Q's powers.. overrated?

John Clarke · Post by **John Clarke** » 2002-07-05 03:24pm

True enough. But Q does the same without benefit of machinery. Also, there is the case of Amanda Rogers, the Q who was raised as a human. She had no knowledge of any technology for these powers and yet was able to use same powers, which is why Q became involved with her situation.

However, there are official ST materials which intimate that Trelayne and his parents (TOS:The Squire of Gothos) were members of the Q Continuum, which suggests 2 things.

1: Occasionally, Q young may need machinery to act as "training wheels" for their abilities.

2: The Q are intrinsically not subject to time. I say this because the son of Q (TNG) was the first child born in the Continuum for aeons. However, Trelayne may have been born AFTER Q's son, thus demonstrating conclusively that the Q are not bound by linear time.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-07-05 03:26pm

John Clarke wrote:True enough. But Q does the same without benefit of machinery. Also, there is the case of Amanda Rogers, the Q who was raised as a human. She had no knowledge of any technology for these powers and yet was able to use same powers, which is why Q became involved with her situation.

However, there are official ST materials which intimate that Trelayne and his parents (TOS:The Squire of Gothos) were members of the Q Continuum, which suggests 2 things.

1: Occasionally, Q young may need machinery to act as "training wheels" for their abilities.

2: The Q are intrinsically not subject to time. I say this because the son of Q (TNG) was the first child born in the Continuum for aeons. However, Trelayne may have been born AFTER Q's son, thus demonstrating conclusively that the Q are not bound by linear time.

...Or that Trelane is eons old and a kid is a lot older.

They may not use tech but they're not onipitent [dying]

John Clarke · Post by **John Clarke** » 2002-07-05 03:30pm

If you're referring to dying as in from old age, it's unlikely. That's why they're so BORED, they can't die of normal causes. If you say dying of BOREDOM, that appears to be correct, hence the war. As far as being able to kill each other, well there you have a paradox...

Suppose God wants to kill himself. He's immortal, so he can't die. But he's omnipotent, so he can do whatever he wants, including die, but he's immortal, so...

At some point, the viewers demand a plot, and so the writer becomes more powerful even than God, by deciding, finally, His fate. Ooh, that's quotable. lol

BrianDavion · Post by **BrianDavion** » 2002-07-05 03:44pm

the time travel in all good things I always saw as Q mesing with Picards head and essentially projecting illusions into his brain.. basicly giving him dreams.. we never saw any major physical effects from it.. indeed when Picard was blown up in all 3 realities he WASN'T killed

BrianDavion · Post by **BrianDavion** » 2002-07-05 03:46pm

you thought I just had.. Q is so intrested in humankind evolving right? if the SW galaxy invaded.. who is to say he'd support the federation? The Force is something he'd certinly enchourage

John Clarke · Post by **John Clarke** » 2002-07-05 03:50pm

Who's to say? Well, he wants Humanity to evolve. What was his big gripe against Humanity in Encounter at Farpoint. We're savage. Warlike. In Q's eyes, the Federation would no doubt appear to be more "evolved" in that sense than the Empire, and Q would not in any way allow the Empire to win against the Feds.

Example? By all rights, the Borg SHOULD have beaten the Federation. The Dominion SHOULD have beaten the Federation. Why didn't they? Is Starfleet staffed with so many brilliant tacticians that they won through cleverness? Is Starfleet technology so advanced? No. The deck was stacked. And the only one who could do that kind of stacking is Q.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-07-05 03:51pm

John Clarke wrote:Who's to say? Well, he wants Humanity to evolve. What was his big gripe against Humanity in Encounter at Farpoint. We're savage. Warlike. In Q's eyes, the Federation would no doubt appear to be more "evolved" in that sense than the Empire, and Q would not in any way allow the Empire to win against the Feds.

Example? By all rights, the Borg SHOULD have beaten the Federation. The Dominion SHOULD have beaten the Federation. Why didn't they? Is Starfleet staffed with so many brilliant tacticians that they won through cleverness? Is Starfleet technology so advanced? No. The deck was stacked. And the only one who could do that kind of stacking is Q.

WRONG! The Borg lost because of Picard. The Dominion Lost because of Sisko. The Borg ATTACKED because of Q.

John Clarke · Post by **John Clarke** » 2002-07-05 03:55pm

And why did Q put the Enterprise in the path of the Borg, again? Hmm? To prepare them for what was in store for them. To give them a head start. The Borg were already headed in their direction, remember?

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-07-05 05:31pm

Causing someone to experience time travel is not possible with transporters or holograms.

Why not? The Feds do it all the time in their holodecks. All Q needs to do is miniaturize the technology, and bam, he's got a higher-end model of a mobile emitter.

Then you muddle around with someone's senses, maybe cancel out the noise from the ship, and blammo... suddenly, the Enterprise crew thinks they're Robin Hood and his Merry Men ("I am NOT a merry man!"), but in reality they never left the bridge.

Hey, it's a possibility. And it'd explain both why Q was decked when Sisko punched him, and why Q seems to have been getting older and older over the years.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-05 06:19pm

As we are trying to say Q could be nothing more than Smoke and Mirrows

Needed Technology
Advanced Teleportation
Advanced Holo-projection(Portable)
A bit of Mind Wonking ability(Or just alot of Mind wonking ability and forget 1 and 2)

Atlas3060 · Post by **Atlas3060** » 2002-07-05 06:45pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
Atlas3060 wrote:Being Q is great
He's never late
he dont rise in debate
he never procrastinates
Itttttsss Greeeeeaaaaattttttt!
Being Q is just grand!
even in strange lands
He's got the upper hand
Like a shiny one man band
Iiiiiiitttttttsssss Grrrrraaaaannnnnndddddd!
Atlas, isn't it about this time of year your head goes back to the lab for retuning?

Dude, its from Spock vs Q. So dont worry Im not insane, well not the type you guys know of.

Bryan · Post by **Bryan** » 2002-07-05 07:44pm

SPOOFE wrote:
Causing someone to experience time travel is not possible with transporters or holograms.
Why not? The Feds do it all the time in their holodecks. All Q needs to do is miniaturize the technology, and bam, he's got a higher-end model of a mobile emitter.

Then you muddle around with someone's senses, maybe cancel out the noise from the ship, and blammo... suddenly, the Enterprise crew thinks they're Robin Hood and his Merry Men ("I am NOT a merry man!"), but in reality they never left the bridge.

Hey, it's a possibility. And it'd explain both why Q was decked when Sisko punched him, and why Q seems to have been getting older and older over the years.

From what we know of the Q that's speculation without any proof. Maybe if there was some instance where the Q mentioned something about technology...

And you wanna know why Q is getting older? BECUASE JOHN DELANCEY, the ****ACTOR*** WHO PROTRAYS HIM IS GETTING OLDER!

Bryan · Post by **Bryan** » 2002-07-05 07:45pm

Damn where's the edit button, I spelt portray wrong

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2002-07-06 03:27am

Isn't one of the most fundamental principles of science the assumption that the simplest explanation is the most likely? We see Q doing all sorts of amazing things. We see Riker doing some pretty amazing things when Q tries to recruit him, and he never mentions anything about technology. We see the little girl Q doing some amazing things, and as someone else pointed out, she had no knowledge of any Q machinery when she brought her pet to the ship. Now, we could assume that all of this is done by machines, but what amazing machines they must be! They can create perfect illusions, affect the mind, rewrite or fool sensors and clocks, and transport huge masses huge distances. Remember the episode where Q was punished and made human? There was a huge cloud like creature after him, and when he regained his powers he made the being appear in his hand, then he sent back where it came from (or so he said). This was not just an illusion, because the being disappeared from the Enterprise's sensors, and it ceased its attacks. Maybe all of this was done with machines, but is it not just simpler to assume that Q really has these powers. That does not necessarily make him omnipotent, but at least very powerful. If we decide that he is just a clever magician, then perhaps the Emperor is as well. Maybe that lightning trick is just some carefully concealed weapon.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-07-06 06:54am

From what we know of the Q that's speculation without any proof.

And that's what this thread is about... speculating on how his powers can be emulated.

And you wanna know why Q is getting older? BECUASE JOHN DELANCEY, the ****ACTOR*** WHO PROTRAYS HIM IS GETTING OLDER!

Gee whiz, REALLY?!? I thought that Star Trek was real, and that Q really was omnipotent, and that Picard's resemblance to Patrick Stewart was just coincidence!

Yeesh. You, sir, need to undilate that sphincter and remove that pole.

Maybe all of this was done with machines, but is it not just simpler to assume that Q really has these powers.

Umm...

Err...

Possibility 1: A being with unexplained (and unexplainable) godlike powers that can alter and distort reality at a whim, that can perceive time in femtoseconds or eons at will, and can move back and forth between dimensions, yet is knocked cold by a simple punch from a simple human, wants to mate with the ugliest female in all of Starfleet's history, and, for some reason, is afraid of the Borg.

Possibility 2: He's just some shmoe with a few nifty toys.

Which one is simpler?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-06 08:19am

Ochums razer SPOOFE

Like I said before
Either a little bit of mind altering ability(For the time travel bits) plus advanced Teleportation and Protable Holo-gens

OR he's a good like superbeing and their are a whole race of them

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-07-06 10:00pm

The thing is, Mr. Bean, that we've seen such examples of technology being used in godlike manner throughout the series. Hell, the Voth's technology could probably do it.

Granted, we've also seen supernatural powers thrown about the ST galaxy. But I fail to see how "This guy is omnipotent!" is any more credible than "This guy has some advanced technology!"

Q · Post by Q » 2002-07-06 10:45pm

SPOOFE wrote:The thing is, Mr. Bean, that we've seen such examples of technology being used in godlike manner throughout the series. Hell, the Voth's technology could probably do it.

Granted, we've also seen supernatural powers thrown about the ST galaxy. But I fail to see how "This guy is omnipotent!" is any more credible than "This guy has some advanced technology!"

Wait, you think the Voth can duplicate a Q's actions?

The Voth may be technologically advanced but they are nowhere near duplicating even one of Q's smallest actions.

The razor dictates that Q is omnipotent, as stated in canon. Making up unproven statements that you can't back up in any way are easily cut off by that very razor in favor of the canon that says all Q are omnipotent.

You fail to see how omnipotence is more credible than technology? How about the fact that the Q are stated to be omnipotent and not using some advanced technology? Credibility has its roots in the facts we are presented, which state that Q is omnipotent and not using some advanced technology. You could easily do the same thing with the Force. For all you know, Vader is using holograms to choke people. Imagine a hologram of Vader standing there while the real Vader is choking the person while using some elaborate cloaking device. Imagine the Force lightning as a holographic projection while the Emperor is using that same cloaking device and a pair of common stunguns. Now do you see how foolish your claim is?

If anything, you appear to be a common Warsie who doesn't like that Star Trek is superior in at least one way. That's almost as bad as claiming that Q's powers are even remotely connected to the Force. Trying to attribute characteristics of one character in Star Trek to something from Star Wars is just plain foolish.

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2002-07-06 10:51pm

Ah but can Q make a rock that he cannot lift if he is truly omnipotent? Oh and I mean standing on the ground with gravity cannot lift it, no in space or shit.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-06 10:58pm

Let me answer Mini Q here
Now then Q if that is your real letter

Which is more likley
There is an old guy who likes to bother people and has some pretty advanced techonolgy behind him he uses to annoy people

OR
There are a race of hyper advanced super dooper evovled beings running around the Galaxy?

Don't try and twist Ochums razor around your simply slashing your own throat to use a bad anaolgly

Also your example is flawed
Vadar could be using anything from Trator Beam gloves (:D) to the above holo idea, He however is not claiming god like omnipotents which is rather alot more than a guy with Telekenieses who happens to enjoy choaking peoeple

Heck we have modern day evidance for people with Telekenesis(Abit veeeery small ability to move things(See Oxfords 1978 I think maybe 79 Study of Mental powers using random number generators and waterfalls)

But I stary abit
Don't twist Ochums razer like that, its a bad as the creationist that think Ochums razer supports Creationism

Q · Post by Q » 2002-07-06 11:36pm

Mr Bean wrote:Let me answer Mini Q here
Now then Q if that is your real letter

Which is more likley
There is an old guy who likes to bother people and has some pretty advanced techonolgy behind him he uses to annoy people

OR
There are a race of hyper advanced super dooper evovled beings running around the Galaxy?

Don't try and twist Ochums razor around your simply slashing your own throat to use a bad anaolgly

Also your example is flawed
Vadar could be using anything from Trator Beam gloves (:D) to the above holo idea, He however is not claiming god like omnipotents which is rather alot more than a guy with Telekenieses who happens to enjoy choaking peoeple

Heck we have modern day evidance for people with Telekenesis(Abit veeeery small ability to move things(See Oxfords 1978 I think maybe 79 Study of Mental powers using random number generators and waterfalls)

But I stary abit
Don't twist Ochums razer like that, its a bad as the creationist that think Ochums razer supports Creationism

Alright insigificant sprout, you want more.

Besides the fact that your explanation has never ever been even hinted at and is rather ridiculous I must go further? Fine.

1. Your explanation relies on technology never even been hinted at throughout TNG, DS9, or Voyager. A theory that doesn't fit the facts or uses information that doesn't exist simply can't be valid no matter how much you want it to be.

2. Q does more than mess with Picard. He just decided to mess with humanity because he was a rogue. Most Qs don't mess with other species, instead act as guardians of the galaxy. I believe Q's son and Janeway were talking about the role of a Q in the galaxy and that was one of their roles. I remember Quinn spending part of his life on Earth doing that very thing. The whole thing with Newton, Riker, and the woodstock guy is an excellent example. The fact that the Q punish rogues like Quinn, Q, and Q's son is another example of the Qs responsibility and role in the galaxy. They were wreaking havok when they should have been keeping the galaxy safe. That was also demonstrated in The Q and the Grey, when the galaxy was thrown into chaos because of the Q civil war.

3. It doesn't matter if Vader claims omnipotence because I was describing how the Force can be nothing but smoke and mirrors, which is exactly what you are trying to do with Q's powers. Think before answering next time.

4. You compare me to creationists?!?:evil:
If you went any lower you would hit Yoda's balls...

Johonebesus · Post by **Johonebesus** » 2002-07-06 11:46pm

Possibility 1: A being with unexplained (and unexplainable) godlike powers that can alter and distort reality at a whim, that can perceive time in femtoseconds or eons at will, and can move back and forth between dimensions, yet is knocked cold by a simple punch from a simple human, wants to mate with the ugliest female in all of Starfleet's history, and, for some reason, is afraid of the Borg.

Possibility 2: He's just some shmoe with a few nifty toys.

Which one is simpler?

Well, given the few peices of evidence that I gave before (I was the guest with the long rambling post), and the fact that Q's machines must also be completely undetectable and leave no after effects that can be detected, despite what must be huge energy usages, I think #1 is more likely. Now, if you can explain how that little girl used these machines unknowingly, or why Riker used these machines but never mentioned it, then I may reconsider. but it does seem to me a bit of a stretch to try to create elaborate explanations describing nearly incredible machines rather than just to accept what we are told and shown.

Johonebesus · Post by **Johonebesus** » 2002-07-06 11:58pm

And I suppose it really depends on one's world view, what one is prepared to believe. I recall reading an anthology by Koontz. Almost all the stories had something to do with psychic powers, yet the author insisted that only one was supernatural. Evidently he classifies telekinesis and clairvoyance as SF rather than fantasy. Then look at the phenomenon of night paralysis. In olden times people interpreted such events as demonic visitations, now people dream of alien abductions. As regards Q:

Possibility 1: Since we know 99.99% of what there is to know about the universe (unlike those fools a hundred years ago who were about to write The Physics Text before Planck and Einstein published), we can be certain that there is nothing that is truly beyond our understanding, and so if our current science and natural abilities lead us to assume that "magical powers" must be illusions and the product of technology, no matter how mind boggling the technology must be, technology it must be.

Possibility 2: In the 15,000,000,000 years since the creation, at least one race of sentient beings somewhere in our immense cosmos developed abilities to manipulate reality in ways we cannot (yet) conceive, which is not so surprising considering that we have only had science for a couple of centuries.

As I said, I guess it depends on your perspective. For me, saying that machines of such incredible power as Q's would have to be with such odd characteristics are more plausible than a being with natural "godlike" powers is kind of silly. Both seem pretty far-fetched to me, and I am not personally inclined to doubt something just because it does not make much sense by our current science (at least when considering science fiction). If I can accept FTL travel, transporters, hundreds of e.t. life forms that are almost perfectly humanoid, and microscopic parasites that connect people to a cosmic "force" that grants them powers such as telekinesis, clairvoyance, precognition, and the ability to shoot energy from their hands, then I guess I can accept a seemingly omnipotent being. In fact, of the possibilities listed above, I think Q ranks as the second most plausible, perhaps after FTL travel. I would sooner expect a being like Q to evolve that a creature like Yoda, whose race evolved completely separately from humans, yet has a rather terrestrial body plan: four limbs, two eyes, two ears, one mouth, a nose with two nostrils, etc.

By the way, I do not recall Q ever being afraid of the Borg.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2002-07-07 01:34am

Here is a scary though.

If the Q are guardains of the st galaxy.....

What could they be guardains against?

Thier purpose in and of itself suggests to me that Q is not an omnipotent being. They are advanced indeed, but apperently not unique. If their are other races equal to Q, than by the very diffination of omnipotent, he isn't one.

Also we really haven't seen Q do one thing that hasn't been done by somebody else. Even if it's done alot easier by him than the other person in question.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-07-07 02:50am

Wait, you think the Voth can duplicate a Q's actions?

Name one thing that Q has done that the Voth couldn't create a facsimile of.