Rebels: Terrorists or Freedom Fighters (Battle of Endor too)

[Connor MacLeod]

I'll maybe touch on some of the other tidbits later if I have time, but I just wanted to point out something regarding the Radio drama tidbit. It DOES indeed sound as if Tarkin believes he has a "free hand" in the matter, but this may not neccesarily be the same thing as "legality" - Palpatine has alot of control/influence in the Empire, but at this point, he's not the totalitarian dictator he's often portrayed as (If he was, what point the Death Star?)

Vader's comments are worth consideration as well. He clearly does not seem to think that Tarkin's actions would meet with the Emperor's approval - after all, wasn't Vader there to act as a restraint on Tarkin should he get ideas?

Given that, and given what we know of Palpatine (and the fact Tarkin IS acting outside his jurisdiction, that IS a good point) I'd imagine that Palpy is probably using Tarkin to cover his own ass. If Tarkin's actions succeed and the Death Star works as he promises, Palpy can always retroactively approve them with his newfound authority. If Tarkin fails, Palpatine can deny it all and cast Tarkin as a renegade.

I suppose what it comes down to is whether Tarkin's "authority" is official or whether its just Palpy promising his support to any of Tarkin's actions.

[Surlethe]

I suppose what it comes down to is whether Tarkin's "authority" is official or whether its just Palpy promising his support to any of Tarkin's actions.

If Tarkin's plan to destroy the fourth moon of Yavin had been carried out, would there have been any significant distinction between these two options?

[TC Pilot]

Didn't Palpatine give Tarkin permission to destroy a Rebel World, when he showed the plans of the Death Star to Palpatine or some other times?

Precisely.

But yeah the Alliance fleet at Endor was small...though that was only the central Rebel Alliance. There were many rebel cells and friendly governments still out there.

Sorry, but both the ROTJ novelization and TIE Fighter clearly state the entirety of the Rebellion's naval forces were at Endor. “Every
Rebel in the galaxy, soldier and civilian alike" indeed.

Even if it were only a significant percentage, it's still exponentially inferior to the support the Empire enjoys.

However, very few, if any, were in a position of power high enough to mitigate the negative aspects of Imperial domination beyond their localized spheres of influence, if those.

How exactly were the Ruling Council the mass-murdering psychopaths you describe?

I find it rather distressing that you would even suggest that there were no "morally questionable" officials within the Empire.

You have to prove that there were, and that they formed both a majority of the Imperial political and administrative structure. Simply saying the Empire was run by blood-thirsty lunatics means nothing.

Dozens of species, from the Wookiees to the Mon Calamari to the Talz, were enslaved on the Outer Rim by local Moffs and governors.

Precisely. They were done without the approval of Imperial Center and were covered up to prevent legal repercutions. When it became clear the Barabels that were being hunted by Imperials, for example, the authorities stepped in and enforced the law.

Some more depraved officials even exterminated less technologically-advanced races en-mass.

And many people, such as Teren Rogriss, conducted state-sponsored humanitarian and civilizing expeditions, as well as ending the countless brush-fire wars that went unhindered under the Old Republic, like the Sepan Civil War in TIE Fighter.

corruptions were well-hidden from many of the largely human populations of the Core, Expansion, and Inner Rim territories, but that does not mean that they did not occur.

And this is entirely in line with my argument.

What is your proof of this?

The A New Hope novelization. The Emperor is described as a recluse.

Some would, certainly, blindly subservient to their wise and benevolent god-emperor, oblivious to the suffering subjugation of countless other worlds and species, absolutely subject to the faintest whims of Palpatine and his psychopathic commanders.

Perhaps you don't understand. The "luxury liner" worlds were the norm under the Empire.

I encounter civilians like you all the time. You believe the Empire is continually plotting to do harm. Let me tell you, your view of the Empire is far too dramatic. The Empire is a government. It keeps billions of beings fed and clothed. Day after day, year after year, on thousands of worlds people live their lives under Imperial rule without ever seeing a stormtrooper or hearing a TIE fighter scream overhead.

So long as one obeyed the law, one would expect to live in safety and prosperity.

You honestly think that he would have been satisfied to simply stop, if it was within his power to take more?

He was satisfied. His monolouge in the Return of the Jedi novelization shows so.

And so, because of a lack of an explicit statement otherwise (and I'm honestly not sure about the canonicity of the "Dark Empire") we are supposed to believe that all of Palpatine's decades of machinations, the murders he orchestrated, the species and worlds he destroyed, the lunatics he trained and unleashed unchecked against the galaxy, all of it was done to form a pure and just galactic government, designed for the betterment and security of its people? Even if Palpatine never conceived of becoming some sort of dark god, he was still a conquer, plain and simple, and a merciless one at that. It is not the nature of conquers to simply stop; they are stopped by something else, be it infirmity, rebellion, or divergent interest. Palpatine had the ability and by all indications the will to keep on conquering and dominating until there was no free sapient left within his power to reach.

The question at hand is not whether or not one should hug His Imperial Majesty, but the galaxy under His Imperial Majesty's rule. The galaxy ruled by the Empire was safe and prosperous, filled with happy, loyal citizens. unmolested by the illegal excesses of a few overzealous or corrupt officials.

If blowing up planets to instill fear wasn't a method endorsed by the Emperor, what's the point of the Death Star - especially its superlaser - in the first place?

We do not know what the Death Star could have been used for. To assume that the Death Star would be sent around blowing up planets by the Emperor because we do not know any other use for it is an argument fom ignornace.

The protestation makes clear only that Vader thinks Tarkin is beyond his authority;

And who do you think Vader is representative of onboard the Death Star?

the fact that the Emperor gave him a free hand in hunting down the rebels and did not remove him in the hours after he ordered Alderaan's destruction indicates that he was not, in fact, insubordinating against the Emperor's wishes.

Nonsense. One should not rationally expect the Emperor to have reacted to the destruction of Alderaan in the miniscule timeframe you've assigned.

[Surlethe]

The protestation makes clear only that Vader thinks Tarkin is beyond his authority;

And who do you think Vader is representative of onboard the Death Star?

Yes, indeed. Except isn't Vader "on Tarkin's leash"? If Vader is indeed the representative of the Emperor on board the Death Star, couldn't he have deposed Tarkin on the spot?

the fact that the Emperor gave him a free hand in hunting down the rebels and did not remove him in the hours after he ordered Alderaan's destruction indicates that he was not, in fact, insubordinating against the Emperor's wishes.

Nonsense. One should not rationally expect the Emperor to have reacted to the destruction of Alderaan in the miniscule timeframe you've assigned.

Why?

[TC Pilot]

Yes, indeed. Except isn't Vader "on Tarkin's leash"?

And doesn't Tarkin have a foul stench that emanates throughout the entire battlestation?

If Vader is indeed the representative of the Emperor on board the Death Star, couldn't he have deposed Tarkin on the spot?

Vader has never been one for vigilantism. Have you not seen Episode 3?

Why?

Because the destruction of a world on a galactic scale does not have the same impact it would from our own perspective. When his conversation with his family was abruptly cut short by the planet's destruction, Tycho Celchu merely assumed with was a Holonet malfunction. The Empire would most likely assume the same thing, and even if ships were sent to investigate, by the time Alderaan's destruction and the Death Star's role in it would be confirmed, Tarkin would well be on his way to oblivion.

[chitoryu12]

And doesn't Tarkin have a foul stench that emanates throughout the entire battlestation?

It's an insult. It's not supposed to be accurate.

Vader has never been one for vigilantism. Have you not seen Episode 3?

And in Episode 2, he defied his master's orders to rescue him, which only ended in him and his girlfriend getting captured. If Vader felt that taking over the Death Star was a better idea than letting Tarkin control it, he would probably do it.

[Dark Flame]

You have to prove that there were, and that they formed both a majority of the Imperial political and administrative structure. Simply saying the Empire was run by blood-thirsty lunatics means nothing.

Tarkin himself committed atrocities before destroying Alderaan. He committed the Ghorman Massacre with permission from Palpatine. And from looking on Wookiepedia it seems like this was not a single isolated incident.

Precisely. They were done without the approval of Imperial Center and were covered up to prevent legal repercutions. When it became clear the Barabels that were being hunted by Imperials, for example, the authorities stepped in and enforced the law.

Antislavery laws were repealed and legislation legalizing the persecution of aliens was passed.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Empire

We do not know what the Death Star could have been used for. To assume that the Death Star would be sent around blowing up planets by the Emperor because we do not know any other use for it is an argument fom ignornace.

Why else would they build a gigantic battle station with a planet killing superlaser ? What other purpose could there be for it? To assume that there is some unknown purpose is idiocy.

And who do you think Vader is representative of onboard the Death Star?

So if Vader is indeed Palpatine's representative, then why wouldn't he stop Tarkin from destroying Alderaan if it went against the Emperor's wishes? This shows that Tarkin had to have some sort of approval to do what he did.

Nonsense. One should not rationally expect the Emperor to have reacted to the destruction of Alderaan in the miniscule timeframe you've assigned.

Why not? They have faster than light communications, and the Force to communicate with. If it was so much against Palpatine's policy, he would have told Tarkin and had Vader enforce his will before they got to Yavin.

[Knife]

Because the destruction of a world on a galactic scale does not have the same impact it would from our own perspective. When his conversation with his family was abruptly cut short by the planet's destruction, Tycho Celchu merely assumed with was a Holonet malfunction. The Empire would most likely assume the same thing, and even if ships were sent to investigate, by the time Alderaan's destruction and the Death Star's role in it would be confirmed, Tarkin would well be on his way to oblivion.

Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but isn't the contention that the emperor that could predict and see the future and was more powerful in the force than either Yoda and (something terrible has happened) Kenobi, didn't or couldn't react to Tarkin destroying a world in any meaningful timeframe?

[Noble Ire]

How exactly were the Ruling Council the mass-murdering psychopaths you describe?

Several, including Sate Pestage, were chief facilitators of the anti-alien sentiment rampant throughout the empire, leading to widespread discrimination and the acceptance of slavery in many areas. Indeed, at least in part because of their efforts, several species, among them the Mon Calamari, were stripped of their status as fully self-sapient beings, more livestock than citizens in the Empire's eyes. Surely, this could not have occurred without their knowledge.

You have to prove that there were, and that they formed both a majority of the Imperial political and administrative structure. Simply saying the Empire was run by blood-thirsty lunatics means nothing.

Grand Moff Tarkin was a notorious mass-murder even before the Alderaan incident; he landed his transport on a crowd of protesting Imperial citizens on the planet Ghorman, killing hundreds of them instantly (and yet, he still was one of Palpatine's chief advisors up until his death). The planet Kashyyyk was occupied and enslaved with full Imperial knowledge. The peaceful planet of Camaas was obliterated under orders from the Imperial throne itself. The Imperial Citadel on Byss was constructed in large part by alien slave labor. On Imperial colony worlds like Teardrop, Fleet marines were directed to slaughter entire settlements suspected of sympathizing with the alliance, orders that came all the way from Coruscant. And yet, for all of this, not a single member of the Imperial leadership was a ruthless tyrant?

Precisely. They were done without the approval of Imperial Center and were covered up to prevent legal repercutions. When it became clear the Barabels that were being hunted by Imperials, for example, the authorities stepped in and enforced the law.

How could the enslavement of entire worlds, planets that were key members of the Old Republic and were along major galactic trade roots, be kept quiet for decades? Vader himself took part in the enslavement of Kashyyyk, under Palpatine's orders.

And many people, such as Teren Rogriss, conducted state-sponsored humanitarian and civilizing expeditions, as well as ending the countless brush-fire wars that went unhindered under the Old Republic, like the Sepan Civil War in TIE Fighter.

That's all well and good, but I fail to see how it makes up for the myriad of injustices that Palpatine condoned, ignored, and explicitly ordered.

The A New Hope novelization. The Emperor is described as a recluse.

Just because he was recluse does not mean that he was not in full control of his Empire. He stayed largely out of the public eye so he could maintain a veneer of benevolence, far from the barely covered-up atrocities committed in his name. Most Imperial citizens didn't even know he was a Force-user, much less a Sith Master.

Perhaps you don't understand. The "luxury liner" worlds were the norm under the Empire.

I know they were, for the mainly-human worlds that populated the inner part of the galaxy. Outside of that comfortable sphere, slavery, slaughter, and exploitation was rampant. Are you saying that the suffering of trillions is acceptable as long as the people of the core worlds of the Empire live in comfort?

So long as one obeyed the law, one would expect to live in safety and prosperity.

A law which included no rights to free speech, due process, assembly, or press. But those things aren't really that important, I suppose.

He was satisfied. His monolouge in the Return of the Jedi novelization shows so.

Could you provide a transcript or a page number? I don't recall that particular passage.

[Darth Ruinus]

Why else would they build a gigantic battle station with a planet killing superlaser ? What other purpose could there be for it? To assume that there is some unknown purpose is idiocy.

To scare people, much like how someone could buy a gun in self defense, and not intend to shot a robber, just scare him off. Anyone is going to think twice about messing with you if you have a massive gun pointed at them.

And who do you think Vader is representative of onboard the Death Star?

So if Vader is indeed Palpatine's representative, then why wouldn't he stop Tarkin from destroying Alderaan if it went against the Emperor's wishes? This shows that Tarkin had to have some sort of approval to do what he did.[/quote]

Why is the Death Star blowing up one planet seen as evil? Blowing up one planet, when you have a whole galaxy of them, is nothing.

Lets say the Rebels are one kid, and the Empire is a classroom of kids. The Death Star destroying one planet is comparable to the teacher giving the one kid a stern look to stop messing around.

Also, I want to ask, (if this is explained in the EU somewhere please correct me) but, so what if the Empire enslaved people and killed other races or whatever? I can safely assume that no one here has any idea what type of government policies would be required to run a fucking galaxy. Maybe slavery and genocide are required to run a galaxy?

Sure, the people who are enslaved are going to be pissed, but so are the real life workers who get stuck with crappy jobs, but guess what? Someone always has to get the crappy job.

(Again, if the EU says its not needed, then I admit Im wrong)

[Dark Flame]

Why else would they build a gigantic battle station with a planet killing superlaser ? What other purpose could there be for it? To assume that there is some unknown purpose is idiocy.

To scare people, much like how someone could buy a gun in self defense, and not intend to shot a robber, just scare him off. Anyone is going to think twice about messing with you if you have a massive gun pointed at them.

And it still ended up blowing a planet to smithereens over a trivial matter.

Why is the Death Star blowing up one planet seen as evil? Blowing up one planet, when you have a whole galaxy of them, is nothing.

So apparently it's legal and moral to kill billions (trillions?) of people simply because there are a lot more out there. That makes sense.

Lets say the Rebels are one kid, and the Empire is a classroom of kids. The Death Star destroying one planet is comparable to the teacher giving the one kid a stern look to stop messing around.

No, that's like the teacher taking a rocket launcher and blasting the kid to atoms. Just because there's more in the class doesn't mean that the one kid needs to be blown away.

Also, I want to ask, (if this is explained in the EU somewhere please correct me) but, so what if the Empire enslaved people and killed other races or whatever? I can safely assume that no one here has any idea what type of government policies would be required to run a fucking galaxy. Maybe slavery and genocide are required to run a galaxy?

Sure, the people who are enslaved are going to be pissed, but so are the real life workers who get stuck with crappy jobs, but guess what? Someone always has to get the crappy job.

(Again, if the EU says its not needed, then I admit Im wrong)

I always figured it would be like countries on Earth, writ large. Mass murder, genocide, slavery, and degredation is not necessary to have an effective government. Just because it's on a large scale doesn't make it right.

[Bladed_Crescent]

To scare people, much like how someone could buy a gun in self defense, and not intend to shot a robber, just scare him off.

Please explain how the destruction of Alderaan and the billions of people upon it was an act of "self-defence".

Why is the Death Star blowing up one planet seen as evil? Blowing up one planet, when you have a whole galaxy of them, is nothing.

....

What?

By that logic, murder isn't evil because we still have a whole planet full of people.

It was the deliberate annihilation of an entire civilization; billions of people, the vast majority of which posed no threat to the Empire. As Tarkin put it, he wanted "an effective demonstration". They were killed to terrorize the rest of the galaxy into submission to the Empire. That's peace, but only peace from a loaded gun. "Do what we say or we'll kill you." That's not a healthy government, that's tyranny.

And even if the Alderaani were supporting the Rebellion, there's political and economic sanctions, blockades, embargoes, diplomatic pressure. If your first response to rumours that one of your allies is backing an enemy is to go straight to "blow up the fucking planet and everyone on it", that's pretty evil.

Lets say the Rebels are one kid, and the Empire is a classroom of kids. The Death Star destroying one planet is comparable to the teacher giving the one kid a stern look to stop messing around.

It's more like the teacher beating the living shit out of one of the disruptive kid's friends in order to terrify the rest of the students into behaving.

...so what if the Empire enslaved people and killed other races or whatever?

....wow. That's pretty callous. "As long as it's not happening to me, who cares?" I imagine that the trillions of men, women and children who were made into property or killed outright and their families, and their allies might consider it very big deal that the government is sanctioning and carrying out atrocities.

A government cannot claim to have the moral high ground if it, as a matter of course, enslaves or destroys other races simply out of prejudice and political expediency. The Caamasi were a potential political threat? Turn their planet into glass.

A world of pacifists? Round them up at gunpoint, install circuitry into their brains and turn them into psychopathic fighters. If they refuse, burn the world.

The Wookiees are valued for their technical skills? Enslave their world and put them to work in labour camps.

Protestors carrying out anti-Imperial demonstrations? Kill them all.

Drug-addicted slaves? Buy them from the Hutts and put them into comfort houses for your troops.

The head of the largest criminal organization in the galaxy? Make him one of your lieutenants and reward his behaviour with fat shipping contracts.

But as long as the Core Worlds are rich, fat and happy, who the hell cares about anyone else?

It's rule by terror - the other species don't dare get out of line because if they do, they know what's going to happen to them. They could be stripped of the right to be known as people and turned into little more than chattel, like the Mon Calamari and Wookiees were, or they could be destroyed like Caamasi. In Wedge's Gamble, Nawara Ven even pointed this out: it was humans who had to start the Rebellion, because the Empire's boot was so firmly on the necks of the other races.

Maybe slavery and genocide are required to run a galaxy?

That would be why the Old Republic, an institution that ran the galaxy for millenia, was famous for keeping slaves and destroying entire species that pissed it off?

[Darth Ruinus]

They were killed to terrorize the rest of the galaxy into submission to the Empire.

Mmmh, I tought it was just the parts of the Galaxy that were uncoperative with the current government.

That's peace, but only peace from a loaded gun. "Do what we say or we'll kill you." That's not a healthy government, that's tyranny.

I dont see anything wrong with forced peace. And what I understand from some of these comments, most people supported the Empire, so it was a supported tyranny.

It's more like the teacher beating the living shit out of one of the disruptive kid's friends in order to terrify the rest of the students into behaving.

No, since beating the kid would be comparable to destroying a good portion of the galaxy. It would be more like punishing one kid, leaving the bully unharmed, and thus causing the other students to hate the bully a bit more, and not support him.

....wow. That's pretty callous. "As long as it's not happening to me, who cares?" I imagine that the trillions of men, women and children who were made into property or killed outright and their families, and their allies might consider it very big deal that the government is sanctioning and carrying out atrocities.

And I suppose all the people in the world right now, who are not doing anythign to stop slavery are calloused? I mean, most people feel bad for slaves, but are they doing anything against it? Some are, some arent. Am I to assume that all my friends who are not involved in anti-slavery groups are calloused bastards?

A government cannot claim to have the moral high ground if it, as a matter of course, enslaves or destroys other races simply out of prejudice and political expediency. The Caamasi were a potential political threat? Turn their planet into glass.

Unless Im wrong, the Empire never claimed to have the moral high ground. I could be wrong here though.

A world of pacifists? Round them up at gunpoint, install circuitry into their brains and turn them into psychopathic fighters. If they refuse, burn the world.

I dont read the EU, so I dont know what particular incident you are referring to here. Also, wouldnt the Empire have a problem with rebellion, instead of pacifism?

The Wookiees are valued for their technical skills? Enslave their world and put them to work in labour camps.

Protestors carrying out anti-Imperial demonstrations? Kill them all.

Well, if the Empire wants order, then it cant possibly allow such things to occur can they?

Drug-addicted slaves? Buy them from the Hutts and put them into comfort houses for your troops.

And as long as they get their drugs, they are happy. So I see no problem.

The head of the largest criminal organization in the galaxy? Make him one of your lieutenants and reward his behaviour with fat shipping contracts.

Um, what? (Again, no EU)

But as long as the Core Worlds are rich, fat and happy, who the hell cares about anyone else?

Are there more people in the Core Worlds than there are in the other areas? If so, then yeah who cares? The large majority are happy, therefore, your government is successful.

It's rule by terror - the other species don't dare get out of line because if they do, they know what's going to happen to them.

Which is what we should do now. Make punishments for crime much more harsh, so less people would commit them. (Or at least I hope harsher punishments deter people from crime.)

They could be stripped of the right to be known as people and turned into little more than chattel, like the Mon Calamari and Wookiees were, or they could be destroyed like Caamasi. In Wedge's Gamble, Nawara Ven even pointed this out: it was humans who had to start the Rebellion, because the Empire's boot was so firmly on the necks of the other races.

Well, if they are disrupting the order the Empire sets up, then they should be punished.

Maybe slavery and genocide are required to run a galaxy?

That would be why the Old Republic, an institution that ran the galaxy for millenia, was famous for keeping slaves and destroying entire species that pissed it off?[/quote]

And didnt the Empire grow because of slavery and such?

Im only using this from the Empire's original goals. (Or at least the ideas I always thought the Empire stood for. Order Peace etc.)

[Dark Flame]

Mmmh, I tought it was just the parts of the Galaxy that were uncoperative with the current government.

So you're going by the logic that if you have done nothing wrong then you have nothing to fear. What a great outlook on life.

I dont see anything wrong with forced peace. And what I understand from some of these comments, most people supported the Empire, so it was a supported tyranny.

Most people that did support the Empire had no idea what they were doing to the Outer Rim. They thought that the Emperor was a kind, benevolent old man, for crying out loud.

No, since beating the kid would be comparable to destroying a good portion of the galaxy. It would be more like punishing one kid, leaving the bully unharmed, and thus causing the other students to hate the bully a bit more, and not support him.

Dare I ask, but do you think that this is right?

And I suppose all the people in the world right now, who are not doing anythign to stop slavery are calloused? I mean, most people feel bad for slaves, but are they doing anything against it? Some are, some arent. Am I to assume that all my friends who are not involved in anti-slavery groups are calloused bastards?

No, because they are not trying to justify the slavery. They may not have the means or ability to help the slaves, but that doesn't mean they condone it.

Unless Im wrong, the Empire never claimed to have the moral high ground. I could be wrong here though.

Judging from Palpatine's public image as the aforementioned kind and benevolent old man, I'd say that the Empire maintained at least a cursory attempt at maintaining the moral high ground.

Well, if the Empire wants order, then it cant possibly allow such things to occur can they?

Many countries still have order even though they allow peaceful demonstrations and political opposition. Killing all dissidents and suppressing opposing viewpoints isn't a positive form of order, it is oppression.

And as long as they get their drugs, they are happy. So I see no problem.

As my mom tells me, two wrongs don't make a right. It would be morally correct to at least try to rehabilitate them.

The head of the largest criminal organization in the galaxy? Make him one of your lieutenants and reward his behaviour with fat shipping contracts.

Um, what? (Again, no EU)

Shadows of the Empire, specifically Xizor and his Black Sun organization.

Are there more people in the Core Worlds than there are in the other areas? If so, then yeah who cares? The large majority are happy, therefore, your government is successful.

So by this logic, Hitler's government was right because most of the people in Germany were happy. The fact that millions of people were murdered doesn't constitute a problem.

Which is what we should do now. Make punishments for crime much more harsh, so less people would commit them. (Or at least I hope harsher punishments deter people from crime.)

Harsher punishments would deter crime, if they were applied to those who commit the crimes. The Empire punished aliens for not bing human, and they punished anyone who spoke against them. They blatantly rewarded the leader of the largest criminal organization in the galaxy!

Well, if they are disrupting the order the Empire sets up, then they should be punished.

Oh how terrible of them to want to live their lives of their own accord, and be free to make their own decisions. How awful.

[TC Pilot]

It's an insult. It's not supposed to be accurate.

And "holding Vader's leash" isn't an insult?

But really, if Vader were subordinate to Tarkin as you claim, it only helps my argument.

And in Episode 2, he defied his master's orders to rescue him, which only ended in him and his girlfriend getting captured. If Vader felt that taking over the Death Star was a better idea than letting Tarkin control it, he would probably do it.

You do not seem to realize what vigilantism is. Rushing off to save Obi-Wan was not vigilantism, it was just reckless. Killing a duly appointed governor is another matter entirely.

Tarkin himself committed atrocities before destroying Alderaan. He committed the Ghorman Massacre with permission from Palpatine.

The protestors were breaking the law by impeding an Imperial official after being ordered to disperse.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Empire

I'll call your Wookieepedia and raise you one Imperial Sourcebook. Most Imperial citizens - which by the Imperial constitution means any sentient being except droids - lived as I have already described. Further, if you are going to offer evidence, please do not cite a completely unofficial and uncanonical source.

Why else would they build a gigantic battle station with a planet killing superlaser ? What other purpose could there be for it? To assume that there is some unknown purpose is idiocy.

Why else would Terran nations build atomic bombs if not to bomb cities with them?

Justification by logical fallacy does not help your case.

So if Vader is indeed Palpatine's representative, then why wouldn't he stop Tarkin from destroying Alderaan if it went against the Emperor's wishes?

Because Vader was not in charge of either Grand Moff Tarkin or the station. The powers of the head of state do not magically transfer over to those he chooses to represent himself with.

Why not? They have faster than light communications, and the Force to communicate with. If it was so much against Palpatine's policy, he would have told Tarkin and had Vader enforce his will before they got to Yavin.

Why should Vader neccesarily have to report Tarkin immediately? And further, why should Tarkin have needed to be removed before the Rebels were dealt with? Removing the man in charge of Oversector Outer on the verge of crushing the rebellion would be foolhardy and also unnecessary.

Your argument that Tarkin must have had Palpatine's approval because he was not instantaneously removed is absurd.

Several, including Sate Pestage, were chief facilitators of the anti-alien sentiment rampant throughout the empire, leading to widespread discrimination and the acceptance of slavery in many areas. Indeed, at least in part because of their efforts, several species, among them the Mon Calamari, were stripped of their status as fully self-sapient beings, more livestock than citizens in the Empire's eyes. Surely, this could not have occurred without their knowledge.

Why not? Grand Moff Tarkin wielded enormous power in Oversector Outer and the territory he administered was absolutely vast. How many atrocities on Earth have gone completely unpunished and unrecognized? Now multiply that by near-infinity and you have the territory the Empire must administrate and pacify.

Grand Moff Tarkin was a notorious mass-murder even before the Alderaan incident;

So Grand Moff Tarkin is the majority of the Imperial administrative apparatus?

(and yet, he still was one of Palpatine's chief advisors up until his death).

He was certainly not an advisor.

The planet Kashyyyk was occupied and enslaved with full Imperial knowledge.

And the Wookiees not only aided and abated known and wanted Jedi traitors, but actively resisted Imperial military forces.

Again, obey the law and life is good. Don't, and you get what you should expect.

And yet, for all of this, not a single member of the Imperial leadership was a ruthless tyrant?

That was not your argument initially.

How could the enslavement of entire worlds, planets that were key members of the Old Republic and were along major galactic trade roots, be kept quiet for decades?

Because of the power and influence wielded by those in charge of their respective territories. Things of this magnitude can be hidden easily. The Death Star's construction, in both cases, for example, or the burying of Lusankya on Coruscant.

That's all well and good, but I fail to see how it makes up for the myriad of injustices that Palpatine condoned, ignored, and explicitly ordered.

I never said it did. The Empire was just as capable of doing good (which it did) as it was of doing evil. The Empire is not a monolithic extension of Emperor Palpatine's personal will, nor is it the baby-punching, puppy-killing, moustache-twirling Nazi extravaganza you portray it as.

Just because he was recluse does not mean that he was not in full control of his Empire.

You completely misunderstand. Yes, the Emperor was both head of state and government, and held enormous constitutional power, but he did not run the Empire. As both Hoth, Grand Vizier Sate Pestage actually ran the day-to-day affairs of the Empire, with the Emperor a reclusive man probably more content to study the Dark Side.

I know they were, for the mainly-human worlds that populated the inner part of the galaxy. Outside of that comfortable sphere, slavery, slaughter, and exploitation was rampant. Are you saying that the suffering of trillions is acceptable as long as the people of the core worlds of the Empire live in comfort?

It is certainly better for the vast majority of sentient beings to be living in "luxury-liner" worlds, rather than no one under the New Republic. People were better off under the Empire.

A law which included no rights to free speech, due process, assembly, or press. But those things aren't really that important, I suppose.

And what makes you think citizens did not have those rights? Does it even matter if they do not have those rights if the people live in peace, security, and happiness?

Could you provide a transcript or a page number? I don't recall that particular passage.

Unfortunately, no. It is prior to the battle, and not long after the Emperor’s arrival. The passage has him contemplating the void of space while Vader kneels before him.

[chitoryu12]

And "holding Vader's leash" isn't an insult?

But really, if Vader were subordinate to Tarkin as you claim, it only helps my argument.

It's an insult, but certainly has some backing to it, unlike a "foul stench".

You do not seem to realize what vigilantism is. Rushing off to save Obi-Wan was not vigilantism, it was just reckless. Killing a duly appointed governor is another matter entirely.

Vigilantism is going against the established authority to do what you think is right. Disobeying your master sure as hell counts, especially when the odds of rescue are so low. And you would hardly have to kill someone to remove him from power. Just dump him on a sparesly populated planet with no spaceport.

The protestors were breaking the law by impeding an Imperial official after being ordered to disperse.

Yes, let's just land on a crowd of people and crush them with your ship!
They're breaking the law, so it's acceptable!


@Darth Ruinus

Well, if the Empire wants order, then it cant possibly allow such things to occur can they?

So, you advocate killing billions of people to keep order? We don't simply fire tank shells into a crowd of demonstraters in America. We're hardly a cesspit of anarchy and disorder.

And as long as they get their drugs, they are happy. So I see no problem.

By your logic, we should give crackheads drugs to keep them happy.

Are there more people in the Core Worlds than there are in the other areas? If so, then yeah who cares? The large majority are happy, therefore, your government is successful.

Let's put it another way: Suppose you rule a large country, the largest in the world. Almost everybody lives in the big cities and are generally happy. However, there are dissidents in the countryside who hate your government. Do you think it is morally no problem to simply send out death squads and execute them all, because everyone else is happy?

Well, if they are disrupting the order the Empire sets up, then they should be punished.

Man, what the FUCK is going on in your head?

[Darth Ruinus]

So you're going by the logic that if you have done nothing wrong then you have nothing to fear. What a great outlook on life.

Well, I do not commit any crimes, therefore I do not fear the government, so yes, it is a great outlook on life, stay out of trouble, and you wont find yourself in trouble, well for the most part. (Of course accidents do occur, but we are not talking about accidents)

Most people that did support the Empire had no idea what they were doing to the Outer Rim. They thought that the Emperor was a kind, benevolent old man, for crying out loud.

Wait, so the Empire was able to hide large scale oppression from a large portion of the galaxy? Sweet, they are efficient, a good trait in a government.

Dare I ask, but do you think that this is right?

If the bully pipes down, and the classroom becomes less disruptive then yes, I would think it is right.

No, because they are not trying to justify the slavery. They may not have the means or ability to help the slaves, but that doesn't mean they condone it.

Oh I know, I was just responding to being called callous.

Judging from Palpatine's public image as the aforementioned kind and benevolent old man, I'd say that the Empire maintained at least a cursory attempt at maintaining the moral high ground.

Ok, so they did, my bad. (On further thought, it doesnt matter if the Empire has the moral ground, they were doing what they set out to do, Peace and Order.)

Many countries still have order even though they allow peaceful demonstrations and political opposition. Killing all dissidents and suppressing opposing viewpoints isn't a positive form of order, it is oppression.

Well, since you said its not a positive form of order, can I assume it is a negative form? If so, I dont care, the Empire kept order, just not a good "lets solve everyones problems!" order.

As my mom tells me, two wrongs don't make a right. It would be morally correct to at least try to rehabilitate them.

Yes, it WOULD be morally correct to attempt to help them, but then its more efficient to use them in other ways, namely as slaves. Still, if they are drug addicted, and the Empire provides them with their drugs, and they are happy as a result, who cares? They are still happy? Maybe they like being addicted (probably why they are addictedin the first place) You simply cant take away their drug jollies because you dont like druggies.

Shadows of the Empire, specifically Xizor and his Black Sun organization.

Oh ok, I didnt know that.

So by this logic, Hitler's government was right because most of the people in Germany were happy. The fact that millions of people were murdered doesn't constitute a problem.

Well, If Hitler had won, and Earth was all Nazi by now, wouldnt it be a very small majority who thinks killing the Jewish a bad thing? I mean to say, its bad that he attempted to do that, but if we were all Nazi, we wouldnt think that way would we?

Harsher punishments would deter crime, if they were applied to those who commit the crimes. The Empire punished aliens for not bing human, and they punished anyone who spoke against them. They blatantly rewarded the leader of the largest criminal organization in the galaxy!

Well, by punishing those who spoke against them, they kept order, which is what they want. Order. I cant really say much about the crime guy, since I dont know the specs. But maybe he was going along with what they wanted or something? In which case, they are rewarding their ally.

Oh how terrible of them to want to live their lives of their own accord, and be free to make their own decisions. How awful.

Yup, if those decisions are agains the current government, either leave or put up with it. Or rebel. (In case you rebel, you get shot )

[Bladed_Crescent]

Mmmh, I tought it was just the parts of the Galaxy that were uncoperative with the current government.

And those that would be potentially be a problem as well. If not today, then tomorrow; remember Tarkin says "fear will keep the local systems in line" - he doesn't qualify that with "fear will keep rebellious systems in line". The Tarkin Doctrine was applied to the entire galaxy - but the Core Worlds never had to worry about it, because they kept in line. Millions of other planets weren't as fortunate.

And when you advocate ruling through terror? There's something horribly wrong, and it's not with the people who hate you.

I dont see anything wrong with forced peace.

Really? You don't see anything at all wrong with telling people that unless they live their lives the way you want, you're going to kill them? That unless they accept everything you do for them without hesitation or question, you're going to strip them of every right that they thought they had?

It's a good system for the people who obey. Note that word, 'obey' - because as soon as you step of out line, guess what's going to happen? Now, if you're set up so that you never ever have to worry about that, well, that's really good. For you. For the unlucky or those that don't want every facet of their lives controlled, it's not as pleasant.

When those in power can and will abuse it on their own whims? You could be one of the 'fortunate' one day and lose everything the next, just because you looked at the wrong person cockeyed.

No, since beating the kid would be comparable to destroying a good portion of the galaxy. It would be more like punishing one kid, leaving the bully unharmed, and thus causing the other students to hate the bully a bit more, and not support him.

It's also going to breed resentment for the teacher who punished the kid who didn't do anything and support for the "bully", because the teacher's actions have just validated him and his actions.

And I suppose all the people in the world right now, who are not doing anythign to stop slavery are calloused?

No, just the ones who go "Sucks to be them, but that's their place in life."

Unless Im wrong, the Empire never claimed to have the moral high ground.

I think there was something about Palpatine claiming that the Empire would be a "safe and secure society" and the EU has numerous mentions of the Empire specifically claiming the moral high ground.

I guess the problem is who, exactly, was safe and secure.

I dont read the EU, so I dont know what particular incident you are referring to here. Also, wouldnt the Empire have a problem with rebellion, instead of pacifism?

Sorry; I should have been more clear. It was in Tales of the Bounty Hunters; Dengar's accepted a bounty on COMPNOR official overseeing a process to specifically turn a peaceful race into a of psychopaths; if they resist, his orders were to - as Dengar put it - "fry the planet until even the worms choke on the ashes".

Well, if the Empire wants order, then it cant possibly allow such things to occur can they?

There's a difference between order and killing everyone who disagrees with you. I suggest that the line between the two is just shy of crushing thousands of people beneath your ship's hull, blowing up a planet, or otherwise usuing lethal force to quell peaceful protests.

And as long as they get their drugs, they are happy. So I see no problem.

Yeah, only these people didn't start out addicted until the Hutts enslaved them, then when they were no longer useful, sold them off to various sources, including the Empire.

You really don't see any problem with taking advantage of someone and forcing them to become a prostitute?

Shouldn't a government that wants order, safety and security for its citizens shut down the slave planet, and get the victims help? Shouldn't the cause of peace be advanced by stopping the slave trade, not profiting from it?

Um, what?

Sorry; Shadows of the Empire - Prince Xizor was one of the most powerful figures in the galaxy and was the head of Black Sun; as well as a trusted confidant of the Emperor, who gave his (legitimate) shipping concerns fat contracts. And yes, he knew that Xizor was the head of a criminal cartel.

Which is what we should do now. Make punishments for crime much more harsh, so less people would commit them.

Yes, but the Empire was punishing them just for being alien. They were already considered guilty and un-equal in the eyes of Imperial law.

Are there more people in the Core Worlds than there are in the other areas?If so, then yeah who cares? The large majority are happy, therefore, your government is successful.

And let's pay no attention to the wails of the dying and the enslaved under our feet. They should be grateful to serve their role as vassals for the elite! As long as the cream of society is happy, well, that's a good basis for any government. Especially since anyone who says they aren't happy is killed, imprisoned or exiled.

Why don't we put those damn uppity women back in the kitchen and black people back into the cotton fields? As long as there's order and stability for everyone else, why are they complaining? Why would anyone?! They're being looked after and it's their place in society!

Well, if they are disrupting the order the Empire sets up, then they should be punished.

Those bastards! How dare they just want to live their lives without being second-class citizens!

And didnt the Empire grow because of slavery and such?

If you count all the weapons of mass destruction (World Devastators, Death Star, Sun Crusher) that were manufactured with slave labour, then I guess that counts.

[Darth Ruinus]

By your logic, we should give crackheads drugs to keep them happy.

Mmmh, crackheads arent being usefull in any way, the drug addicted slaves were used in comfort homes for Imperial officers? Well, the drug addicted slaves are being usefull, and they are still happy with their drugs.

Let's put it another way: Suppose you rule a large country, the largest in the world. Almost everybody lives in the big cities and are generally happy. However, there are dissidents in the countryside who hate your government. Do you think it is morally no problem to simply send out death squads and execute them all, because everyone else is happy?

Well, if they are so pissed off that they build a rebel army and bomb and destroy my military bases, then I would consider then the enemy, and move to protect my assets. Also, how small of a portion are they? I guess (hypothetically) I could replace them if its a small portion.

Man, what the FUCK is going on in your head?

Just trying to argue from the Empire's point of view.

[Bladed_Crescent]

...the drug addicted slaves were used in comfort homes for Imperial officers? Well, the drug addicted slaves are being usefull, and they are still happy with their drugs.

Remember kids: it's okay to rape a girl who just passed out if she likes drinking. I mean, she's happy, right? She got some booze. The guys are happy. Everyone's happy! And there's nothing at all wrong with any of that!

I will repeat: they were forced to become addicts. They were forced to become slaves. And the government that was supposed to look after and protect them abused them even further.

[chitoryu12]

Mmmh, crackheads arent being usefull in any way, the drug addicted slaves were used in comfort homes for Imperial officers? Well, the drug addicted slaves are being usefull, and they are still happy with their drugs.

I'm sorry, did you just say we should keep slaves and give them the drugs they want because they are useful?

Well, if they are so pissed off that they build a rebel army and bomb and destroy my military bases, then I would consider then the enemy, and move to protect my assets. Also, how small of a portion are they? I guess (hypothetically) I could replace them if its a small portion.

And what if, like Alderaan, the only crime of one of the largest country towns closest to the big city is that they protest you? Is it still justifiable to shell the town? And what is this shit about "replacing" people? We're talking about living beings. You don't just shoot a man and say "Oh well. He can be replaced with someone better."

Just trying to argue from the Empire's point of view.

The most you've done is look totally morally bankrupt.

[Dark Flame]

Well, I do not commit any crimes, therefore I do not fear the government, so yes, it is a great outlook on life, stay out of trouble, and you wont find yourself in trouble, well for the most part. (Of course accidents do occur, but we are not talking about accidents)

I don't even know how to respond to that. When staying out of trouble means you can have no voice, and no opinion on the ruling body, no freedoms, no privacy, no way to express yourself. If you want basic rights, well too bad for you.

Wait, so the Empire was able to hide large scale oppression from a large portion of the galaxy? Sweet, they are efficient, a good trait in a government.

Ignorance is bliss, eh? What a great government that conceals the truth from the people. They must be good, because the people don't know any better! Of course, why didn't I see it sooner! [/sarcasm]

If the bully pipes down, and the classroom becomes less disruptive then yes, I would think it is right.

And then more dissent brews, and just like Bladed_Crescent said, more problems arise.

Well, since you said its not a positive form of order, can I assume it is a negative form? If so, I dont care, the Empire kept order, just not a good "lets solve everyones problems!" order.

So as long as your problems are solved, everything is okay. Once again, you are a callous bastard.

As my mom tells me, two wrongs don't make a right. It would be morally correct to at least try to rehabilitate them.

Well, If Hitler had won, and Earth was all Nazi by now, wouldnt it be a very small majority who thinks killing the Jewish a bad thing? I mean to say, its bad that he attempted to do that, but if we were all Nazi, we wouldnt think that way would we?

What does that have to do with anything?

Well, by punishing those who spoke against them, they kept order, which is what they want. Order. I cant really say much about the crime guy, since I dont know the specs. But maybe he was going along with what they wanted or something? In which case, they are rewarding their ally.

When will it get through your skull, the Empire was oppressing millions of beings to maintain that Order. That's not right. That's forcing Order down everyone's throats and making them swallow. And those that didn't want to follow that Order because it turned them into second-class citizens just had to die for the greater good, I suppose.

Yup, if those decisions are agains the current government, either leave or put up with it. Or rebel. (In case you rebel, you get shot )

Leave to where, exactly? Most citizens didn't own a hyperdrive capable ship, and even if they did there aren't a lot of civilized places for them to go to escape the Empire. So their options are now to shut up and be the Empire's little bitches, or get shot. That's a lousy set of options.

I don't even see the point of trying to hammer the idea that dictatorships are wrong through your head.

[TC Pilot]

Vigilantism is going against the established authority to do what you think is right. Disobeying your master sure as hell counts, especially when the odds of rescue are so low.

Well, you were right about one thing: I do need to rewatch Episode 2, and so do you. Anakin was explicitely against rushing off to save Obi-Wan, and only by virtue of the fact Amidala was going did he agree as well.

[Darth Ruinus]

I will repeat: they were forced to become addicts. They were forced to become slaves. And the government that was supposed to look after and protect them abused them even further.

Oh, they were forced? Oh I didnt know that untill I read your other comment.

You don't just shoot a man and say "Oh well. He can be replaced with someone better."

Well, If my brother died, I am NOT going to go "Oh well, I can replace him." However, if I worked for a big company, or something along those lines, and I died, I can and WILL be replaced.

The most you've done is look totally morally bankrupt.

Well Ok, may I remind you, I was attempting to argue for the EMpires side. Since the evidence seems to be that the Empire was evil and bad, I will concede that the Empire was bad. (I guess)

[Warsie]

Yup, if those decisions are agains the current government, either leave or put up with it. Or rebel. (In case you rebel, you get shot )

Well the Empire has a tendency to invade neutral Outer RIm Worlds so...haha

EDIT: And the bias against Aliens...wel, a result of the Clone Wars as the mainly-alien COnfederacy of Independent systems and what Grievous did to the Galaxy

EDIT 2: But you must remember for Alderaan: Alderaan was aiding Rebels and it was public knowledge (or at least rumors). From the nobility (Vader was getting suspicious of Leia Organa appearing where Alliance forces tended to be) to the common man (note the anti-imperial protests happening as soon as the Empire happened and Alderaanians tending to join said Alliance)

EDIT 3: The Doctrine of Fear, while true might be overblown. The Clone Wars scared the shit out of the Galaxy and made it more willing to accept the Empire, which was an improvement (well, unless you were one of the worlds that seceded originally, then they oppressed you badly often). In other areas, it wasn't as bad (like Sluis Van and Sullust)

The Galaxy greeted the Empire back, well a majority of the population did. They weren't afraid of the Empire at first (well, not originally) they were afraid of the Clone Wars and what that did and what another uprising would happen; they accepted it as an improvement, which it was. Given how long it took for a decent (organized) rebellion to happen and much of it was in the rim the CW scared the shit out of most people (well, it was less than 20 years ago, you don't want a second galactic war in so quick a time LOL)

EDIT 4: The Constitution gives full rights to sentients though. Though said laws tended to be broken in the rim (which tended to go Confederate before and during said Clone Wars)