Rebels: Terrorists or Freedom Fighters (Battle of Endor too)

[Knife]

And I should hardly need to point out the New Republic actually ruled for less time than the Empire.

Actually that's incorrect. The NR was in place over twenty years when it was destroyed by the Vong war and replaced with the GFFA. The Empire lasted just less than that and IIRC it was Palleon himself in one of the Vong books that admonished one of his people telling them that they (refering to the NR) had ruled the galaxy longer than they (refering to imperials) had.

[Warsie]

Hmmm...

everyone now that you mention Alderaan would you say it was justified?

EDIT: and the Imperial Senate being permanently dissolved. Wasn't it brought back into use around by the battle of Hoth based off Marvel Star Wars.

EDIT 2: Isolder74, him being secluded from what some Imperials did is supported by the Episode IV novelization

[Noble Ire]

everyone now that you mention Alderaan would you say it was justified?

Justified? Tarkin destroyed an esteemed, well-known world with a population of billions at best as a fear tactic and at worst simply to assuage his own ego at being unable to derive the location of the Alliance headquarters from Princess Leia. Not even TC Pilot has suggested that the act was justified.

[Jaevric]

Hmmm...

everyone now that you mention Alderaan would you say it was justified?

Noble Ire's response was accurate. You'll also note that, according to the EU, Alderaan had completely disarmed after the Clone Wars. It had a planetary shield, and presumably a police force, but no military--which may mean no heavy weapons or starships beyond those needed to handle the occasional pirate or smuggler coming through the system.

Alderaan's anti-Imperial activities were limited to funding Rebel cells and providing some manpower. Even then, it wasn't as if the planet's population was in open rebellion; rather, the ruling family and their allies were operating against the Empire. I've never seen anything to suggest that even a majority of the planet's population were Rebel sympathizers.

Tarkin destroyed a planet and slaughtered billions of unarmed, defenseless people for an ego trip and to be able to wave the Death Star in the galaxy's face and say "Look at me! Aren't I scary?"

There are a few situations which would justify the use of something like the Death Star. An entire planet in open revolt, with a sufficiently strong planetary shield and defense force to make traditional naval operations impossible would be one of them. Arguably, using the Death Star in this case would be a valid military decision. Even then, however, you may be talking about killing billions of people, many of whom were Imperial loyalists or noncombatants. It would be the nuking of Hirsohima and Nagasaki increased by orders of magnitude.

Another would be an otherwise-uninhabited (preferably uninhabitable) planet with a heavily-defended enemy base. This would be just about the only time using the Death Star is a completely justified military decision--no non-combatants involved.

[Starglider]

There are a few situations which would justify the use of something like the Death Star. An entire planet in open revolt, with a sufficiently strong planetary shield and defense force to make traditional naval operations impossible would be one of them. Arguably, using the Death Star in this case would be a valid military decision. Even then, however, you may be talking about killing billions of people, many of whom were Imperial loyalists or noncombatants. It would be the nuking of Hirsohima and Nagasaki increased by orders of magnitude.

By that logic ('I refuse to accept major civilian casualties') there is no military case for ICBMs or strategic bombing in general. Consider the Clone Wars - if either side had a death star available to them, they could have gone from system to system destroying key industrial worlds with very little to stop them. This would probably have brought about a pretty quick end to the war, assuming no bad luck involving thermal exhaust ports. Any military commander who accepts the doctrine of total war (which is just about anyone post early 20th century) would authorise this immediately. The death star actually has an advantage over an ICBM or even a nuclear bomber here in that targetted planets can realistically surrender to it (assuming it carries enough troops to garrison a typical SW planet), so total destruction is not the only option.

[Connor MacLeod]

Actually that's incorrect. The NR was in place over twenty years when it was destroyed by the Vong war and replaced with the GFFA. The Empire lasted just less than that and IIRC it was Palleon himself in one of the Vong books that admonished one of his people telling them that they (refering to the NR) had ruled the galaxy longer than they (refering to imperials) had.

What? We have a roughly twenty year timeframe for the Empire between ROTS and ANH alone. Nevermind the 4-5 year period covering the prequels or the six year or so period up til Dark Empire (which officially marked the end of Palpatine's reign.) The Empire arguably could have "ruled" longer depending on how you define it (see Domus PublicA) but it wasn't the Empire we know of from the movies.

The NR was active for a total of twenty years or so and went through at least collapse and several fluctuations in size (one of the low points being the black Fleet Crisis era, where it numbered only some 11,000 worlds/systems/members. Even by the Hand of Thrawn era, they were only around 120,000 systems/members/worlds.)

[Knife]

I'm pretty sure of the quote from Palleon. I don't actually own the NJO books though so I might have to do some searching on the interweb to find it.


Edit. According to wookie (so with a grain of salt) NJO took place 25-30 years after the Battle of Yavin. The fall of Coruscant to the NR was ~7 years after Battle of Yavin, so at max, the Empire ruled for ~27 years if Luke was 20 at the time. So that would make the NR ~23ish years old.

But that's from the fall of Coruscant to the rebels. You could say the Empire stopped being the Empire at Endor....how ever it seems they were both roughly the same, if not the Empire a bit longer so I guess I conceed. Still looking for that quote though.

[TC Pilot]

Actually that's incorrect. The NR was in place over twenty years when it was destroyed by the Vong war and replaced with the GFFA. The Empire lasted just less than that and IIRC it was Palleon himself in one of the Vong books that admonished one of his people telling them that they (refering to the NR) had ruled the galaxy longer than they (refering to imperials) had.

The Empire was ruled by Palpatine for approximately twenty-four year and continued to be the legitimate ruling body until the fall of Coruscant. The New Republic was subsequently dissolved six years after the Battle of Endor as a result of the catastrophic territorial lose suffered during Operation Shadowhan and reformed once more after the Reborn Emperor's final death and the destruction of Byss.

everyone now that you mention Alderaan would you say it was justified?

It depends on your point of view, or rather whether you believe a leader's actions hold a whole institution or organization culpable.

[Warsie]

Justified? Tarkin destroyed an esteemed, well-known world with a population of billions at best as a fear tactic and at worst simply to assuage his own ego at being unable to derive the location of the Alliance headquarters from Princess Leia. Not even TC Pilot has suggested that the act was justified.

Actually he (and many Imperials) knew that Alderaan was supporting the Alliance heavily. The rumors and reports of Alderaan supporting Rebels was large enough to the point that even the 501st legion knew of it.

Noble Ire's response was accurate. You'll also note that, according to the EU, Alderaan had completely disarmed after the Clone Wars. It had a planetary shield, and presumably a police force, but no military--which may mean no heavy weapons or starships beyond those needed to handle the occasional pirate or smuggler coming through the system.

They were remilitarizing actually, the sources are mentioned in the link. They were buying new ships from KDY.

And there was a Rebel Fleet over Alderaan at the time of its' destruction (Empire At War).

http://www.galacticempiredatabank.com/RebProLies.html

Alderaan's anti-Imperial activities were limited to funding Rebel cells and providing some manpower. Even then, it wasn't as if the planet's population was in open rebellion; rather, the ruling family and their allies were operating against the Empire. I've never seen anything to suggest that even a majority of the planet's population were Rebel sympathizers.

Given Alderaan was a constutional monarchy it does seem as if that seems hard; as soon as the Empire formed there were massive anti-imperial protests (Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader) and Alderaan supported it. a decent portion of Alderaanians supported the Alliance; and popular support on the world was high to the point that the Alderaanian Royal Guard had no problem going up to houses and such and informing the family that their father died in service to the Alliance without problems with informants (one of the Wraith Squadron books; the guy who panicked due to the larger convoy defense and Janson had to shoot him)

The democratic process guarantees that the nobility would be accountable to the people; if the people wanted to do that it happened.

Tarkin destroyed a planet and slaughtered billions of unarmed, defenseless people for an ego trip and to be able to wave the Death Star in the galaxy's face and say "Look at me! Aren't I scary?"

There was a Rebel Fleet over the world defending it (Empire At War)

But man you phrased it so damn funny...LOL.

But Alderaan was remilitarizing.

Direct Quote
"The Emperor had already shown his disregard for maintaining the galaxy's customer base, by sanctioning the late Governor Tarkin's destruction of the planet Alderaan with the massive firepower of the original Death Star. That had personally rankled Kuat; there had been an outstanding contract with the local government on Alderaan for a utility fleet of perimeter observation scouts and orbital customs stations, all to be furnished at a considerable profit by Kuat Drive Yards. The units had been just about ready to leave the KDY construction docks and head off in a delivery flotilla to Alderaan when the word of their destination being reduced to a few charred ashes drifting in navigable space had reached Kuat of Kuat. A near-total write-down for the corporation, salvageable only in part by breaking up the undelivered vessels and recycling some of their components into the next order for Imperial battle cruisers."\

Saxton says:
"Superficially, the text would imply small scout craft, in keeping with Alderaan's pacifist pretensions, however the fact that components were usefully reincorporated into Imperial battlecruisers indicates that these vessels were effective naval hardware. They may have been formidable warships, part of the covert re-armament program alluded to in the Star Wars Encyclopedia and elsewhere. At the very least, the fact that they were capable of independent interstellar flight indicates something more versatile than the usual kind of system patrol craft. Their designation as "scouts" may have been duplicitous, intended to maintain Alderaan's illusion of peacability. "

http://theforce.net/swtc/novels/ss.html

There are a few situations which would justify the use of something like the Death Star. An entire planet in open revolt, with a sufficiently strong planetary shield and defense force to make traditional naval operations impossible would be one of them. Arguably, using the Death Star in this case would be a valid military decision. Even then, however, you may be talking about killing billions of people, many of whom were Imperial loyalists or noncombatants. It would be the nuking of Hirsohima and Nagasaki increased by orders of magnitude.

Another would be an otherwise-uninhabited (preferably uninhabitable) planet with a heavily-defended enemy base. This would be just about the only time using the Death Star is a completely justified military decision--no non-combatants involved.

k.

EDIT: no I'm not saying Alderaan was justified. It seems as many of you forgot these sources and information I mentioned.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

And there was a Rebel Fleet over Alderaan at the time of its' destruction (Empire At War).

I don't doubt that Alderaan had some major part in assisting the Rebel Alliance but using Empire At War as a reference is a shitty way of cataloging what happened during the destruction of Alderaan. ANH clearly shows the Death Star by itself orbiting the planet moments before it fired its superlaser.

[Sarevok]

I don't doubt that Alderaan had some major part in assisting the Rebel Alliance but using Empire At War as a reference is a shitty way of cataloging what happened during the destruction of Alderaan. ANH clearly shows the Death Star by itself orbiting the planet moments before it fired its superlaser.

You dont see any ships around Coruscant in Episode 1 either despite being the capital of the galaxy. Space around a planet is vast. Starships would not be visible unless they were literaly at point blank range to death star.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

You dont see any ships around Coruscant in Episode 1 either despite being the capital of the galaxy. Space around a planet is vast. Starships would not be visible unless they were literaly at point blank range to death star.

Sure, but there isn't any other source that implies that there was an overt rebel military presence during the destruction of Alderaan. That plot line involving Rebel ships attacking the Death Star was obviously put in the game to introduce the player to using the Death Star in the game. If we take such blatantly contrived scenarios in video games as canon, we might as well assume that Anakin Skywalker fought buzz droids in the elevator shaft of the Invisible Hand in ROTS.

[Darth Ruinus]

If we take such blatantly contrived scenarios in video games as canon, we might as well assume that Anakin Skywalker fought buzz droids in the elevator shaft of the Invisible Hand in ROTS.

Isnt that different though?

In ROTS we see that there is no time at all for that to occur, thus, the movies override the game.

However, the Rebel fleet could have been... I dont know, hiding or something. Hell, maybe the Imperials didnt care if they saw the Death Star, if one of the ships left and informed the Rebellion, psychological terror comes into play.

Rebels arrive at secret Rebel base:
"Dudes, I was just at Alderaan when this big space station came out of no where! We came here to warn you guys!"
"Lets go check it out."
They arrive at what was once Alderaan:
"Holy shit."

Or something like that.

[Warsie]

I don't doubt that Alderaan had some major part in assisting the Rebel Alliance but using Empire At War as a reference is a shitty way of cataloging what happened during the destruction of Alderaan. ANH clearly shows the Death Star by itself orbiting the planet moments before it fired its superlaser.

The Rebel Fleet was engaged by the Empire in a closer orbit to Alderaan; it could be fought on the other side of the world. The Rebel Fleet never attacks the Death Star.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

In ROTS we see that there is no time at all for that to occur, thus, the movies override the game.

You could always rationalize that the screen time in movies are not to scale. You could say that there may have been a significant time frame the movie omitted between the moment Anakin jumped out of the elevator and when R2 dropped the elevator. It just sounds like a bastardized way of trying to fit what was obviously a contrived scenario for the purposes of the game into the rest of Star Wars continuity.

However, the Rebel fleet could have been... I dont know, hiding or something. Hell, maybe the Imperials didnt care if they saw the Death Star, if one of the ships left and informed the Rebellion, psychological terror comes into play.

Rebels arrive at secret Rebel base:
"Dudes, I was just at Alderaan when this big space station came out of no where! We came here to warn you guys!"
"Lets go check it out."
They arrive at what was once Alderaan:
"Holy shit."

Or something like that.

See above. No other source even implies there was a rebel presence in orbit over Alderaan. Isn't it obvious the game developers wanted to introduce the Death Star to the player? Are we now going to take every video game that implicitly contradicts the movie and retcon everything?

The Rebel Fleet was engaged by the Empire in a closer orbit to Alderaan; it could be fought on the other side of the world. The Rebel Fleet never attacks the Death Star.

And you have a source for this other than a single level of a video game? This isn't the first time you've tried to horribly retcon Star Wars events with video games much like the time you did that with the Battle of Yavin. It's fucking retarded.

[Warsie]

And you have a source for this other than a single level of a video game? This isn't the first time you've tried to horribly retcon Star Wars events with video games much like the time you did that with the Battle of Yavin. It's fucking retarded.

But it's not directly contradicted by anything higher-up, correct? That makes it a legitimate part of the action.

[Crazedwraith]

Well I think Tarkin would have rather balked at the idea of Alderann having no weapons if there was a Rebel Fleet there.

Remember: "You have another target? A military Target? Then name the System!"

Tarkin didn't consider Alderaan to be a military target. If there had been a Rebel fleet there. I think he would have.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

But it's not directly contradicted by anything higher-up, correct? That makes it a legitimate part of the action.

Anakin fighting buzz droids in the elevator shaft of the Invisible Hand isn't directly contradicted by anything higher-up either. Should we assume he had a skirmish with them before R2 dropped the elevator?

All other sources imply there was no military presence on Alderaan. By using video games solely as a source for continuity, you not only bastardly retcon continuity but you violate Occam's Razor as well. Games (unless supported by other sources) do not define Star Wars canon, mmkay?

[Darth Ruinus]

Games (unless supported by other sources) do not define Star Wars canon, mmkay?

Ah, I was not aware of that part. Ok nvm then.

[Warsie]

Anakin fighting buzz droids in the elevator shaft of the Invisible Hand isn't directly contradicted by anything higher-up either. Should we assume he had a skirmish with them before R2 dropped the elevator?

If it fits in, then it must be accepted. Yes.

All other sources imply there was no military presence on Alderaan.

fine. One of the X-wing books mentions Wedge Antilles allowign one of his friends to get a mission which basically was escort an Alliance Corvette to Alderaan. I'd call that a military presence. Given the book is from an Alliance/New Republic perspective it's safe to say there was more (propaganda value: Alderaan was a peaceful world, no weapons...,NOT!)

EDIT: Again, I also bring you the example of the guy Janson killed in the X-wing novels. Alliance/Alderaanian Honor Guard went to his family's house without any fear of being ratted out.

By using video games solely as a source for continuity, you not only bastardly retcon continuity but you violate Occam's Razor as well. Games (unless supported by other sources) do not define Star Wars canon, mmkay?

It's actually unless games are contradicted b higher sources they are official. That's the canon hierachy.

Well I think Tarkin would have rather balked at the idea of Alderann having no weapons if there was a Rebel Fleet there.

Remember: "You have another target? A military Target? Then name the System!"

Tarkin didn't consider Alderaan to be a military target. If there had been a Rebel fleet there. I think he would have.

He was playing along with Leia in that game to save her world?

[Dark Flame]

Just a question:

fine. One of the X-wing books mentions Wedge Antilles allowign one of his friends to get a mission which basically was escort an Alliance Corvette to Alderaan. I'd call that a military presence. Given the book is from an Alliance/New Republic perspective it's safe to say there was more (propaganda value: Alderaan was a peaceful world, no weapons...,NOT!)

How long did the corvette stay? If it wasn't there for long, then nobody may have discovered it, and it could have been gone long before the DS showed up.

And I wouldn't call one corvette a military presence. It could have simply been a transport ship or something like that.

[Warsie]

Just a question:

How long did the corvette stay? If it wasn't there for long, then nobody may have discovered it, and it could have been gone long before the DS showed up.

And I wouldn't call one corvette a military presence. It could have simply been a transport ship or something like that.

The Corvette was at Alderaan when the DS arrived...and the X-wing series is from a NR perspective, the entire novel so Wedge may have said that to reinforce the "defenseless world was destroyed" propaganda the Alliance used so well.

[TC Pilot]

It's interesting to note the sheer hypocrisy of the New Republic regarding planetary destruction. Unlike the Empire, the New Republic had the chance to punish the man directly responsible for destroying the entire Caridan system yet did nothing.

[Warsie]

It's interesting to note the sheer hypocrisy of the New Republic regarding planetary destruction. Unlike the Empire, the New Republic had the chance to punish the man directly responsible for destroying the entire Caridan system yet did nothing.

heh...well, it wasn't like the NR blew up a world itself.

However, also the NR didn't punish many Imperials for War Crimes. Only Teshik and Lemisk were executed by the NR; many of the others got some jail time until the war ended and they were let free and some weren't messed with.

[TC Pilot]

heh...well, it wasn't like the NR blew up a world itself.

So as long as it's just a New Republic civilian, it's ok?

However, also the NR didn't punish many Imperials for War Crimes. Only Teshik and Lemisk were executed by the NR; many of the others got some jail time until the war ended and they were let free and some weren't messed with.

Actually, many Imperials had bounties placed on them for such ridiculous crimes as treason and destruction of property.

I have an example on hand, but I hesitate to post it as the image is comparatively huge.