnant's forces, not quantity. By the Pellaeon-Garvisom Peace Accords, it probably had a few hundred capital ships, whereas the NR doubtless had thousands. However, the Remnant had, per capita, more actual line warships than the NR, and required less of them for defensive operations due to the modest size of Imperial space.

And yes, the Galactic Empire was vastly more powerful than the NR or any other known power known to the Galaxy since before the formation of the Old Republic. Keep in mind, technological advancement is a non-issue; Imperial warships were a product of more than 25,000 years of advancement. A few decades would not and did not see any appreciable improvements.

[Lord Revan]

Well from what I've read In-fighting and Warlordism did cost the Empire dearly for 2 reason imho, first they were unable to cosentrate their full combinied power on the Rebel Alliance/New Republic (the warlords simply didn't trust each others enough) apart certain exceptions (and I think even those didn't control all of the Warlords), second the in-fighting caused a loss off man power and equipment which (especially after the loss of the core regions was hard to replace.

As for being more Militarized, I think what they mean is that imperials had more men/equipment/ships relative to the area they controlled rather then having a greater military force per se.

[VT-16]

Another factor in addition to the reasons stated above, is that the NR at the end of the Galactic Civil War was also constructing their own dreadnoughts to rival the Empire's (following the Black Fleet Crisis). The Viscount-class Star Defender was built to counter rogue heavy warships and according to a small story seed on the WOTC site, the first one was used to attack remaining Imperial warlords and remnants. (Contradicts slightly with its commissioning in Vector Prime, but that could have been a re-commissioning after a period of maintenance.)

[Lazarus]

From what I remember, Pealleon did launch a final counter attack on the New Republic after the Black Fleet Crisis. The logic being that the NRDF had taken a great many licks in recent battles and the time was right to try to push hard for new territory then consolidate before the Republic was able to respond.

Ackbar basically bitch slapped them for trying. They had a few tactical successes but ultimately were pushed back even further then they started with for heavy losses. After which Peallon basically said 'fuck this' and forced the Moffs to make peace.

If you're talking about the Orinda campaign, not really. After Pellaeon consolidated and took command of what came to be known as the Imperial Remnant, he decided that an offensive was required to further consolidate the Remnant's position and to restore Imperial morale. The campaign saw Imperial expansion into the Mid Rim, culminating at the Battle of Orinda, where Pellaeon (on the Star Dreadnaught Reaper) decisively defeated Antilles (commanding from the Lusankya). After this battle, New Republic forces gave up trying to retake the systems they had lost and fortified their positions. It was five years before another NR offensive began, so I'd say that was a pretty successful campaign.

[Ypoknons]

Firstly, read Publius's Sic Transit Gloria. It ties together the vast repository of the EU material in a way that may differ from your own interpretation.

[Chris OFarrell]

From what I remember, Pealleon did launch a final counter attack on the New Republic after the Black Fleet Crisis. The logic being that the NRDF had taken a great many licks in recent battles and the time was right to try to push hard for new territory then consolidate before the Republic was able to respond.

Ackbar basically bitch slapped them for trying. They had a few tactical successes but ultimately were pushed back even further then they started with for heavy losses. After which Peallon basically said 'fuck this' and forced the Moffs to make peace.

If you're talking about the Orinda campaign, not really. After Pellaeon consolidated and took command of what came to be known as the Imperial Remnant, he decided that an offensive was required to further consolidate the Remnant's position and to restore Imperial morale. The campaign saw Imperial expansion into the Mid Rim, culminating at the Battle of Orinda, where Pellaeon (on the Star Dreadnaught Reaper) decisively defeated Antilles (commanding from the Lusankya). After this battle, New Republic forces gave up trying to retake the systems they had lost and fortified their positions. It was five years before another NR offensive began, so I'd say that was a pretty successful campaign.

No I was talking about a later campaign I recall. Wookiepedia talks about it at the least, take it as you will.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial ... 319_ABY.29

[FTeik]

If I remember the handful of quotes from CTD correct at the time of BFC a fifth of the galaxy was still under quasi-imperial control (at the same time the NR directly controlled 11,000 systems according to Leia Organa, there has to be a much larger concentration of states and systems, that are allied with the NR for that to make sense).

[PainRack]

From what I remember, Pealleon did launch a final counter attack on the New Republic after the Black Fleet Crisis. The logic being that the NRDF had taken a great many licks in recent battles and the time was right to try to push hard for new territory then consolidate before the Republic was able to respond.

Ackbar basically bitch slapped them for trying. They had a few tactical successes but ultimately were pushed back even further then they started with for heavy losses. After which Peallon basically said 'fuck this' and forced the Moffs to make peace.

I'm a bit confused though.... Was Pealleon actions before or during the period where Ackbar begun the standardisation and new designs of the Rebel Fleet? Because the conflict apparently ended just months before the Correllian crisis and the NRDF was in such a state of stand-down that they couldn't appropiately respond.

Well from what I've read In-fighting and Warlordism did cost the Empire dearly for 2 reason imho, first they were unable to cosentrate their full combinied power on the Rebel Alliance/New Republic (the warlords simply didn't trust each others enough) apart certain exceptions (and I think even those didn't control all of the Warlords), second the in-fighting caused a loss off man power and equipment which (especially after the loss of the core regions was hard to replace.

As for being more Militarized, I think what they mean is that imperials had more men/equipment/ships relative to the area they controlled rather then having a greater military force per se.

From what I understand, the ending days of Rome and the Qing dynasty could apply here. Individual warlords, while presumably committed to Rome and the central government could not committ forces against external threats, as they were required to watch each other.

[Alexian Cale]

Are the circumstances in which Pellaeon defeated Wedge known? Is it featured in a book?

[VT-16]

Mentioned in Before the Storm and noted in both Essential Chronologies. Wookieepedia has some info on the battle as well, compiled from these sources.

[Publius]

It was first mentioned in Before the Storm ("At Orinda, the commander of the fleet carrier Endurance had kept his pilots waiting in the launch bays, to protect the smaller craft from Imperial fire as long as possible. They were still there when Endurance took the brunt of a Super Star Destroyer attack and vanished in a ball of metal fire."). The incident was placed in late 47rS and somewhat expanded upon in The Essential Chronology:

Six months after Daala relinquished her command, Pellaeon made an aggressive lunge at the New Republic by seizing the small planet Orinda. The New Republic was slow to respond. By the time General Antilles mounted a counterattack from the bridge of the Lusankya, Pellaeon had already captured six neighboring systems. In a month-long campaign, the New Republic pushed Pellaeon back, but suffered a grievous defeat in the Battle of Orinda. There, the Reaper destroyed most of Antilles's starfighters by annihilating the fleet carrier Endurance. Rogue Squadron, stationed aboard the Lusankya, covered the fleet's retreat. The New Republic chose to leave Orinda in Imperial hands and instead fortified the surrounding systems.

However, Chris OFarrell is referring to the disastrous irredentist campaigns of 52 - 53rS in The Essential Chronology, in which Pellaeon and the ersatz Deep Core warlords simultaneously attacked the New Republic (which had just concluded the tragicomedy of errors with the Koornacht Cluster and then dealt with Kueller's terror campaign). The uncoordinated warlords were crushed one after another by Garm Bel Iblis's Fourth New Republic Fleet, while Pellaeon was soundly defeated by the Third and Fifth New Republic Fleets, leaving him with "a mere eight sectors of a strategically barren section of the Outer Rim."

This campaign came after enough New Class warships were added to establish an entirely new numbered fleet (50rS). However, as The Essential Chronology points out, it was a severe and decisive defeat ("the New Republic's enemies were in retreat, their navies spent"). As a result, the Supreme Commander New Republic Defense Force "took advantage of the temporary respite to order most warships into dry dock for repairs and upgrades," and "those fleet vessels not affected by the recall were put to work patrolling the borders of the Empire and the Deep Core." The NRDF was thus inadequately prepared to deal with an internal crisis such as the Starbuster Plot of 53rS.

[TC Pilot]

Perhaps Pellaeon's greatest defeat was when the Super Star Destroyer Reaper was destroyed in an engagement with Ackbar a year after Orinda.

The campaign between Pellaeon and Ackbar is one of those chapters of the EU that would be excellent material for a novel.

[Alexian Cale]

The campaign between Pellaeon and Ackbar is one of those chapters of the EU that would be excellent material for a novel.

Agreed.

Though he has mixed receptions around here, Admiral Pellaeon is easily among my very favorite characters in the SW mythos. To me, he was the Watson to Thrawn's Holmes, and it made him such an excellent character. One of my favorite aspects of his story is that he was always around to pick up the pieces, per se, after Endor, Bilbrigi, and the disasterous campaign orchestrated by Daala.

That said, I feel bad for him, because he's not in Ackbar's league as a tactition. I dislike how the Empire went on a losing streak and got its collective ass kicked; I enjoy reading primarily about Imperial victories.

I root for the bad guys.

[TC Pilot]

One of my favorite aspects of his story is that he was always around to pick up the pieces, per se, after Endor, Bilbrigi, and the disasterous campaign orchestrated by Daala.

Yes, his talent for running away never ceases.

[Alexian Cale]

Yes, his talent for running away never ceases.

Again, I'm a virtual neophyte compared to the experts here, but from what I know, I'd say that's a misleading assessment of Pellaeon. In The Final Prophecy, Wedge comments to his lieutenant that Admiral Pellaeon's ability to acknowledge his limits was the "best thing" about him. That he didn't have an inflated opinion of himself, which is what Wedge declares was the reason that the Empire was defeated by the New Republic. They overestimated their capabilities (which is one of the major contributions to the warlordism that plagued the Empire) which led to their defeat.

Luke also comments in Force Heretic: Remnant that Pellaeon isn't well known for "giving up" and that he's a "survivor".

[Chris OFarrell]

Your going to start a whole new thread with THAT comment, suffice to say some people here hate Pellaeon for his taking command of the fleet at Endor after the DS2 destruction, illegaly, and ordering a retreat.

Its the subject of a lot of flaming on this board.

I personally just chalk the whole thing up to twenty different EU authors trying to write the aftermath of the Battle of Endor, ending up with absurd plots that make little sense, but thats SW canon for you.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Another factor in addition to the reasons stated above, is that the NR at the end of the Galactic Civil War was also constructing their own dreadnoughts to rival the Empire's (following the Black Fleet Crisis). The Viscount-class Star Defender was built to counter rogue heavy warships and according to a small story seed on the WOTC site, the first one was used to attack remaining Imperial warlords and remnants. (Contradicts slightly with its commissioning in Vector Prime, but that could have been a re-commissioning after a period of maintenance.)

Do you have a link to this story?