Question about the IR

[VT-16]

It's just a tiny blurb on Rebel Raiders that's basically "here's how you modify this Rebel scenario so you can use the Viscount".

The New Republic: If you want to use the Mon Calamari Viscount, set the scenario a few years in the future. The New Republic is securing control over the galaxy, attacking remaining Imperial warlords and remnants.

This basically fits in with the last two years of the war, since the Viscount-class wasn't designed until after the BFC in 17 ABY, and after the end of the war, the NR allowed Imperial-loyal systems in the Republic to decide which side they wanted to join.

[Chris OFarrell]

And on the NR not being able to counter ISD's easily, the fact is that the NR did have big warships capable of laying into ISD's easily enough, the MC-90's for example have enough shielding to withstand quite a poudning at the hands of an SSD and a fleet of VSD's, while giving back enough firepower to take out quite a few of said VSD's (Darksabre).

I'm also convinced that Mon Remonda was an early prototype MC-90, there is simply no way its an MC-80 variant given that its described as being *quite a bit* more powerful then another MC-80 in one of the books, as well as being quite larger (and has enough shielding to go broadside with an SSD and survive one pass.

So the New Republic DID have some heavy hitting warships, the New Class non withstanding. Its just that they were probably spread out quite a bit.

They then got the various heavier starships during the Vong War, even if the writers consistently underrated just what kind of production the SW Galaxy should be able to put out on a war footing.

[PainRack]

This campaign came after enough New Class warships were added to establish an entirely new numbered fleet (50rS). However, as The Essential Chronology points out, it was a severe and decisive defeat ("the New Republic's enemies were in retreat, their navies spent"). As a result, the Supreme Commander New Republic Defense Force "took advantage of the temporary respite to order most warships into dry dock for repairs and upgrades," and "those fleet vessels not affected by the recall were put to work patrolling the borders of the Empire and the Deep Core." The NRDF was thus inadequately prepared to deal with an internal crisis such as the Starbuster Plot of 53rS.

Thanks Publius.

And on the NR not being able to counter ISD's easily, the fact is that the NR did have big warships capable of laying into ISD's easily enough, the MC-90's for example have enough shielding to withstand quite a poudning at the hands of an SSD and a fleet of VSD's, while giving back enough firepower to take out quite a few of said VSD's (Darksabre).

My personal belief is that all this talk about ISDs being the largest combat warship other than the SSD, and the NR not having ships big enough to take on ISDs refers to "standard" warships. Mass produced warships like the MC-80s and ISDs are probably more common and represent the main strength of the two power navies. However, one off warships with limited production runs could easily happen, whether purchased by territorial powers or the central navies of either side.

So, ISDs are the "biggest" spammable warships the Imps have, and larger ships are simply one off production runs. And as you said, the NR simply don't have significant numbers of warships that could take on the ISD.

[Warsie]

The Imperial Remnant never lost the ability to "win" against the new Republic. If Pellaeon didn't interfere with Thrawn and the other things the NR could've self-destructed and the Remnant would look viable.

EDIT: As well as the NR being demilaritized somewhat people forgot that the limited fleets could be referring to the CENTRALIZED New Republic Fleet, few ships likely were under federal jurisdiction, the NR was a confederacy and as such most fleets would be under sector or other lower authorities.

[Alexian Cale]

Your going to start a whole new thread with THAT comment, suffice to say some people here hate Pellaeon for his taking command of the fleet at Endor after the DS2 destruction, illegaly, and ordering a retreat.

I've read some of the threads pertaining to the issue, but from the source material, Admiral Pellaeon seems far too loyal to the Empire to ever assume a position of authority that wasn't rightfully his, so perhaps his illegal retreat is some sort of inconsistency? Or was it confirmed prior to Heir to the Empire that there were Grand Admirals present at Endor? Because it seems that every EU author has a new perspective to add to the aftermath of the Battle of Endor.

Its the subject of a lot of flaming on this board.

I saw that, which is a shame. Pellaeon is a gift of a character.

The Imperial Remnant never lost the ability to "win" against the new Republic.

From a military perspective, it seemed that they did. The explanations offered here seem to be adequete, it would make sense given the sheer size and infrastructure of the New Republic, that the Imperial Remnant couldn't hope to amass a military victory at that point.

If Pellaeon didn't interfere with Thrawn and the other things the NR could've self-destructed and the Remnant would look viable.

I don't recall where Pellaeon interfered with Thrawn, though. You might be referring to Grodin Tierce - a "clone" of Thrawn's from a perspective. Tierce was tainted at best; he had bits of the Grand Admiral's legendary tactical ability, but he seemed to have an even greater depth of megalomania. He was certainly unstable.

[Warsie]

I was referring to the Camaas incident and the Thrawn fake,known as film. Sorry about the mixup

And Alexian Cale, the Imperial Remnant could've won if the New Republic entered a civil war as Disra planned to do instead of the pace treaty Pellaeon made.

[Alexian Cale]

And Alexian Cale, the Imperial Remnant could've won if the New Republic entered a civil war as Disra planned to do instead of the pace treaty Pellaeon made.

Potentially. But at what cost? And didn't Disra's plan collapse around his ears, anyways?

[xerex]

I was referring to the Camaas incident and the Thrawn fake,known as film. Sorry about the mixup

And Alexian Cale, the Imperial Remnant could've won if the New Republic entered a civil war as Disra planned to do instead of the pace treaty Pellaeon made.

ssssssss.


temp victory at best.........then the NR would have ground the empire into the dust......think Germany vs Russia and Japan vs USA in WW2. The difference in resources is simply too great.

and hadnt Disra's plan failed already anyway ?

[Alexian Cale]

Germany vs. Russia?

That's not necessarily a proper analogy, Xerex, because Nazi Germany would have manhandled the Soviets individually. The problem was that Hitler was outnumbered and losing one front, so instead of fighting back, he decided to attack the Soviets - whom he had a non-aggression pact with - in a desperate attempt to conquer more territory. An even bigger mistake, especially with the Russian winter kicking in.

But the fact that the Nazis managed to kick Soviet ass across Russia despite being ill-prepared and outnumbered is evidence alone of how superior German training was.

If I'm not mistaken, individually, Nazi Germany had the most powerful military machine in the world at that time.

But that's for a different thread. :p

[TC Pilot]

I've read some of the threads pertaining to the issue, but from the source material, Admiral Pellaeon seems far too loyal to the Empire to ever assume a position of authority that wasn't rightfully his, so perhaps his illegal retreat is some sort of inconsistency?

It's entirely canonical that Pellaeon vastly overstepped his authority as acting-captain in ordering the retreat.

Or was it confirmed prior to Heir to the Empire that there were Grand Admirals present at Endor?

There was at least three, and one of which whom Pellaeon outright abandoned (Teshik).

Because it seems that every EU author has a new perspective to add to the aftermath of the Battle of Endor.

Zahn is not a particularly recent addition to that list.

[Anguirus]

There was at least three, and one of which whom Pellaeon outright abandoned (Teshik).

The question asked was whether their presence was confirmed prior to Pellaeon's introduction and account of Endor in HttE.

[Publius]

I've read some of the threads pertaining to the issue, but from the source material, Admiral Pellaeon seems far too loyal to the Empire to ever assume a position of authority that wasn't rightfully his, so perhaps his illegal retreat is some sort of inconsistency? Or was it confirmed prior to Heir to the Empire that there were Grand Admirals present at Endor? Because it seems that every EU author has a new perspective to add to the aftermath of the Battle of Endor.

What has loyalty to the state got to do with usurpation of authority? Francisco Franco was (in his view) loyal to Spain, but that did not stop him from usurping authority as Chief of State in 1936 (simultaneously a coup d'état against both his Republican enemies and his own Nationalist allies, seeing that the Junta de Defensa Nacional had only agreed to appoint him head of government). One need look no further than the names used by many putschists for their subsequent regimes ("National Reorganization Process," "Party of the Arab Socialist Resurrection," &c.). The fact that he did assume a position of authority not rightfully his is prima facie evidence that being "far too loyal to the Empire" has nothing at all to do with the matter.

Gilad Pellaeon has a documented history of ordering withdrawals at the earliest opportunity (Heir to the Empire, The Last Command, Darksaber), even going so far as to abandon an entire army on the surface and to disobey direct orders from a superior officer ("Bloodlines"). Whatever his merits as an administrator or as a strategist, he has consistently demonstrated that he is a mediocre tactician with no stomach for fighting. It is presumably this very characteristic that resulted in his apparent blacklisting for more than twenty years (a courtesy commodore in "Bloodlines" in 14rS, he had been reduced to XO of a mere capital ship at Endor in 39rS).

Even the internal evidence of the original Thrawn trilogy supports the idea of Pellaeon's lack of qualification for command; in Heir to the Empire it is said that he assumed command of Chimaera when her CO was killed, and that six Star Destroyers were "lost" at Endor. Return of the Jedi shows an Imperial fleet of more than twenty Star Destroyers; is one really expected to believe that every flag and broad-pennant had been shot down in those six Star Destroyers? Or is one to believe that the Imperial Starfleet has more rudimentary command and control than the Royal Navy of Cape St. Vincent and Trafalgar in the late 18th and early 19th century? Is one really expected to believe that a superannuated has-been who didn't even merit the courtesy of a yellowing was next in line to command of a fleet of ships, when he wasn't even considered worthy of commanding even one such ship?

[TC Pilot]

There was at least three, and one of which whom Pellaeon outright abandoned (Teshik).

The question asked was whether their presence was confirmed prior to Pellaeon's introduction and account of Endor in HttE.

Ah, well, in that case no, considering the rank was not actually created until HttE.

[Anguirus]

Publius, good accounting of Pellaeon's flaws, but I have one minor nitpick; by my reading of HttE the number of Star Destroyers lost in total was never placed at six. Rather, Thrawn observes that after the Emperor's death six Star Destroyers were lost in engagements that, in his view, they should not have had trouble with.

I think the point being raised here by Alexian Cale is that, while the canon as it stands indicates that Pellaeon is both gutless and guilty of completely subverting the chain of command, it is not likely that Zahn's intent was to portray him as a complete tool. The very fact that Thrawn selected him as his protege, knowing as he did the facts of the battle, argues against this.

Whether or not this is true, as things stand now Pellaeon is the General McClellan of the Star Wars universe, except without the ego and with rather more common sense and statesmanship.

[Publius]

Incidentally, why is it universally assumed that Pellaeon was Thrawn's protégé? He was merely the flag captain, and perhaps captain of the fleet. With a career of fifty years in the fleet, Pellaeon is far too old to be a protégé, and is certainly never seen to behave as though he were in a mentoring relationship (which is actually a semi-formalized relationship in the navy). If a man of his age and experience actually requires a mentor, what does that say of his competence?

[Chris OFarrell]

I was referring to the Camaas incident and the Thrawn fake,known as film. Sorry about the mixup

And Alexian Cale, the Imperial Remnant could've won if the New Republic entered a civil war as Disra planned to do instead of the pace treaty Pellaeon made.

I find it highly unlikely.

The New Republic was far bigger then the various races involved in the Camaas crisis and frankly Tierce himself said that simply tearing down the New Republic wouldn't bring back the Empire. Flim wouldn't be able to keep the act up forever, especially when the Empire of the Hand made real contact and found out he was a fake.

Beyond that, as the Gavrisom himself showed he was perfectly willing to use the IR as the 'boogyman' and go for a full scale war of extermination against them, the common enemy to unite the Republic. After the whole Camaas crisis fell appart so spectacularly over Bothawui (which was inevitable regardless of it Karrde and Pellaeon exposed Flim) the entire damn Galaxy would have been out howling for blood.

The Imperial Remnant was outgunned by an absurd amount by this time, the only possible outcome would have been a curb stomp ending with the New Republic army hoisting its flag on Bastion.

[Alexian Cale]

Publius, good accounting of Pellaeon's flaws, but I have one minor nitpick; by my reading of HttE the number of Star Destroyers lost in total was never placed at six. Rather, Thrawn observes that after the Emperor's death six Star Destroyers were lost in engagements that, in his view, they should not have had trouble with.

I think the point being raised here by Alexian Cale is that, while the canon as it stands indicates that Pellaeon is both gutless and guilty of completely subverting the chain of command, it is not likely that Zahn's intent was to portray him as a complete tool. The very fact that Thrawn selected him as his protege, knowing as he did the facts of the battle, argues against this.

Whether or not this is true, as things stand now Pellaeon is the General McClellan of the Star Wars universe, except without the ego and with rather more common sense and statesmanship.

Thanks. A much better-worded account of my point.

Edit: Can I assume from this, Publius, that you aren't a fan of Pellaeon?

[Warsie]

ssssssss.


temp victory at best.........then the NR would have ground the empire into the dust......think Germany vs Russia and Japan vs USA in WW2. The difference in resources is simply too great.

and hadnt Disra's plan failed already anyway ?

1. the NR could not grind the Empire if the Empire didn't do anything, or could appear innocent. Even if they were suspicious and sure about it, the NR could not do a first strike.

2. the various races (And sector/local fleets) would be in fratricidal warfare and the NR federal fleets would be busy trying to maintain some semblanceof order.

The New Republic was far bigger then the various races involved in the Camaas crisis and frankly Tierce himself said that simply tearing down the New Republic wouldn't bring back the Empire.

The Caamas crisis was tearing the NR apart. Even those who were not involved in the original incident became polarized and debated, argued and tensions flared over this. Remember how Corellia andMon Calamari became involved in that, but neither had anything to do with Caamas.

And the Empire was shown again as a stable beacon of order among the chaos that was forming, and as a result many rejoined the Empire.

Flim wouldn't be able to keep the act up forever, especially when the Empire of the Hand made real contact and found out he was a fake.

There was a Clone Thrawn that was supposed to hatch in a few days anyway.

Beyond that, as the Gavrisom himself showed he was perfectly willing to use the IR as the 'boogyman' and go for a full scale war of extermination against them, the common enemy to unite the Republic.

That was because the ISDs were going to attack Bothawui, however. And people were arguing over that too, remember the Dialala-Ishori argument over the fake Thrawn?

After the whole Camaas crisis fell appart so spectacularly over Bothawui (which was inevitable regardless of it Karrde and Pellaeon exposed Flim) the entire damn Galaxy would have been out howling for blood.

The Imperial Remnant was outgunned by an absurd amount by this time, the only possible outcome would have been a curb stomp ending with the New Republic army hoisting its flag on Bastion.

Leia and other senators mentioned that the NR fleets are scattered across the Galaxy due to patrol and "trouble" zones and any such extermination would be difficult, at best.

And there's the possibility of the Hand of Thrawn assisting.

EDIT: not to mention how the fake Thrawn was still scaring the Galaxy; how some senators said that Thrawn would expect the NR to do the final removal campaign and assumed he had a counter,and the Errant Venture being held hostage, with Bel Iblis and such as a hostage.

The IR has a propaganda value there. Possible explanations, etc. "They attacked us first" so we sent the ISDs to Bothawui (assuming they would have to explain that) or othwrnice arguments.

EDIT 2: and the IR's argument that it wasn't Imperial warships; there's sufficent NR-captured ISDs that could be used in a false-flag operation

Potentially. But at what cost?

intell and black ops losses?

And didn't Disra's plan collapse around his ears, anyways?

Pellaeon ratted out Film, that's why.

[Chris OFarrell]

The New Republic was far bigger then the various races involved in the Camaas crisis and frankly Tierce himself said that simply tearing down the New Republic wouldn't bring back the Empire.

The Caamas crisis was tearing the NR apart. Even those who were not involved in the original incident became polarized and debated, argued and tensions flared over this. Remember how Corellia andMon Calamari became involved in that, but neither had anything to do with Caamas.

To an extent. But mostly it was just various races using it as an excuse to settle old scores, Caamas was irrelevant to that for the most part. Most of the New Republic were sitting out of the whole damn issue, you only had a hundred warships from a hundred or so planets sitting over Caamas and there is little evidence that all of them were there on direct orders of their Governmnets, though some clearly were.

The New Republic was not going to 'tear itself apart', especialy if a sudden unifying external threat suddenly appeared, like the Empire, to direct firepower against.

IF the New Republic was ready to tear itself apart, then frankly it wouldn't have made a difference if they had gotten the Caamas document back and put the still alive Bothans on trial. By your logic, they should have kept on going regardless and torn the NR apart, instead they all stood down and went back home, after joining together to beat the shit out of the ISD's that suddenly showed up, after trying to kill each other.

And the Empire was shown again as a stable beacon of order among the chaos that was forming, and as a result many rejoined the Empire.

That sounds suspiciously like your unsupported opinion, I'd LOVE to hear where 'many' rejoined the Empire, as there is no indication that the Empire increased in size in any way post peace treaty. Pelleaon and Leia both apper to think that it would be something of a balanced exchange with some worlds wanting to join the other Government.

Flim wouldn't be able to keep the act up forever, especially when the Empire of the Hand made real contact and found out he was a fake.

There was a Clone Thrawn that was supposed to hatch in a few days anyway.

Except it DIDN'T. It was killed remember? This isn't a what if, this is you claiming that if only Pealleon didn't back down everything would have magically gone back to being the Empire reborn! Or some nonsense.

And there is no indication that Thrawn would particularly WANT to join up with the Empire, his people clearly didn't think it was anything but a certainty as the Imperial Remnent in their opinion was utterly a 'non entity' in terms of power. Its just as likely that Thrawn would have given the NR his copy of the document after denouncing Flim and worked for a peace that would let him start getting ready for the comming storm.

Beyond that, as the Gavrisom himself showed he was perfectly willing to use the IR as the 'boogyman' and go for a full scale war of extermination against them, the common enemy to unite the Republic.

That was because the ISDs were going to attack Bothawui, however.

[/quote]



No it wasn't, it was Gavrisom thinking out loud to Leia about how to keep the New Republic members from shooting at each other, he was hoping that the peace offer would be bogus so he could use the Emprie as a unifying target for everyone to take out their testosterone on. He didn't have any idea about the ISD's waiting.

And frankly after the ISD's show themselves, it makes it just THAT much easier to rally an attack against the Empire.

And people were arguing over that too, remember the Dialala-Ishori argument over the fake Thrawn?

Yes an enormous Red Herring that Trice deliberately tried to push by having a Dialala senator with Lando when they brought him on board. It doesn't change the fact that if the President declared a Jhiad against the Empire, nationalizing most of these member fleets in the process, it would be done and it would provide a common enemy for everyone to go to work on.

After the whole Camaas crisis fell appart so spectacularly over Bothawui (which was inevitable regardless of it Karrde and Pellaeon exposed Flim) the entire damn Galaxy would have been out howling for blood.

The Imperial Remnant was outgunned by an absurd amount by this time, the only possible outcome would have been a curb stomp ending with the New Republic army hoisting its flag on Bastion.

Leia and other senators mentioned that the NR fleets are scattered across the Galaxy due to patrol and "trouble" zones and any such extermination would be difficult, at best.

Are you not listing to ANYTHING? The whole point was that if you get all those species causing trouble and send everyone to fight the Empire instead of each other, they won't be causing trouble in the first place! Thats the WHOLE POINT. The Empire only had a couple of hundred ISD's with probably only a few thousand lesser ships, they simply can't put up a credible defense.

And there's the possibility of the Hand of Thrawn assisting.

No, there is no possibility of the Hand of THrawn assisting. Not that they have anything to assist with save a small number of fighters and a few ground troops.

EDIT: not to mention how the fake Thrawn was still scaring the Galaxy; how some senators said that Thrawn would expect the NR to do the final removal campaign and assumed he had a counter,and the Errant Venture being held hostage, with Bel Iblis and such as a hostage.

Picking apart this rant as best I can...

You had ONE senator whining that Thrawn was the uber God and he was too scared to do anything. The rest then correctly pointed out that Thrawn before was working with a large resource base previously and that with only the pathetic number of ships and planets they have now, he is not a threat.

And they all then started calling for a full scale attack at this point, before the President told them this wasn't the issue, then the whole thing got sidetracked into a debate on the Bothan situation. Again.

And Bel Iblis wasn't going to be held hostage. If you had read the book you would realize he was going to give his assault teams cover my disabiling enough of the Tractors to get loose, then point the Venture right at the Relentless and take BOTH of them out by ramming it.

If anything, such a heroic death would inspire the New Republic to avenge him in an orgy of destruction against the Empire that would erase it from the history books.

The IR has a propaganda value there. Possible explanations, etc. "They attacked us first" so we sent the ISDs to Bothawui (assuming they would have to explain that) or othwrnice arguments.

....right.

"They attacked us, so we sent three cloaked ISD's to the Bothawui system which traveled from Imperial Space to deep inside the New Republic in about sixty seconds, then de-cloaked and opened fire at every ship in orbit because we really really feel like we had to defend ourselves!"


The Empire lost. Get OVER it already. Even IF the New Republic imploded, the various post New Republic alliances that are going to spring up, probably up and down the lines on the Bothan issues, would chew up and spit out the Empire if it tried to then declare itself back. Even at the height of the frigen Vong war, Fell commented that the Empire didn't stand a chance against the New Republic, even if it doubled its size by taking former and unprotected New Republic worlds when the NR was at its weakest.

EDIT 2: and the IR's argument that it wasn't Imperial warships; there's sufficent NR-captured ISDs that could be used in a false-flag operation

And all the New Republic has to do is present the proof that every single one of its ISD's is accounted for. The whole fucking POINT of using the Venture WAS that the NR's ISD's are all high profile ships and people would notice VERY quickly that they were not where they were supposed to be.

Let alone what you could see from the wreckage of the three ships which will probably offer up a wealth of forensic information.

[Warsie]

Chris O Farrell, ahh i read your argument. I wanted to form you that that was read.