"World War Hulk" - Commentary and Discussion

[Rye]

Ooooh, Juggernaut? Was this the pussified excalibur version that's gone all weedy, or the proper "you can't stop me even if you flay me down to my skeleton" Juggernaut?

[Loner]

Don't forget a certain someone gets a taste of fist.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Ooooh, Juggernaut? Was this the pussified excalibur version that's gone all weedy, or the proper "you can't stop me even if you flay me down to my skeleton" Juggernaut?

It was the Pussified Excalibur version with a power-up to full power (He swore "Blood And souls to my Lord Cytorrak!".).

Hulk broke him over his knee. "This can't be happening, I'm the J-"

[SylasGaunt]

ARGH! The comic shop's order got messed up so Issue 2 won't be in until friday.. they got the rest though and I have to say Hulk's been kicking the shit out of everything in his way.

And I haven't been current with Ghost Rider but.. when the hell did he get so powerful? I mean he knocked a building over with that damn chain.. though I had a big BWAHAHAHA at Tony and Reed at that last big..

http://community.livejournal.com/scans_ ... tml#cutid1

[SylasGaunt]

Ooooh, Juggernaut? Was this the pussified excalibur version that's gone all weedy, or the proper "you can't stop me even if you flay me down to my skeleton" Juggernaut?

It was the Pussified Excalibur version with a power-up to full power (He swore "Blood And souls to my Lord Cytorrak!".).

Hulk broke him over his knee. "This can't be happening, I'm the J-"

I personally was having trouble figuring out whether this was due to Hulk's bigger, badder form of Pissedofftitude, or if Cytorrak decided to fuck with Juggie.. either way he got rocked. Hard.

[Lonestar]

WWH: Hulk smash puny humans.

Spoilerish for this weeks tie ins.


Did he ever, I think half the MU queued up to get hit in the face by the Hulk this week, the X-men, Juggernaut, The FF, the Avengers (both the real set and Tony's pretenders),
.

[nitpick] Tony's is the real set. [/nitpick]

And Breaking Colossus's arms was all kinds of badass.

"There was a time you might have even been a threat to me...*KRRACCK*"

[TheDarkling]

[nitpick] Tony's is the real set. [/nitpick]

Not in my book.

The Avengers are Cap's team of heroes not Stark's team of government enforcers.

[Lonestar]

As opposed to Tony Stark who was a founding member? The Avengers don't skulk in the dark.

[Manus Celer Dei]

And I haven't been current with Ghost Rider but.. when the hell did he get so powerful? I mean he knocked a building over with that damn chain.. though I had a big BWAHAHAHA at Tony and Reed at that last big..

Ghost Rider has been massively more powerful in this new series; earlier on he put the hurt on Dr. Strange easily. It's not clear exactly why yet, but Numucet's big exposition speech, Johnny beginning to lose control more and more often and Strange's commentary in the WWH issue seem to imply that it's something to do with his connection with the Spirit of Vengeance being "turned up to eleven".

It's good to see the Illuminators are still buggering things up. Rick Jones might have been able to talk the Hulk down; he certainly made him pause in his rampage, but Strange had to use the oppurtunity to use his voodoo which made things worse. Again.

[TheDarkling]

As opposed to Tony Stark who was a founding
member?

Yes and by his own admission the Avengers was a rather sick beast until they pulled a certain somebody out of the ice and let him call the shots.

It is clear which team has more continuity with the pre civil war incarnation.

The New avengers have Cage, Spiderman, Logan and Spiderwoman whilst the mighty have Stark and what amounts to a reserve member in the Sentry.

As for previous notable members you can add in Wasp for the Mighty and Hawkeye for the New.

Cage said it best, they are Avengers because Cap said they were Avengers, I wouldn't trust Stark to make a pronouncement on whether water was wet let alone pick up the mantle of the Avengers.

The Avengers don't skulk in the dark.

Ideally no, but then again ideally they wouldn't be taking their orders from the US government which just recently committed genocide on the Inhumans, looks like it is going to do the same to Atlantis and threatened Wakanda with war, let alone their more egregious domestic errors.

The new Avengers are doing what they think is right not what their government paymasters demand, that makes the New Avengers far more worthy of the title.

The mighty Avengers are just the thunderbolts form the right side of the tracks (mostly at any rate).

[Jason]

I read WWH2 and X-Men and must say I'm finding the Hulk less and less sympathetic overall. In WWH2 he took a shot at his cousin who attempted to talk him down and offer a route which would eliminate the collateral damage and deaths. Then, in X-Men, he's going after a man who didn't have anything to do with what happened to him, on the grounds that he wants to know IF Xavier had been there how he would have voted, then decides he should toss him in a cell after Xavier gives him his answer. Oh, and he's tossing around the X-Men, who are fighting to prevent this obvious travesty of justice.

To be fair, we do see why he attacked Amadeus Cho in Incredible Hulk 107, as he dropped in on them directly after Strange messed with his mind.

Also, I don't care what he does to Reed. He has a legitimate gripe with Richards, along with Black Bolt, Stark, and Strange. Of course, they are not without blame for how they are handling this either. They knew what was coming, and could have gone and offered themselves for trial or something along those lines at the beginning, but they didn't.

There is plenty of blame to go around, to be sure.

[TheDarkling]

I read WWH2 and X-Men and must say I'm finding the Hulk less and less sympathetic overall. In WWH2 he took a shot at his cousin who attempted to talk him down and offer a route which would eliminate the collateral damage and deaths.

If I was the Hulk I wouldn't trust the human justice system to render the correct verdict.

He told her to get out of his way and she wouldn't.

Frankly I don't like Jen all that much anyway.

It is OK to exile people to another dimension for not registering but suddenly when it is her cousin being given the boot it is out of line? hypocrisy at its worst.

Then, in X-Men, he's going after a man who didn't have anything to do with what happened to him, on the grounds that he wants to know IF Xavier had been there how he would have voted, then decides he should toss him in a cell after Xavier gives him his answer. Oh, and he's tossing around the X-Men, who are fighting to prevent this obvious travesty of justice.

He is out of line here, I agree.

Xavier comes out quite well, showing the courage to admit to his mistakes and accept responsibility for them.

It is an interesting contrast to Stark's speech about him taking the blame where his solution wasn't to turn himself over, or even to admit what he did was wrong, but instead to try and kill the Hulk.

Xavier's stock went up a few points whilst Stark and Reed looked rather sad by comparison (Strange stilll has a chance to atone for his misdeeds).

Also, I don't care what he does to Reed. He has a legitimate gripe with Richards, along with Black Bolt, Stark, and Strange. Of course, they are not without blame for how they are handling this either. They knew what was coming, and could have gone and offered themselves for trial or something along those lines at the beginning, but they didn't.

There is plenty of blame to go around, to be sure.

Yeah their first solution was to attempt to manipulate a mental basket case into fighting their battle for them and after that didn't work Stark tried to kill Hulk and after that didn't work Reed tried to use the Hulk's friendship with another against him.

On top of that Strange used the Hulk's own humanity against him (or tried to).

The Hulk is still coming off a lot better than the Illuminati in my opinion.

[Jason]

I agree with a lot of what you say Darkling. However, I view the route of violence as a last resort. I don't know if you're reading the "Frontline" series, but it seems to be that cooperation and understanding COULD have been fostered by the Hulk between his people and humanity, and all this warfare could have been avoided had he given it a try. If he's the good and just leader of his people he'd have AT LEAST given it a chance to succeed or fail BEFORE running in and threatening to smash the entire planet. Instead, he takes the warlord route, making him a common thug IMO.

Right now, I'm leaning towards wanting Thor to show up and turn the lot of this group (Hulk and Illuminati) into ash.

[TheDarkling]

I agree with a lot of what you say Darkling. However, I view the route of violence as a last resort. I don't know if you're reading the "Frontline" series, but it seems to be that cooperation and understanding COULD have been fostered by the Hulk between his people and humanity, and all this warfare could have been avoided had he given it a try. If he's the good and just leader of his people he'd have AT LEAST given it a chance to succeed or fail BEFORE running in and threatening to smash the entire planet. Instead, he takes the warlord route, making him a common thug IMO.

No he didn't, he didn't show up and start throwing punches.

He gave them time to evacuate the area, a clear demonstration of a desire to prevent causalities.

He also made it clear that if that the three people he wanted were handed over there would be no smashing.

He gave everybody a peaceful road out but nobody (but Xavier) took it.

You have to look at it from Hulk's perspective, a million of his subjects (including his pregnant wife) were killed and his kingdom ruined, I think he showed remarkable restraint given the circumstances.

Right now, I'm leaning towards wanting Thor to show up and turn the lot of this group (Hulk and Illuminati) into ash.

Ah but that would be giving the Skrulls an easy victory.

[Jason]

I'd put threatening to do to millions of innocent people what was done to him (by destroying NY and then the rest of the world), along with the Hulk's sick display in the X-Men comic, under the category of thuggishness. Thugs threaten, people interested in minimizing death and destruction do not.

You are correct that Strange, Stark, and Richards could have ended this despite the Hulk taking the wrong route by simply coming forward. They also bear responsibility for what is going on, I'd say moreso since they started all this and indirectly killed all those people on Sakaar. Their actions are only compounding the violence.

It is also ironic, in a way, that the one person the Hulk went after that he had no business going after, Xavier, is also the one who willingly gave himself over.

[TheDarkling]

I'd put threatening to do to millions of innocent people what was done to him (by destroying NY and then the rest of the world), along with the Hulk's sick display in the X-Men comic, under the category of thuggishness. Thugs threaten, people interested in minimizing death and destruction do not.

People interested in minimising death and destruction give time for an evacuation.

You are going to have to explain why he gave that time if he didn't care about them getting smashed.

You also need to separate rhetoric from his actions, we have yet to see mass retaliation against the human population for the murder of ARCH-E and he has given people ample opportunity to avoid violence and injury.

He isn't acting like it is high tea with the Queen but that is a long way from saying he doesn't care about civilian casualties (or even those opposing him who aren't on his list).

[Jason]

OK I'm going to concede I've gone a bit overboard. There are degrees of thugs, the Hulk is so far on a moderate level IMO relative to what he could have done. Still a thug, but clearly not the worst one he could be.

Basically I'm not liking either side that much right now.

[Lonestar]

Yes and by his own admission the Avengers was a rather sick beast until they pulled a certain somebody out of the ice and let him call the shots.

Which has not stopped him from pulling rank as the Senior on several occassions.

It is clear which team has more continuity with the pre civil war incarnation.

Hmmm...the one with Iron Man, Ms. Marvel, Black Widow, Wasp, and Wonder Man?

The New avengers have Cage, Spiderman, Logan and Spiderwoman whilst the mighty have Stark and what amounts to a reserve member in the Sentry.

I would not describe any of the 4 you mentioned as a notable Avenger.

As for previous notable members you can add in Wasp for the Mighty and Hawkeye for the New.

What are Iron Man, Ms. Marvel, Black Widow, and Wonder Man? Chopped liver?

Cage said it best, they are Avengers because Cap said they were Avengers, I wouldn't trust Stark to make a pronouncement on whether water was wet let alone pick up the mantle of the Avengers.

I wouldn't trust Cap either. By any defination he should be working for the Government, the very one that he voluntered to be worked on.

Ideally no, but then again ideally they wouldn't be taking their orders from the US government which just recently committed genocide on the Inhumans,

You mean confiscating the Terrigen crystals? Boo-hoo. I'm failing to muster tears over that.

looks like it is going to do the same to Atlantis

The US Government has institued a policy of Genocide against the Atlantians?

and threatened Wakanda with war, let alone their more egregious domestic errors.

Which "egregious domestic errors"?

The new Avengers are doing what they think is right not what their government paymasters demand, that makes the New Avengers far more worthy of the title.

And the Mighty Avengers(all of them except Ares, in fact) aren't doing what they think is right? Were they not on the pro-registration side?

The mighty Avengers are just the thunderbolts form the right side of the tracks (mostly at any rate).

Yeah, the Mighty Avengers is just riddled with mass murderering lunatics like Bullseye and GG.

No, wait, I'm thinking of Wolverine. Sorry.

[lance]

Ooooh, Juggernaut? Was this the pussified excalibur version that's gone all weedy, or the proper "you can't stop me even if you flay me down to my skeleton" Juggernaut?

It was the Pussified Excalibur version with a power-up to full power (He swore "Blood And souls to my Lord Cytorrak!".).

Actually it was still the pussified version, He asked to get transport, not a power boost, and transport is what he got.

[lance]

Ideally no, but then again ideally they wouldn't be taking their orders from the US government which just recently committed genocide on the Inhumans,

You mean confiscating the Terrigen crystals? Boo-hoo. I'm failing to muster tears over that.

He probably means the
. use of a nuclear suicide bomber on Atilan

and threatened Wakanda with war, let alone their more egregious domestic errors.

Which "egregious domestic errors"?[/quote]
I think he means the sentinels, or when the Red Skull was secretary of defense, or the thing with the Initiates with the whole nothing happened when a trainee was killed.

[TheDarkling]

Hmmm...the one with Iron Man, Ms. Marvel, Black Widow, Wasp, and Wonder Man?

Only Ironman out of those was in the Avengers pre civil war, the rest pre date dissembled.

I would not describe any of the 4 you mentioned as a notable Avenger.

I wouldn't describe them as flower people either.

On a relevant note they were from the pre civil war group as I stated.

What are Iron Man, Ms. Marvel, Black Widow, and Wonder Man? Chopped liver?

Not from the pre civil war Avengers is what they are (with the exception of the Tin man).

I wouldn't trust Cap either. By any defination he should be working for the Government, the very one that he voluntered to be worked on.

The government released him from his obligation after he quit (when it was revealed the government was infiltrated by villains) and they eventually released that Captain America is Steve Rogers (good job really consider that same government had Red Skull as SecDef a few years later, it would have been unwise to have have the heroes taking orders from a villain in disguise).

In any case I think almost dying in service and spending decades trapped in ice is far beyond what his government could expect from him.

You mean confiscating the Terrigen crystals? Boo-hoo. I'm failing to muster tears over that.

No, I mean sending a suicide bomber into the Inhuman city and having the suicide bomber explode and kill most of the Inhumans.

Of course it is Blackbolts fault because he showed mercy to an enemy that isn't capable of it.

As for stealing the crystals, it was an evil act in and of itself but since you fail to see that perhaps are frame of reference is too dissimilar.

Experimenting on POWs was out of line as well.

The US Government has institued a policy of Genocide against the Atlantians?

The current Namor series has the US government at the brink of war with Atlantis and it also shows a point of time a few days into the future where Atlantis is destroyed and Namor dead.

So as I said "looks like it is going to do the same to Atlantis"

Which "egregious domestic errors"?

Deputising serial killers, locking up heroes in another dimension without trial, covering up the deaths of children, conscripting minors into an army, robbing people of their powers without lawful process, covering up the fact that Stark killed a plane full of people, having the Red Skull as security of defence, turning US marines into suicide bombers etc.

Basically they have the highlights reel of your average African warlord with a few comic book elements thrown in for good measure.

And the Mighty Avengers(all of them except Ares, in fact) aren't doing what they think is right? Were they not on the pro-registration side?

Stark has to know the things he has done are evil even if he thinks they are justified, Ms Marvel has admitted she made a great deal of mistakes (and hypocritically has started violating the law despite his supposed stand for accountability), Simon and Jan I have no issue with (although Simon doesn't like being on the government's leash).

Ares just likes to hit people in exchange for tax payers money, Sentry is a head case and I not sure about the Black window but considering she has regularly killed people for her masters I don't think she has many problems with ethics.

Yeah, the Mighty Avengers is just riddled with mass murderering lunatics like Bullseye and GG.

Tony has a lot to answer for it that regard, however the basis of comparison was that they are just another team of government lackies, the only difference is that they aren't quite at ethically tainted (although there T-bolts I would put ahead of Stark in that regard).

No, wait, I'm thinking of Wolverine. Sorry.

Stark tried to start a war with Atlantis, he forced the Green Goblin to put Wonderman in hospital, he cloned Thor and is thus responsible for Goliath's death, he exiled the Hulk and thus has a million counts of negligent homicide to answer for, he has broken a mass murderer out of federal custody, locked people up without trial, made the New Thunderbolts possible and so on.

Ms Marvel took a stand for law and order (in the process hunting down Julia Carpenter) and forced the conscription of a minor.
She then turned around and violated a restraining order and kidnapped a child (to try and make up for her past transgressions).
Not to mention she has taken the tac that she wants to be famous and hired a PR agent.

She is a hypocrite too obsessed with her image.

The rest of them are just guilty by association for being pro-reg as well as participating in the battle against the Inhumans (except Sentry who had the good sense to realise who was in the right and thus remain apart from the battle).

Like I said, they are just a nicer version of the Thunderbotls, nothing more.

She Hulk was right when she compared Stark to Doom, the main difference is that Doom can actually be trusted to keep his word and is more competent as running a world he is in charge of.

[DPDarkPrimus]

I'd put threatening to do to millions of innocent people what was done to him (by destroying NY and then the rest of the world), along with the Hulk's sick display in the X-Men comic, under the category of thuggishness. Thugs threaten, people interested in minimizing death and destruction do not.

Hulk said he wanted to talk to Xavier, and the X-Men all attacked him.

Yeah, defending oneself sure is thuggish.

[Manus Celer Dei]

The US Government has institued a policy of Genocide against the Atlantians?

The current Namor series has the US government at the brink of war with Atlantis and it also shows a point of time a few days into the future where Atlantis is destroyed and Namor dead.

So as I said "looks like it is going to do the same to Atlantis"

Did you miss the bit where Iron Man was surveying the destroyed capital and basically saying "What the fuck could possibly have done this to Atlantis?"

Him and SHIELD don't know, so I'd bet that what happened to Atlantis wasn't done by the US.

[TheDarkling]

Did you miss the bit where Iron Man was surveying the destroyed capital and basically saying "What the fuck could possibly have done this to Atlantis?"

Him and SHIELD don't know, so I'd bet that what happened to Atlantis wasn't done by the US.

Does Tony know that they are sending one of their pet serial killers after Namor?

The US government is quite capable of going around Stark and since Stark must get called off Atlantis at some point (since his armada has been removed in the flash forward) it stands to reason that the US government calls him off.

Only Stark's hubris convinced him he could control the situation by going pro reg, he is their dog now and they decide the length of his leash.

With that said it seems likely there is more than meets the eye going on since I doubt Namor (and there are internal tensions) is dead but so far the US has said they wish to, at the very least, occupy Atlantis and are becoming increasingly impatient with Stark not getting on with the job.

[MadSorcerer]

Hulk said he wanted to talk to Xavier, and the X-Men all attacked him.

Yeah, defending oneself sure is thuggish.

Hulk attacked first.