Attacking a criminal during a robbery

[Knife]

Lol, you can sum up a lot of this by just saying it depends on your threat analysis. Every situation is different, but by judging the treat on each escalation, you can make the determination to either stay meek or try to counter attack.

I ain't going to die for loose change in my wallet, but if the guy has no intentions of letting me live through the experience, hell yeah I'm fighting. Of course then technically it's not about my wallet anymore but it's still the criminals target.

So you really can't say 'fighting over your wallet isn't worth it' anymore than you can say 'fight them all the time'. Then again, a healthy does of threat assesment goes a long way to keeping you out of those situations anyway.

[rhoenix]

So you really can't say 'fighting over your wallet isn't worth it' anymore than you can say 'fight them all the time'. Then again, a healthy does of threat assesment goes a long way to keeping you out of those situations anyway.

Agreed - this is the point I was attempting to make earlier, but I likely should've worded it better.

Yes, technically this is a "me, too!" post, but Knife here put it much better than I did.

[chitoryu12]

So you really can't say 'fighting over your wallet isn't worth it' anymore than you can say 'fight them all the time'. Then again, a healthy does of threat assesment goes a long way to keeping you out of those situations anyway.

Agreed - this is the point I was attempting to make earlier, but I likely should've worded it better.

Yes, technically this is a "me, too!" post, but Knife here put it much better than I did.

I would think so. I'm also in agreement. If you're in danger, go ahead and swing. But if you have barely anything to give up, go ahead. It's not worth anything. Unfortunately, I've seen people kill over twenty bucks, so carrying low amounts of cash doesn't really alleviate the problem with all the sick fucks in the world.

[Stuart]

I ain't going to die for loose change in my wallet, but if the guy has no intentions of letting me live through the experience, hell yeah I'm fighting. Of course then technically it's not about my wallet anymore but it's still the criminals target.

The only problem with that is that you have no knowledge of whether the goblin intends to let you live through the experience until its too late. On the other hand, he catches a glimpse of your sidearm and he's gone. He doesn't want to get killed over a pocket full of small change any more than you do. Say again, if a goblin even thinks you are willing and able to defend yourself, he's going to think "plenty more fish in the sea" and try somebody else.

[PeZook]

The only problem with that is that you have no knowledge of whether the goblin intends to let you live through the experience until its too late. On the other hand, he catches a glimpse of your sidearm and he's gone. He doesn't want to get killed over a pocket full of small change any more than you do. Say again, if a goblin even thinks you are willing and able to defend yourself, he's going to think "plenty more fish in the sea" and try somebody else.

Unless he's high, drunk or hopped up on adrenaline.

[Stuart]

Unless he's high, drunk or hopped up on adrenaline.

If he's drunk or drugged out he's probably going to kill you anyway so the point is moot. Goblins are very rarely on an adrenaline high, usually their scared still. Remember, you know what your facing, he doesn't. You could be an undercover cop, an armed citizen, another goblin anything. He doesn't know so he's more scared than you are.

The overwhelmingly common case (based on a lot of discussions with LEOs) is that the goblin is looking for a way to get easy money with the least possible risk. So he'll pick the victim who looks like he presents little risk.

With an armed citizen, the conversation usually goes "Gimme your wall ... OH SHIT!" followed by the patter of tiny feet as the goblin makes a run for it.

My whole point is that its not necessary to put up a fight, if you look like you can (and wearing a light jacket in the middle of summer is a good way of doing that) the goblin will go elsewhere. The best way to fight is to make sure one never starts.

[Turin]

Wait, wasn't this thread dedicated to the logic in fighting back against a robber? Shouldn't we stick this arguement somewhere else?

Chitoryu, you are a fucking shithead coward. The argument in the other thread was originally about whether a group of people should have taken on a robber. Which you've dishonestly changed into this travesty of a faux macho bullshit thread. From the previous thread which you ran away from because you're a cowardly shit:

I don't advocate playing hero and trying to make a one-man stand against and armed man.

Really?

Most times the only "heroes" involved in these situations are the ones who pull their own hidden gun and blast the guys.

Woo, woo. Yeah, civilians should totally fucking blow the guy away just like Steven Segal did in that one movie! Because there's no way that'll end up in someone innocent getting killed! Ra ra!

I do, however, advocate having everyone who is capable and has the chance to simultaneously attack him. I've seen it done before during a robbery in England, and it worked well.

And it could have just as easily ended up with a lot of fucking dead people, you twat. But you seem to think that people cowering in fear of a weapon is funny, so I guess that should be expected:

The funniest thing I saw was on Court TV when they showed camera footage of a bar robbery. There was one robber, armed with a small semi-auto, who managed to scare everybody into compliance. He didn't even have enough ammo in one magazine to kill everyone and it's doubtful he was smart enough to pack extra.

It appears you also expect innocent bystanders to have x-ray vision to determine the number of rounds available to the gunman.

Stupid morons like you get reasonable people who decide to play it safe killed in situations like this.

[Turin]

Ghetto edit: I'm expecting you to address this argument, in this thread, you little shit. No running away this time, fuck face.

[chitoryu12]

I have no need to run away, seeing as how this is the proper thread, and I won't piss off the mods or break any rules by not posting in the relevant thread. So let's begin.

Woo, woo. Yeah, civilians should totally fucking blow the guy away just like Steven Segal did in that one movie! Because there's no way that'll end up in someone innocent getting killed! Ra ra!

I didn't say that they should. Where did I say that civilians should just draw their own gun and start shooting? And I don't count them as heroes because in the end, someone ends up dead, and a suspect's life is still a life, whether he is morally bankrupt or not. You don't kill someone unless he is actively trying to kill you, and even then incapacitation, if possible, is a better alternative.

And it could have just as easily ended up with a lot of fucking dead people, you twat. But you seem to think that people cowering in fear of a weapon is funny, so I guess that should be expected:

And I have said in this thread that you should take the situation into account before attacking because you don't want to end making him accidently pull the trigger or stabbing a hostage in the jugular. And I considered it humorous because one man with a small weapon was able to not only make a whole large room cower, while even ignoring the people for almost a full minute straight.

It appears you also expect innocent bystanders to have x-ray vision to determine the number of rounds available to the gunman.

How many times does a robber expect to get in a shootout with criminals? They won't pack any more than they need unless they're planning on murdering most of the people. Hell, you can rob a store with a water gun. They know that the mere threat of a gun is enough to scare others into comploance.

Ghetto edit: I'm expecting you to address this argument, in this thread, you little shit. No running away this time, fuck face.

Do you repeat yourself often?

[Turin]

I didn't say that they should. Where did I say that civilians should just draw their own gun and start shooting? And I don't count them as heroes because in the end, someone ends up dead, and a suspect's life is still a life, whether he is morally bankrupt or not.

Oh nice of you to make this easy for me. An outright lie:

Most times the only "heroes" involved in these situations are the ones who pull their own hidden gun and blast the guys.

And it could have just as easily ended up with a lot of fucking dead people, you twat. But you seem to think that people cowering in fear of a weapon is funny, so I guess that should be expected

And I considered it humorous because one man with a small weapon was able to not only make a whole large room cower, while even ignoring the people for almost a full minute straight.

So in other words... you think that people cowering in fear is funny? Oh gee, wasn't that what I just said, shitface?

It appears you also expect innocent bystanders to have x-ray vision to determine the number of rounds available to the gunman.

How many times does a robber expect to get in a shootout with criminals?

With other criminals? Probably not very often.

They won't pack any more than they need unless they're planning on murdering most of the people. Hell, you can rob a store with a water gun. They know that the mere threat of a gun is enough to scare others into comploance.

Nice to see you're willing to risk other people's lives hoping that's the case, shitstain. Wait a minute... what the fuck are you arguing here? Some asshole goes "hm, yeah, there'll probably be 5 guys in the store, so I'll take only 10 bullets just to make sure I have enough"? What an idiot.

Ghetto edit: I'm expecting you to address this argument, in this thread, you little shit. No running away this time, fuck face.

Do you repeat yourself often?

What?

[chitoryu12]

Oh nice of you to make this easy for me. An outright lie:

So what's the purpose of putting "heroes" in quotes? Decoration?

So in other words... you think that people cowering in fear is funny? Oh gee, wasn't that what I just said, shitface?

I think people cowering in fear from a person who can't even focus on the job and is carrying a tiny weapon is funny as he obviously is little danger. If he was carrying, say, an automatic weapon, then yes, I would be afraid too.

With other criminals? Probably not very often.

I meant cops. I'm trying to multitask with my online schooling. Though there was an episode of Masters of Horror where two serial killers fought over a target.

Nice to see you're willing to risk other people's lives hoping that's the case, shitstain. Wait a minute... what the fuck are you arguing here? Some asshole goes "hm, yeah, there'll probably be 5 guys in the store, so I'll take only 10 bullets just to make sure I have enough"? What an idiot.

It's common sense. A criminal won't load up on ammunition unless he's planning on killing as many people as he can in the first place or starting a gunfight. You can rob a store with an unloaded Desert Eagle, and people will still treat it as if it's loaded.

What?

You already said at the beginning of the first post not to run away to another forum.

[Turin]

Oh nice of you to make this easy for me. An outright lie:

So what's the purpose of putting "heroes" in quotes? Decoration?

See, this is why I didn't want you running away to another thread, you little shit. The context (such as it is) makes it clear that you considered it cowardly not to attack the bad guy. So fuck off with you "decoration" shit. You said:

Indeed. Most times the only "heroes" involved in these situations are the ones who pull their own hidden gun and blast the guys. The funniest thing I saw was on Court TV when they showed camera footage of a bar robbery. There was one robber, armed with a small semi-auto, who managed to scare everybody into compliance. He didn't even have enough ammo in one magazine to kill everyone and it's doubtful he was smart enough to pack extra. He even spent thirty full seconds directing two guys who entered behind the bar. That's thirty seconds with his back to half the crowd, who still just cowered on the floor.

So in other words... you think that people cowering in fear is funny? Oh gee, wasn't that what I just said, shitface?

I think people cowering in fear from a person who can't even focus on the job and is carrying a tiny weapon is funny as he obviously is little danger. If he was carrying, say, an automatic weapon, then yes, I would be afraid too.

Well excuse the fuck out of everyone else for not being so macho and brave as you. What a bunch of pussies, afraid of being shot by a little .38 revolver. Why, back in my day, we ate bullets and shit shell casings!

How about this one, dumbass, since you seem to refuse to address it: if the guy is not directly and immediately threatening people, why the fuck would you escalate the situation? Oh, I forgot, you're ready with your hidden Glock and your dulled katana.

Nice to see you're willing to risk other people's lives hoping that's the case, shitstain. Wait a minute... what the fuck are you arguing here? Some asshole goes "hm, yeah, there'll probably be 5 guys in the store, so I'll take only 10 bullets just to make sure I have enough"? What an idiot.

It's common sense. A criminal won't load up on ammunition unless he's planning on killing as many people as he can in the first place or starting a gunfight. You can rob a store with an unloaded Desert Eagle, and people will still treat it as if it's loaded.

Holy flying spaghetti monster, you're dense. That's your fucking argument? "It's common sense that a guy with a gun won't have it loaded"? Yeah, he might not have it loaded, or he could have two brain cells to rub together and say "hey, maybe I should have some bullets in this gun just in case I run into some dumbshit 'hero' like Chithead, huh?" Guess how many bullets it takes to kill you? One, dumbass. Sure, maybe more than one, but one can certainly do the job. But no, you go right ahead, escalate a situation and potentially get someone else killed because of your sorry excuse for common sense.

What?

You already said at the beginning of the first post not to run away to another forum.

Oh. Well, I guess I thought you were too goddamn dumb to get it the first time I said it.

[Julhelm]

Here at least if someone robs you on the street or robs a store, there's like an 80-90% chance he's using an airsoft replica or even a watergun. If he can afford real guns, he's most likely going for bigger fish like money transports or post offices. What this means is you can most likely get away with clobbering the guy wielding his little airsoft replica.

I suppose though it's different in the states.

[Turin]

Here at least if someone robs you on the street or robs a store, there's like an 80-90% chance he's using an airsoft replica or even a watergun. If he can afford real guns, he's most likely going for bigger fish like money transports or post offices. What this means is you can most likely get away with clobbering the guy wielding his little airsoft replica.

I suppose though it's different in the states.

Ignoring for the moment the fact that your numbers are utterly rectally derived, chithead lives in Florida, which I can assure you is awash in firearms as much as anywhere else in the US.

[Julhelm]

Ignoring for the moment the fact that your numbers are utterly rectally derived, chithead lives in Florida, which I can assure you is awash in firearms as much as anywhere else in the US.

How would you know that? Do you have magical access to swedish local news from Skåne?

I suppose you've already made up your mind about how the world really is, but I hate to tell you that not only are we quite awash in guns ourselves down here, but also that because all privately owned firearms are stored in legally mandated armored vaults, the price for a gun on the black market tends to be rather high and as a result, most non-professional criminals like junkies, teenagers and other assorted trash tend to use airsoft replicas. Actually the real hardcore criminals like biker gangs and career robbers tend to simply hit the army's mobilization warehouses. When criminals use guns here, it's either in a shootout with other criminals or with the police. Even if we cound murders, guns are used almost exclusively in cases where the victim is already involved with the criminal world. In fact, the last time I remember hearing about an innocent bystander being shot in a robbery was a kid in Hörby way back in like 89', and that was only because his dad (with his kid in the car) decided to play sheriff and pursued a couple of assault-rifle wielding bankrobbers. You deduce the numbers from the math, sir.

[Ghost Rider]

Ignoring for the moment the fact that your numbers are utterly rectally derived, chithead lives in Florida, which I can assure you is awash in firearms as much as anywhere else in the US.

How would you know that? Do you have magical access to swedish local news from Skåne?

I suppose you've already made up your mind about how the world really is, but I hate to tell you that not only are we quite awash in guns ourselves down here, but also that because all privately owned firearms are stored in legally mandated armored vaults, the price for a gun on the black market tends to be rather high and as a result, most non-professional criminals like junkies, teenagers and other assorted trash tend to use airsoft replicas. Actually the real hardcore criminals like biker gangs and career robbers tend to simply hit the army's mobilization warehouses. When criminals use guns here, it's either in a shootout with other criminals or with the police. Even if we cound murders, guns are used almost exclusively in cases where the victim is already involved with the criminal world. In fact, the last time I remember hearing about an innocent bystander being shot in a robbery was a kid in Hörby way back in like 89', and that was only because his dad (with his kid in the car) decided to play sheriff and pursued a couple of assault-rifle wielding bankrobbers. You deduce the numbers from the math, sir.

So instead of this, you are going to provide proof, right?

You actually are asking him to prove you wrong when he accused you of pulling the stat from nowhere. So provide the numbers, prove him wrong.

[Turin]

Ignoring for the moment the fact that your numbers are utterly rectally derived, chithead lives in Florida, which I can assure you is awash in firearms as much as anywhere else in the US.

How would you know that? Do you have magical access to swedish local news from Skåne?

No, I'm making an assumption that you pulled a random number out of your ass. I don't doubt that your general assessment of the situation is correct, but when I see numbers thrown around like 80-90%, I expect to see evidence.

I suppose you've already made up your mind about how the world really is,

Oh piss off. The point was that Florida isn't Sweden, so you pulling some random number out of your ass about how many criminals use guns was completely worthless. I live in the states, and I if I wanted a handgun to commit a murder, I could easily have one in hand within a few hours, all the "background check" bullshit notwithstanding. Straw buyers supply guns for a couple hundred bucks. Your experience in Sweden is completely irrelevant.

You deduce the numbers from the math, sir.

For someone who's talking about math and numbers, I'm seeing a distinct lack of them. Get a grip.

[Big Phil]

Turin, can you do the rest of us a favor and elucidate whatever point(s) you're trying to make? You've posted a half dozen times with little substance other than "Chitoryu is a douchebag!"

[Turin]

Turin, can you do the rest of us a favor and elucidate whatever point(s) you're trying to make? You've posted a half dozen times with little substance other than "Chitoryu is a douchebag!"

Sorry, I thought was I was pretty clear: attacking an armed gunman is foolish when he's not posing an immediate threat because it only escalates the situation.

In the example Chithead brought up, it would not only increase the personal danger to the attacker but potentially get someone else killed. This is the point he refuses to address, which is why this is going round-and-round.

[Turin]

Apologies for the double-post, but the reason I'm getting so irate with him is because his defense is utterly retarded -- he's honestly arguing that you should attack the guy because the gun might not be loaded!

[Big Phil]

Turin, can you do the rest of us a favor and elucidate whatever point(s) you're trying to make? You've posted a half dozen times with little substance other than "Chitoryu is a douchebag!"

Sorry, I thought was I was pretty clear: attacking an armed gunman is foolish when he's not posing an immediate threat because it only escalates the situation.

In the example Chithead brought up, it would not only increase the personal danger to the attacker but potentially get someone else killed. This is the point he refuses to address, which is why this is going round-and-round.

Isn't the fact that he's armed, however, an imminent threat? Presumably you mean he's not threatening to kill anyone, correct?

[Julhelm]

Sorry for the delay, I was busy watching a dvd with my gf.

Don't have any stats from Sweden in english readily available, but here are a couple from Canada and the UK:

This report, from Canada, says about 40% of guns used in robberies are fake.
http://www.safety-council.org/news/sc/2 ... s-jan.html

This one, from a local constabulary in the UK, reports 28%.

http://www.gun-control-network.org/CI01.htm

Rise in Legal Gun Ownership Making Firearm Incident Situation Worse (Wiltshire Police) - August 2006

OF THE 109 INCIDENTS to which Wiltshire Constabulary's armed officers were called in 2005, 31 involved replica weapons, BB guns and airguns. Officers fear a tragedy is just waiting to happen. And because legal weapon ownership has increased significantly in the last five years police are concerned that this is making the situation worse, because they can no longer assume when they are called out that they are dealing with fake gun (Swindon Advertiser, 1 August 2006).

Of course, stats like these vary from country to country, but the 80-90% ratio I was talking about for my area is a fairly realistic one.

I think I can dig up more reports such as these tomorrow after I finish work.

[Julhelm]

[quote="Turin"]Oh piss off. The point was that Florida isn't Sweden, so you pulling some random number out of your ass about how many criminals use guns was completely worthless. I live in the states, and I if I wanted a handgun to commit a murder, I could easily have one in hand within a few hours, all the "background check" bullshit notwithstanding. Straw buyers supply guns for a couple hundred bucks. Your experience in Sweden is completely irrelevant.quote]
I hate to dissapoint you, but my experience is completely relevant to someone who lives in Sweden and might be reading this thread. I didn't see a disclaimer stating this thread was about armed robbery in the US alone or I wouldn't have bothered posting at all.

[Stuart]

I hate to dissapoint you, but my experience is completely relevant to someone who lives in Sweden and might be reading this thread. I didn't see a disclaimer stating this thread was about armed robbery in the US alone or I wouldn't have bothered posting at all.

Concur.

However, where I would take issue with you is the implied assertion that the overwhelming majority of assaults/street robberies are carried out with guns or quasi-guns. Going by anecdotal and press coverage around here, I would say that the majority of such crimes are carried out using knives and/or the infamous blunt object (here baseball bat). That makes a big difference. It also means that the perp is going to be even mroe frightened; his nightmare is pulling a robbery and finding he's the one staring at a deadly weapon.

Do you have information on the use of knives and blunt objects in Swedish street crime. Also (this is a semi-professional question) how many such crimes are carried out by non-Swedes - if you have a split down by nationality of non-Swedes, that would be great.

One LEO at our gun club said the best self-defense weapon you can carry is an NRA Life Member baseball cap. No perp is going to mess with you, the chance of getting shot is just too high.

[Justforfun000]

hmm. Apparently I'm being ignored? You'd think
i asked for a house address or something.