Empire -v- Landsrad ALL OUT GROUND WAR

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-01-11 01:52pm

Ok we have done the invividual troops arguement to death. We accept crimsen guard would win. How about in a full land battle.

Ok the Empire has storm troopers, AT-PT's, AT-ST's, and AT-AT's

Dune has hundreds of different types of soldier, from Sardukar to Femen. For armour i'm not sure, it is mentioned in the 1st book but not seen.

For arguements sake there is no air/space support.

What do you think will happen.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-01-11 02:02pm

At-At's go on a giant killing spree with thier weapons, Lazguns are of questional effectivness VS At-At armor and possible shielding, PT's as welling would rip through them and they simply can't stand up to the concrated firepower of Imperal Forces

You can have shields and get close enough to go h2h or you can have No shields and Laser-Rifles

Also Lasers-Rifles have extremely limited amountion(And no reloading they are "Recharged") so basicly its British Expidtorinary Force of 1812 VS The British Expidorinary Force of 1941

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-01-11 02:16pm

i don't know about the las-gun thing, i have visions of any walker having it's legs cut out underneath it. Don't forget Paul was in a heavily armored palace and still they had to hid him a good bit underground. if a lasgun can do that to stone it's be easy to carve through a walker.

Pu-239 · Post by **Pu-239** » 2003-01-11 02:48pm

eh, the warsies will say that the armor is more resistant than stone, probably true though. Then again the legs are pretty weak. Is the dune side allowed to used WMD like stoneburners and the like? The empire would win with shear numbers otherwise.

Pu-239 · Post by **Pu-239** » 2003-01-11 02:52pm

Does the empire have any nuke type weapon that can be deployed by ground forces? We know they have gas, does the dune side have nbc protection? How much damage can dune shields take?

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-01-11 02:54pm

i disagree with the numbers, in an all out war the entire armies of the Duniverse are included, thats all the Great Houses armies, and the forces under the Golden Lion Throne and this is the Empire of a Million worlds.

In a comparison there is this. Ok one of those satelite TV laser turets hit a walker causing it to lose maneuverability. I doubt the same satelite dish laser can carve through rock. A lasgun can.

For the sake of arguement the Landsrad armies will not use nukes. Neither will the GE

Pu-239 · Post by **Pu-239** » 2003-01-11 03:04pm

Darth Pounder wrote:i disagree with the numbers, in an all out war the entire armies of the Duniverse are included, thats all the Great Houses armies, and the forces under the Golden Lion Throne and this is the Empire of a Million worlds.

In a comparison there is this. Ok one of those satelite TV laser turets hit a walker causing it to lose maneuverability. I doubt the same satelite dish laser can carve through rock. A lasgun can.

For the sake of arguement the Landsrad armies will not use nukes. Neither will the GE

Next the warsies will ask for proof the satellite dish laser can't cut through rock.

I like dune. But they will get assraped. Does the duneverse have tanks, artillery, etc?

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-01-11 03:08pm

like i say it was mentioned in the 1st book, but on Dune heavy machinery wuld only encourage a worm attack and really doesn't fit with the 1-on-1 blade fighting that Herbert pushes.

In one chapter Gurney mentions to Leto that "Heavy armor is in place in Carthage"

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-01-11 03:21pm

They have armor but thier ships as we know as shit

However as its been noted At-At's seem to carry shield generators(They certiantly can) and that agian brings up the question of how Blasters affect Dune Shielding and Lasers affect SW shielding, Likley the Lasers will simply be normal energy thusly fucking over Dune forces who face enemys who can rip them apart with ease, Blasters affect is unknow but the kinetics alone will kill ground troops of any kind that Dune can field

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-01-11 05:27pm

The Empire of the Duniverse won't use lasguns. The whole shield-blowback thing.

They'll be summarily slaughtered.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-01-11 06:33pm

HemlockGrey wrote:The Empire of the Duniverse won't use lasguns. The whole shield-blowback thing.

They'll be summarily slaughtered.

As far as I know, the lasgun-shield reaction works with lasguns and Dune shields, I doubt blasters have the same effect, nor would it take long for the Landsraad forces to realise this.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-11 09:36pm

Darth Pounder wrote:i disagree with the numbers, in an all out war the entire armies of the Duniverse are included, thats all the Great Houses armies, and the forces under the Golden Lion Throne and this is the Empire of a Million worlds.

In a comparison there is this. Ok one of those satelite TV laser turets hit a walker causing it to lose maneuverability. I doubt the same satelite dish laser can carve through rock. A lasgun can.

For the sake of arguement the Landsrad armies will not use nukes. Neither will the GE

The Galactic Empire can call on the resources of over 51 million worlds and quadrillions of beings. The AT-AT's we saw hit by ground fire where undamaged afterward.

The Forces of Dune would be utterly defeated at long range by the walkers and close combat would be a total slaughter. It would be even worse if the Empires vast array of hover tanks, armed land speeders, field, siege and missile artillery and ground support aircraft where brought in as they would be in a real fight.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-01-11 10:03pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
The Galactic Empire can call on the resources of over 51 million worlds and quadrillions of beings.

Where did those numbers come from? I've heard the GE was about a million planets.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-11 10:06pm

Frank Hipper wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:
The Galactic Empire can call on the resources of over 51 million worlds and quadrillions of beings.
Where did those numbers come from? I've heard the GE was about a million planets.

1 million full member planets, 50 million colonies, outposts, mining stations and what not.

51 million total.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-11 10:18pm

Frank Hipper wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:
The Galactic Empire can call on the resources of over 51 million worlds and quadrillions of beings.
Where did those numbers come from? I've heard the GE was about a million planets.

WEG source books, which say 1 million full members and 50 million lesser worlds. This is supported by some other sources, one indicates that the New Republic had somthing like 600,000 full members around 10 years after Endor. Population comes fomr simple observation of Couscant which could easily have a qaudrillion people in its kilometers thick planet covering city.

The introduction of AOTCICS also say's that Quintillions of enginerring pioneers where active in the Early Hyperspace Age. Even if thats assumed to be several thousand years it would easily allow for a galatic population in the quadrillions. Of course even if it was over 5,000 years there have been 20,000 more for the populations to grow.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-01-11 10:23pm

This thing could also depend on who's in power.
Paul Atreides had perfect prescience, to the point that when he lost his eyesight he could put his signature on a piece of paper and slap it in back into someone's hand, all through precognition. A trivial example when we're talking universe vs universe, but indicative.
Wouldn't it stand to reason that he would know all plans of attack ahead of time?
Would technological and firepower superiority count against infallible, and complete intellegence of an enemy's plans?

If we're talking a Corrino, *cues Imperial March*

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-01-11 10:28pm

It means like the Jihad he tried to spot

He does not have any forking chance!

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-11 10:34pm

Frank Hipper wrote:Would technological and firepower superiority count against infallible, and complete intellegence of an enemy's plans?

All this means is that he would have perfect prescience of the Empire about to kick his ass.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-11 10:37pm

Darth Pounder wrote:i disagree with the numbers, in an all out war the entire armies of the Duniverse are included, thats all the Great Houses armies, and the forces under the Golden Lion Throne and this is the Empire of a Million worlds.

None of whose weapons were within orders of magnitude of the Death Star. These combatants simply aren't in the same league, people.

In a comparison there is this. Ok one of those satelite TV laser turets hit a walker causing it to lose maneuverability.

Wrong. There was no effect whatsoever on the walker.

I doubt the same satelite dish laser can carve through rock. A lasgun can.

Watch AOTC. A satellite dish laser the size of a basketball can carve through rock, even with a sweep. And a handgun will blow torso-sized chunks out of a ferrocrete docking bay that can withstand ion engine backwash.

For the sake of arguement the Landsrad armies will not use nukes. Neither will the GE

The GE doesn't need nukes since they can scale up their conventional weapons to nuke-level firepower and beyond.

The Dune forces start getting ass-raped from at least 17 km away by AT-AT long-range artillery, and have no way of responding. The vast majority of them die without ever seeing the faces of their killers. The rest surrender.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-01-11 11:59pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote:Would technological and firepower superiority count against infallible, and complete intellegence of an enemy's plans?
All this means is that he would have perfect prescience of the Empire about to kick his ass.

I did vote Star Wars in this poll, BTW, and it grieved me enormously to do so. That's why I've never started a vs thread with SW vs Dune. Individuals vs individuals might be interesting, until force users come into play. Saurdaukar vs Stormtroopers, maybe.
I haven't even mentioned my cons on the Dune side. Seeing as how no one else has thought of them, I'll just keep my trap shut.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-01-12 02:03am

Hmmm Death Star jumps in ...blasts Arrakis to hell and gone War over when spice runs out

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-01-12 02:58am

Frank Hipper wrote:This thing could also depend on who's in power.
Paul Atreides had perfect prescience, to the point that when he lost his eyesight he could put his signature on a piece of paper and slap it in back into someone's hand, all through precognition. A trivial example when we're talking universe vs universe, but indicative.
Wouldn't it stand to reason that he would know all plans of attack ahead of time?
Would technological and firepower superiority count against infallible, and complete intellegence of an enemy's plans?

If we're talking a Corrino, *cues Imperial March*

All the intel in the world wont help....

"I am getting a vision of what is to come.....ahh....ohh......SHIT!!!!!"

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-12 03:33am

Frank Hipper wrote:This thing could also depend on who's in power.
Paul Atreides had perfect prescience, to the point that when he lost his eyesight he could put his signature on a piece of paper and slap it in back into someone's hand, all through precognition. A trivial example when we're talking universe vs universe, but indicative.
Wouldn't it stand to reason that he would know all plans of attack ahead of time?
Would technological and firepower superiority count against infallible, and complete intellegence of an enemy's plans?

If we're talking a Corrino, *cues Imperial March*

The Japanese knew about most major B-29 raids a couple hours in advance, and always had fairly significant warning, 45 minutes or more. That didn't stop the Superfortresses from burning Tokyo, Kobe, Nagoya and fifty-seven other cites to the ground. Nor did it prevent another two from being nuke or countless factories or railway marshaling yards from being bombed into rubble and debris.

The reason was Japan had almost no fighters, which could intercept the B-29, and its few AA guns could not reach them. Its much the same in this fight, only America has replaced its B-29's with B-1B's loaded with 200 kiloton SRAM's and Japan has WW1 Spad's. Information with not change the massive disparity in combat power.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-01-12 03:43am

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote:This thing could also depend on who's in power.
Paul Atreides had perfect prescience, to the point that when he lost his eyesight he could put his signature on a piece of paper and slap it in back into someone's hand, all through precognition. A trivial example when we're talking universe vs universe, but indicative.
Wouldn't it stand to reason that he would know all plans of attack ahead of time?
Would technological and firepower superiority count against infallible, and complete intellegence of an enemy's plans?

If we're talking a Corrino, *cues Imperial March*
The Japanese knew about most major B-29 raids a couple hours in advance, and always had fairly significant warning, 45 minutes or more. That didn't stop the Superfortresses from burning Tokyo, Kobe, Nagoya and fifty-seven other cites to the ground. Nor did it prevent another two from being nuke or countless factories or railway marshaling yards from being bombed into rubble and debris.

The reason was Japan had almost no fighters, which could intercept the B-29, and its few AA guns could not reach them. Its much the same in this fight, only America has replaced its B-29's with B-1B's loaded with 200 kiloton SRAM's and Japan has WW1 Spad's. Information with not change the massive disparity in combat power.

This is a ground forces only deal, remember? And read my previous post to know how I voted in the poll. Undying love for Dune will make me defend it any way I can, but my walls of ignorance are knee-high, at best!

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-01-12 09:07am

Typhonis 1 wrote:Hmmm Death Star jumps in ...blasts Arrakis to hell and gone War over when spice runs out

What part of No air/Space support did u miss?

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Empire -v- Landsrad ALL OUT GROUND WAR

Who wins

Empire -v- Landsrad ALL OUT GROUND WAR