Palpatine's RedGuard vs. the Sardaukar (Dune)

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-11 12:46am

There are given some degree of healing as well some mental rapport, though little was done to say much more...though the SP are given minor TK.

That aside we know what the carry as weaponry as well as common levels of reaction speed.

The problem is that nothing is really said about the skill levels on any objective basis of what the Sardukar are. All that is said is basically they are fearsome in combat and that the Fremen dispatched them with relative ease.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2003-01-11 02:13pm

...Sardukar are inferior to Fremen. The book pounds this fact in

Although it does also say that the Sarduakar Corps isnt what it used to be, that they've grown soft and weak.

BTW, does the second part of Crimson Empire give low-level force powers to the "Crimson Guard" ? I mean does Kanos get force powers or something ?

I didnt actually see any indication that the guys being trained at Ynchorr were anything other than the "basic" Royal Guardsmen,

Only one guy demonstrated Force powers.

Although Kanos did manage to beat him, and did actually block blaster bolts, but I was just wondering if its verifed

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-11 02:17pm

white_rabbit wrote:
...Sardukar are inferior to Fremen. The book pounds this fact in
Although it does also say that the Sarduakar Corps isnt what it used to be, that they've grown soft and weak.

Who cares why they can be beaten?

BTW, does the second part of Crimson Empire give low-level force powers to the "Crimson Guard" ? I mean does Kanos get force powers or something?

They all have Force powers. The precog part of them, which is why they can block blaster fire with their Force pikes. How the fuck do you think they can use Force pikes without Force powers?

I didnt actually see any indication that the guys being trained at Ynchorr were anything other than the "basic" Royal Guardsmen,

Your blindness is not my problem.

Only one guy demonstrated Force powers.

Only one guy demonstrated Jedi-level Force powers.

Although Kanos did manage to beat him, and did actually block blaster bolts, but I was just wondering if its verifed

Try blocking blaster bolts without Force powers. Duh.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2003-01-11 03:02pm

Who cares why they can be beaten?

Feeling particularly aggressive today ? Im talking to someone about Dune

Your blindness is not my problem.

Blindness ?

What blindness ?

I saw Imperial Guardsmen being trained, the same guardsmen who were in awe of the "Imperial Guard"

Where the hell did "crimson" guard come from ?

Is it something thats become standard parlance ?

I have the first series of CE which finishes with the death of Carnor Jax

I wanted to know was if they were mentioned as a special elite Crimson Guard

Try blocking blaster bolts without Force powers. Duh.

did I mention this...yes....did I say that they arent force users...no.

I dont have all of Crimson Empire...so.I asked if in the second series did mention anything more..

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-11 03:22pm

In other words, you're trying to say you weren't making any kind of relevant point at all. Hooray for you

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2003-01-11 03:59pm

Darth Wong wrote:snip

Answer the questions..

1: Is crimson Guard a fan-label, or does the second half introduce it
2: does it specify that they have force abilitys.

If you dont know...thats okay.

Anyone else ?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-11 06:48pm

1. Crisom guard is because of color...when talking SW people usually grasp whom they are talking about.

2. Have you seen anyone without any level of Force ability block Blasters?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-11 07:06pm

white_rabbit wrote:Answer the questions..

1: Is crimson Guard a fan-label, or does the second half introduce it

Explain why nomenclature is relevant to the point.

2: does it specify that they have force abilitys.

It specifies that they can block blaster bolts from multiple attackers, dumb-fuck. This is not possible without Force powers. Are you saying that you're so goddamned stupid that you need one of the writers to spell it out for you?

And for the second time, what do you think a Force pike is for, if not a Force user?

If you dont know...thats okay.

You are basically saying that you demand a specific type of evidence, and will ignore any other type even if it proves the point. Pure sophistry.

Anyone else ?

Dumb-fuck ...

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2003-01-11 08:58pm

Explain why nomenclature is relevant to the point.

Because it tells me the answer to my question, not whether they are force users or anything like that.

But if the second series of the damn comic names them as such !

Holy shit, anyone would think Id said they were incompetant redshirts..

It specifies that they can block blaster bolts from multiple attackers, dumb-fuck. This is not possible without Force powers. Are you saying that you're so goddamned stupid that you need one of the writers to spell it out for you?

What ?

Suddenly asking if their training in the force, or their selection due to force powers is mentioned in a piece of work I dont have is being fucking stupid..

Dont be a fucking idiot,

And since I dont have the second part of Crimson Empire, HOW THE FUCK am I supposed to know they block blaster bolts from multiple opponents, when in Crimson Empire 1, Kanos blocks a single pistol shot from a stormy after eviscerating 2 others, then later on blocks a single blaster beam from one of Carnor Jaxs

No fucking multiple blocks there....So can someone with the goddamn book please sodding well tell me what happens in the second one!

You are basically saying that you demand a specific type of evidence, and will ignore any other type even if it proves the point. Pure sophistry.

Are you dense ?

Im asking a question about their name, and whether its a fan label or a different section of the Royal guard!

So far I know of the following sections of Imperial guard.

Imperial Guard
Soveriegn Protectors

plus some Dark Side Adepts that might be SPs I cant remember

Have you seen anyone without any level of Force ability block Blasters?

For fucks sake, Im not denying anything about the bastard force powers.

And for the second time, what do you think a Force pike is for, if not a Force user?

You know, thats what I thought when I read what they were called god knows how many years ago..

So I was a little confused when the description in the bloody tech guide describes them as a vibroweapon.

Complete with a pretty picture with all the shock generators and vibration generators etc all labelled as well as several paragraphs calling them shock/vibro-weapons, with a stun charge tip (EGWT, page 63)

so naturally I assumed they werent FUCKING FORCE WEAPONS.

So....its obvious the second series was pretty revealing about them as well.

Although Kanos appears to prefer his kick-arse double nagitana to the standard force pike.

So, is this bloody tech manual fucking useless ?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-11 09:10pm

Ender wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Oh yeah, Royal Guardsmen and Soveriegn Protectors carry heavy blaster pistols (plural ANH Solo type weapons now--blowing torso-sized chunks of hangar).
No. They do not carry Han Solo "blast torsos out of walls" weapons.

Theirs are bigger, capable of punching through a TIE's viewport.

To give a quasimodern comparrison, the Usual rebel sidearm and gun the scouttroopers use is equivlent to a Glock 9mm. Han carries the equivlent to a 50 cal Desert Eagle. The Guards carry one of those new four barrels the Army is developing for Land Warrior.

These are not guys you want to fuck with.

Descriptions just say "heavy blaster pistols" in the Essential Guide to Characters description for the Royal Guard.

Do you enjoy hyperbole or do you have evidence?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-11 09:12pm

Mr Bean wrote:
True. Although arguably the Imperial Guardsmen are subject to the whim of the Emperor. They can't do anything without his permission... or can they?
Yes they can as a matter of fact, Like Mara Jade they are his roving Agents, If they want to BDZ a planet they have the Authorty to do so, Thier might be hell to pay AFTER the fact but that planets still long gone

Furthermore Comparing the Redicuously Restricted Travel of Dune, VS the Fact your avarage Middle Class of SW can buy thier own spaceship is ludcious to say the least

I'd think Jax is an exception. The "officer" or "authorities" among the Royal Guard are the Soveriegn Protectors--specifically tapped to "police the ranks" of the Imperial Royal Guard. The others appear to simply remain w/ the Emperor and his important possessions/installations.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-11 09:14pm

But the point was have you ever seen anyone block blaster shots WITHOUT Force abilities.

In CE there is no showing or telling of this, but he does do just this.

Throughout the EU there is implication that the IG are so highly trained no one knows all their abilites except the Emperor.

So you're going so we see him block blaster bolts, people mistaking his fighting skills for a Jedi but no definitive "The Emperor gives them Force training!"

So the question is have you ever seen or read ANYONE in EU that has ever deflect/blocked a Blaster bolt cosistently WITHOUT having some training in the Force.

Jeebus...getting all hot and nasty when no one is saying you are denying but asking why do you think we are saying it.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-11 09:16pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Descriptions just say "heavy blaster pistols" in the Essential Guide to Characters description for the Royal Guard.

Do you enjoy hyperbole or do you have evidence?

Kir Kanos was using some type of weapon in CE #3 that did just that...something I don't believe we have seen from any hand-held weapon up until that time.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-11 09:17pm

white_rabbit wrote:
Explain why nomenclature is relevant to the point.
Because it tells me the answer to my question, not whether they are force users or anything like that.

In other words, it is not relevant to the point.

Suddenly asking if their training in the force, or their selection due to force powers is mentioned in a piece of work I dont have is being fucking stupid..

It is when multiple people point out that they can block blaster bolts and you act as though it means nothing.

Dont be a fucking idiot,

Speak for yourself.

And since I dont have the second part of Crimson Empire, HOW THE FUCK am I supposed to know they block blaster bolts from multiple opponents, when in Crimson Empire 1, Kanos blocks a single pistol shot from a stormy after eviscerating 2 others, then later on blocks a single blaster beam from one of Carnor Jaxs

Even if they only block blaster bolts from one opponent, how the fuck do you do that with human reflexes and a thin staff?

No fucking multiple blocks there....So can someone with the goddamn book please sodding well tell me what happens in the second one!

Kanos shows up in the middle of a battle and starts taking out whole squads of stormtroopers by himself.

You are basically saying that you demand a specific type of evidence, and will ignore any other type even if it proves the point. Pure sophistry.

Are you dense ?[/quote]
For not accepting your bullshit? No, but you certainly are for repeating it.

Im asking a question about their name, and whether its a fan label or a different section of the Royal guard!

No, you are asking for evidence that they have Force powers even though this evidence has already been provided. Do not change the subject and play innocent, dumb-fuck.

So far I know of the following sections of Imperial guard.

Imperial Guard
Soveriegn Protectors

plus some Dark Side Adepts that might be SPs I cant remember

So far I don't give a flying fuck about your red-herring. This thead is about their ability to fight the Sardaukar from Dune, not your completely irrelevant nitpicking over nomenclature, asshole. Read the fucking thread title.

For fucks sake, Im not denying anything about the bastard force powers.

No, you're just demanding evidence of those Force powers even though such evidence has already been provided.

So, is this bloody tech manual fucking useless ?

In some ways, yes. The 15-minute setup time for the E-Web, for example, is clearly idiotic in light of the tactical disadvantage of such a long delay, and the fact that the snowtroopers in the hangar at Hoth were getting ready to fire their weapon after less than a minute.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-11 09:19pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Do you enjoy hyperbole or do you have evidence?

Actually, Kir Kanos shoots down a TIE Interceptor with his sidearm. Un-fucking-believable, given the other reports of small-arms ineffectiveness against TIE fighters.

"But bein' that this is an Imperial Guardsman pistol, the most powerful handgun in the galaxy, and will blow your head CLEEEAN off, you've gotta ask yourself a question: do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-11 09:25pm

1.) Descriptions of the Royal Guard say they all have Force potential and are all trained in limited use of the Force.

2.) A member of the Royal Guardsmen trainees on Yinchoor are supposed to give Darth Vader a run for his money before that batch is anywhere near useful to His Imperial Majesty.

3.) The Imperial Royal Guard is also known as the Crimson Guard.

4.) Kir Kanos can block blaster bolts w/ his wierd bladed quarterstaff thingy due to Force training (its not really the Force pikes from the movies, but those are actually ceremonial and not really important).

5.) The Imperial Soveriegn Protectors are the elite Royal Guardsmen who run/police the ranks of the Royal Guard and protect the cloning vats on Byss. They are trained in the powers of the a Dark Side Adept as well as the previous more combat/pre-cog/reflexes Force usage.

Darth Wong wrote: And for the second time, what do you think a Force pike is for, if not a Force user?

Small nitpick FYI that is not having anything to do w/ your point: I'm not quite sure Kanos' weapon is a Force pike as the only ones we see are those carried by the Guardsmen in AOTC and ROTJ and they are not the same as Kanos' weapon. Also, according to Essential Guide to Weapons and Tech., Force pikes are used by traditional militaries for close-quarters combat in general and are apparently useful for breaching into starships or something. Anyone, point being they're not specifically associated w/ Force adepts.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-11 09:27pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Do you enjoy hyperbole or do you have evidence?
Actually, Kir Kanos shoots down a TIE Interceptor with his sidearm. Un-fucking-believable, given the other reports of small-arms ineffectiveness against TIE fighters.

I stand corrected and will promptly STFU. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Like an SW Disruptor on steroids or something.

Darth Wong wrote:"But bein' that this is an Imperial Guardsman pistol, the most powerful handgun in the galaxy, and will blow your head CLEEEAN off, you've gotta ask yourself a question: do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

Nice quote.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2003-01-11 09:34pm

Actually, Kir Kanos shoots down a TIE Interceptor with his sidearm. Un-fucking-believable, given the other reports of small-arms ineffectiveness against TIE fighters.

Fucking brilliant little scene that, Crimson Empire 1 was full of them,

I would say my favorite was the final duel in the squall though,

In other words, it is not relevant to the point.

Gee, sorry if a thread that appears to have come to its conclusion was horrifically derailed

It is when multiple people point out that they can block blaster bolts and you act as though it means nothing.

Act ?

I dont act anything like that...I have the damn book, all I wanted to know was if the second book carried it through...

Speak for yourself.

I shall be childish and say, NO, you speak for YOURself..

Even if they only block blaster bolts from one opponent, how the fuck do you do that with human reflexes and a thin staff?

Damn, you dont let go, I know this...I wish to know if Crimson empire, or hell, anything which includes CE related material refers to force abilitys being involved in the selection of the Guard, and/or if they are cultivated.

For not accepting your bullshit? No, but you certainly are for repeating it.

Yeah yeah, whatever, Im bullshitting cause I want to know what happens next, and if there is a Crimson guard.

fucking hell.

This thead is about their ability to fight the Sardaukar from Dune, not your completely irrelevant nitpicking over nomenclature, asshole. Read the fucking thread title

As I said, pretty much established that they would beat the Sardaukar, I dont see the problem with asking if the Crimson guard is a fucking special unit, or a cool fan name..

No, you're just demanding evidence of those Force powers even though such evidence has already been provided.

Demanding ?

I want to find out about the second part of a bloody cool book!, and Im curious as to where the fucking name crimson Guard came from! , as well as if the whole low-level force powers is extended to the Imperial guard rather than Just Kanos and Jax

At least you answered about the bloody multiple blaster shots.

Kir Kanos was using some type of weapon in CE #3 that did just that

It looks to be similar to Hans blaster, same shape of barrel etc

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-11 09:40pm

Yeah, sure, you were just asking a question about source, and not trying to imply in any way, shape, or form that the claims regarding Force power were false ...

white_rabbit wrote:I didnt actually see any indication that the guys being trained at Ynchorr were anything other than the "basic" Royal Guardsmen,

Only one guy demonstrated Force powers.

Whatever. Tell yourself whatever it takes.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2003-01-11 10:05pm

Darth Wong wrote:Yeah, sure, you were just asking a question about source, and not trying to imply in any way, shape, or form that the claims regarding Force power were false ...
white_rabbit wrote:I didnt actually see any indication that the guys being trained at Ynchorr were anything other than the "basic" Royal Guardsmen,

Only one guy demonstrated Force powers.
Whatever. Tell yourself whatever it takes.

I stand by that, only Carnor Jax demonstrated ability with the force that could not be explained away by a horrifically tenous link...like the one that follows

Sheer, blind dumb luck, as well uber training might account for the blocking of two blaster bolts, neither of which were going to hit Kanos in his postion, although comic vagaries can be blamed for that I think.

Theres nothing that actually tells me precise, no-nonsense terms that any other guardsmen in that training arena had force abilitys, apart from Jax and Kanos.

And since Jax IIRc was being groomed to be a SP, and that the other guardsmen were killed without demonstrating force abilities...like sensing the stormies about to bust in and waste them etc etc.

I would think it possible that while some of the Guard may have had force abilitys, the ones that did became SPs

pure conjecture I know, and exactly why I wanted to know about the rest of Crimson empire.

its difficult to try and convince people that the RG may have had force powers, when only one guy has verifiable force abilities, that cant be explained away to a life of training and luck.

So, since Wong isnt going to answer me other than to call me a dumbfuck, can someone with the info I seek tell me ?

Websearchs dont really help, since CE isnt availaible online to read AFAIK, and I cant buy it, well, I dont feel like paying for it to be shipped from america anyway.

It doesnt even have to be from CE, a ref to force powers being common in the guard solves all my problems.

although not I suspect the animosity Ive just garnered....

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-11 10:17pm

Doesn't fucking matter dipshit. The Sourcebooks already told us ALL OF THE FUCKING GUARD have Force powers. Therefore your complaints are irrelevent.

Jax had more training because he was the brief-time pupil of an ersatz Sith Lord.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-11 10:20pm

white_rabbit wrote:Sheer, blind dumb luck, as well uber training might account for the blocking of two blaster bolts ...

Thank you for demonstrating that you are a drooling moron.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2003-01-11 10:34pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Doesn't fucking matter dipshit. The Sourcebooks already told us ALL OF THE FUCKING GUARD have Force powers. Therefore your complaints are irrelevent.

Jax had more training because he was the brief-time pupil of an ersatz Sith Lord.

Wow, insults from a moron..

how painful.

Yah see, if I had those bastard source books, I would have known this, much like I would have known that force pikes arent actually the Vibro/shock weapons that the tech book says they are.

What fucking complaints ? you mean, when I ask for information ?

Fuck off, hangers on are just annoying. although you at least gave info that I asked for.

Thank you for demonstrating that you are a drooling moron.

I think you will find the drooling moron is the guy who used said argument against me. What a whiney bitch you are, unless theres something to contradict the damn tech-book, as it stands you are wrong about the force pikes, so sod off.

Now if I had said I fully supported that idea, then yes, I would be a drooling moron..but I didnt...so..fuck off

Damn, ask questions, get accused of everything bar treason.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-11 11:27pm

white_rabbit wrote:What fucking complaints ? you mean, when I ask for information ?

You stated that no one exhibited Force powers but Jax. Everybody and his dog pointed out that all of them could deflect blaster bolts. You continued to ask for evidence of Force powers. This is your stupidity.

I think you will find the drooling moron is the guy who used said argument against me. What a whiney bitch you are, unless theres something to contradict the damn tech-book, as it stands you are wrong about the force pikes, so sod off.

The Force pikes aren't the main point; the Crimson Guardsmens' Force precog is. They can block blaster bolts; an ability not shared by any without the Force.

Now if I had said I fully supported that idea, then yes, I would be a drooling moron..but I didnt...so..fuck off

You said that no one exhibited Force powers but Jax. You refused to admit that this was clearly wrong, and then tried to pretend you'd said no such thing and never denied Force powers in Crimson Guardsmen after the fact. Maybe we just don't like liars, rabbit. If you honestly fessed up and said "oops, I didn't think about that", we wouldn't have set upon you.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2003-01-11 11:53pm

You stated that no one exhibited Force powers but Jax. Everybody and his dog pointed out that all of them could deflect blaster bolts. You continued to ask for evidence of Force powers. This is your stupidity.

Whats wrong with more evidence, especially since I actually dont have the nice source book that would

1: Tell me they were ALL force users
2:Tell me that force pikes were "force" weapons

You said that no one exhibited Force powers but Jax. You refused to admit that this was clearly wrong, and then tried to pretend you'd said no such thing and never denied Force powers in Crimson Guardsmen after the fact. Maybe we just don't like liars, rabbit. If you honestly fessed up and said "oops, I didn't think about that", we wouldn't have set upon you.

Inaccurate maybe I was, I honestly dont consider the bolt blocking in CE-1 to be enough evidence of force abilitys in Kanos, combined with his combat with Jax is what convinced me that Kanos at least is somewhat force sensitive.

But otherwise however tenous, the lfact is Kanos appears to be blocking the bolts for no reason, which is why I cant personally dismiss it as force abilitys. he just seems to be a highly skilled fighter, the leaps etc from thew fight in the squall are proof enough for Jaxs abilitys, plus the TK powers but Kanos doesnt do any of that,

But my point still stands, without the "sourcebook quotes" or something, from the basic of CE 1 I cant honestly say that the IG are all force users.

I am now aware of this....so I have the info I needed.

I am not lying, I am asking questions, Sorry if you got the wrong impression.

I dont consider blocking blaster bolts a "force" power , they arent fast enough that a bit of blind luck and extreme skill can't create a "block" and Kanos "blocked" bolts that werent going to hit him, which made me consider it wasnt a force based power, since he then would have been able to tell if it was going to hit him, although with a blaster bolt I think he might manage anyway. since he blocked non-lethal strikes I considered it possible that they were instinctive moves, resulting from intense training.

If the bolts moved as fast as a modern bullet can, then its force powers, but they dont *shrug*

I would not like to be labelled a liar here, I hope this makes it clear...