Is Detoxification bullshit?

[kinnison]

kinnison is full of bullshit, but antibiotics can in some cases cause/worsen a fungal infection if they nuke the benign bacteria that's competing with the fungi for resources.

Really? <Does WebMD search> Huh, will you look at that -- thrush. Well, egg on my face then.

Well, well, someone who actually checked the facts.

Rather less well known is the fact (yes fact, checked by biopsies and stool cultures) that the same thing can and often does happen in the intestines, particularly the lower intestines. Antibiotics cause this imbalance by directly killing off the "friendly" bacteria keeping fungi in check; steroid drugs, including birth-control pills and HRT, cause it by disturbing the body's chemistry.

You may or may not know that in Germany, standard procedure is to give a course of probiotic bacteria following a course of antibiotics.

As for medical negligence - well, drug side effects kill tens of thousands per year; including known side effects of drugs given to patients despite known risk factors in particular cases. COX2 inhibitors are a case in point, as are statins - not proved to lower death risk, despite the obvious fact that they do indeed lower cholesterol.

Reason? Well, statins lower cholesterol (which despite the propaganda has never been shown, except in extreme cases, to have anything to do with heart disease risk - homocysteine is far more relevant) but they also drastically lower levels of coenzyme Q10, which in some cases can lead to congestive heart failure (potentially lethal) and other problems such as rhabdomyolysis. This problem can lead to kidney failure due to excess buildup of muscle-cell breakdown products. Lack of enough cholesterol in the bloodstream also leads to a depressed immune system and in some cases depression - which is also a potentially lethal condition.

In other words, even if you believe that cholesterol matters, all that you are doing is exchanging one set of risks for another, rather larger, set.

Doctors in the UK get bonuses for prescribing more statins. Despite the fact that my lipid profile is excellent (low triglycerides, average total cholesterol and much better than normal HDL/LDL ratio) I have been put under extreme pressure to take this filth, undoubtedly for this reason. I'm sure I am not the only one.

I am quite sure that American doctors get kickbacks for overprescribing, too. Who cares about the patient, anyway?

I could give similar stories about other drugs - but this post is long enough anyway.

[Hillary]

So before you bash doctors for all the problems of patients let me clue you in on something: any person who goes to a doctor expecting a magic pill and blaming the doctor for not giving one is a moron.

Indeed - these people then go to homeopathists who promise them exactly that.

[brianeyci]

You cannot claim that drugs kill tens of thousands a year with side effects without looking at how many lives they save or how many lives they make better. That is total bullshit, like saying roads kill tens of thousands a year and not counting the benefits of roads to society. Do pharmacies where you live give out a brochure and explain the side effects of drugs? I thought this was standard practise, not only for medical reasons but for marketing reasons. It's just good customer service, and if your pharmacy doesn't do it I suggest going to another one. All the big box pharmacies do it here.

As for HDL/LDL ratios, I am sorry but the Internet does not replace years of medical training. I am highly interested in your claim that doctors prescribe drugs for unnecessary reasons. If my mom's kidneys are going to fail due to unnecessary medicine, I would like to know. But unless you are a doctor, I have a hard time believing anything you say about bashing doctor's decisions. Gosh, it's as if research on wikipedia or looking at books in the library is all one needs for a medical degree .

Overprescription of antibiotics is a total bullshit claim in Western countries, because doctors are trained to know about drug resistance. But please, I would like to know what your definition of overprescription is, and whether it is synonmous to no prescription at all for all preventative cases which I strongly suspect. I suspect you believe that preventative prescription of antibiotics after surgery is bullshit.

[brianeyci]

So before you bash doctors for all the problems of patients let me clue you in on something: any person who goes to a doctor expecting a magic pill and blaming the doctor for not giving one is a moron.

Indeed - these people then go to homeopathists who promise them exactly that.

The thing that pisses me off the most about kinnison's posts is a lot of what she's saying fits in the no shit sherlock category. I've known since I was a child that taking drugs was all about exchanging one set of risks for another, and only the magnitude of risks mattered to me. I was terrified about taking pain killers as a kid because I heard of kidney failure, but when I read about the low chance of that happening I took them (with plenty of water of course.)

My mother's doctor explicitly mentioned that taking medication to lower blood pressure was necessary to prevent future organ failure due to high blood pressure. So whether this claim is true or not, overprescription of drugs to lower cholesterol, it fits in the no shit sherlock category too. No shit sherlock, if you go to the doctor you should expect drugs, and if you want to lower cholesterol a different way you can exercise. No shit sherlock it's worth repeating. It's the no duh category that drugs would kill tens of thousands a year. So does fucking human error in surgery. The only thing that matters is the magnitude of such risks and whether doctors correctly inform patients of these risks, and even if they don't, well they are the best qualified to gage these risks and tell a dumbass there's a 1% chance of crapout seems pointless because said dumbass will refuse to take the drug and have more of a chance to hurt himself.

And I do not like your attitude kinnison."Someone who actually checked the facts?" Is that some kind of passive aggressive snipe? What facts, and where? Checking the facts on the Internet is bullshit, I'd rather ask my doctor given the amount of crap flying around. I don't have to time to sift through what's legitimate and what's not in cyberspace especially on something as important as my health. Medicine is not the same as personal fitness. Looking on the Internet to see how to live healthy and do pushups is not the same as deciding what medication is good for you no matter what you think. You made the claim so you provide the evidence. If you accuse me of not checking the facts again I will take the proverbial gloves off.

It's as if you took all your knowledge from books like this kinnison. I have very little tolerance for bullshit alternative medicine that doesn't work, because I've wasted years of my life and don't want anybody to go through the placebo effect.

[PainRack]

Well, well, someone who actually checked the facts.

Rather less well known is the fact (yes fact, checked by biopsies and stool cultures) that the same thing can and often does happen in the intestines, particularly the lower intestines. Antibiotics cause this imbalance by directly killing off the "friendly" bacteria keeping fungi in check; steroid drugs, including birth-control pills and HRT, cause it by disturbing the body's chemistry.

P.S You still haven't shown that 95% of candidiasis is caused by antibiotics and steroids. While such abuse does lead to candidiasis, the usual iatrogenic cause is actually radiation/chemotherapy or immunosuppressive drugs. And in the general population, this occurs as a result of excessive douching, poor hygiene and excessive sex.

You may or may not know that in Germany, standard procedure is to give a course of probiotic bacteria following a course of antibiotics.

You may not know, but broad spectrum antibiotics, the one that cause the problems you cause isn't so heavily prescribed anymore. Of course, it still sees heavy use, especially as prophylactics but most cases of diarrhea as a result of antibiotics abuse actually occur after a week or longer.

As for medical negligence - well, drug side effects kill tens of thousands per year; including known side effects of drugs given to patients despite known risk factors in particular cases. COX2 inhibitors are a case in point, as are statins - not proved to lower death risk, despite the obvious fact that they do indeed lower cholesterol.

That's an odd definition of negligence, cause, prescribing drugs to treat a disease isn't considered as negligence, although failure to monitor for side effects is.

Reason? Well, statins lower cholesterol (which despite the propaganda has never been shown, except in extreme cases, to have anything to do with heart disease risk - homocysteine is far more relevant)

So, mind explaining why people with hyperlipidemia usually have a higher rate of heart attacks? You're right in that modern medical research suggests that its the inflamnation that counts more, but that's prescribing to too narrow a view, and twisting the research, cause....... hyperlipidemia tends to lead to such a problem when atherosclerosis occurs.

but they also drastically lower levels of coenzyme Q10, which in some cases can lead to congestive heart failure (potentially lethal) and other problems such as rhabdomyolysis. This problem can lead to kidney failure due to excess buildup of muscle-cell breakdown products. Lack of enough cholesterol in the bloodstream also leads to a depressed immune system and in some cases depression - which is also a potentially lethal condition.

And such risks have actually been listed in drug literature as well as medical journals. The problem is the slow rate of change (I believe there is a cheap, generic water based drug that offers some effectiveness but I'm not a pharmacists). As for lack of cholesterol, you got to be kidding me...... Lipitor is going to be so drastically effective at lowering the enyzme that causes your body to create cholesterol? And your body compensatory mechanisms isn't going to work?

So yes, you have found a legitimate problem, similar to how HRT prescription is a legitimate problem. However, none of this supports your claim that detoxification works.... Hell, how does toxins even increase cholesterol in the first place? And if not, how does detox, other than through changes in diet cause lower blood cholesterol? If your only argument is that a healthful diet will have good results, then good for you. But that's not what you seem to be advocating, you're advocating that the normal diet is full of "toxins" that's causing ill health, and removing these toxins will restore good health.

[PainRack]

Arghh... forgot to post this.


Statins aren't supposed to be prescribed until you have tried non pharmaceutical methods of lowering blood cholesterol. So, by all means, go complain to your doctor for his poor standards if the first thing he does is upon seeing a mildly elevated cholesterol level is prescribe drugs, instead of advocating exercise and a change in diet.

[PainRack]

And steroids? Look: the last time I went in to the hospital they prescribed codeine to me as a pain killer, but the nurse even encouraged me not to use it unless pain was excruciating.

Actually...... I read that for mild/moderate pain that interfere with your daily living, you should start taking the painkiller in the prescribed doses. I mean, its obviously depends on how your doctor prescribes it, but the word given when neccesary doesn't mean when the pain is excruiating. Rather, you should consume it when the pain is starting and is going to ramp up. Painkillers take time to take effect and combating the pain at an earlier stage saves you unneccesary pain later.

[brianeyci]

The thing is, taking pain killer for mild or moderate pain seems to me a cop out. Again it fits into the no shit sherlock category. I do not want to be dependent on a drug or a particular form of treatment for the rest of my life. There's many reasons from side effects to cost, but I don't want to forget to eat a pill and suddenly go through a terrible day without it. Physical treatment is another story. I have no problem with working out to get rid of pain, just that most of the time I'm way too lazy to do it. Maybe it's just bias against medicine, but I've always thought that people taking Tylenol every single day are just like people drinking coffee every day, living off a stimulant that will back end their problems.

I would only take painkillers for acute pain, or before an exam where I need to be 100%. I don't mind living most of my life at 50% or 60%. Unfortunately some people do not understand that certain things they may have to live with for the rest of their lives. That doesn't mean they shouldn't identify triggers or save medicine for critical times they need full alertness, and that especially means they should seek alternative treatment. But real alternative treatment, like going to a gym or making small changes to daily life like eating certain things and avoiding others or taking the escalator instead of the elevator or walking instead of driving.

If detoxification is just eating healthy and getting 20 minute walks a day for more exercise at least I'm all for it, but I've heard so much bullshit, everything from not eating seafood to not drinking tea to not eating bread that I don't think that's what the detox camp claims at all. More like they claim no shit sherlock things and make money off of it. It's one big money grubbing scam, and if kinnison makes a living out of placebo, she should be ashamed of herself since later on the problems will come out of remission.

[Rye]

Doctors in the UK get bonuses for prescribing more statins.

This is just a huge stinking lie. Doctors only get "bonuses" for taking on extra work (working at the PCT one day a week, for instance), drugs companies can't even take doctors out for meals anymore, the most they can do is give them freebie pens. The NHS frankly isn't funded enough to give GPs bonuses for prescriptions.

[Hillary]

<pretty obvious stuff that really shouldn't have needed to be said>

Of course, one of the most "no shit sherlock" things is that a Doctor with x years of medical training is more likely to be a better bet than a homeopathist who got his/her diploma free with 5 boxes of cornflakes (yes I know there are courses, but they barely scratch the surface of medical knowledge before the person is let loose on patients without supervision).

It all falls into the "drugs bad, natural good" viewpoint that is encouraged more and more by the media.

[Broomstick]

The thing is, taking pain killer for mild or moderate pain seems to me a cop out. Again it fits into the no shit sherlock category. I do not want to be dependent on a drug or a particular form of treatment for the rest of my life. There's many reasons from side effects to cost, but I don't want to forget to eat a pill and suddenly go through a terrible day without it.

However, more and more evidence is coming in that "toughing out" pain on a regular basis can lead to chronic pain - the more the nervous system transmits pain signals the better it gets at doing so. For certain types of injury and pain medicating immediately and consistently is vital if you truly want to avoid becoming dependent on pain medication for the rest of your life. Refusing to take pain medication until you're desparate also increases your chances of addiction because it trains the body to associate good feelings (pain relief) with the pill or needle - if you medicate before pain the mind/body doesn't build that association as rapidly or as strongly.

So yeah, a mild headache, stubbed toe, or a minor scrape doesn't require painkillers. A broken leg, a toothache, a migraine - those should be medicated. For major surgery painkillers should be administered prior to waking up. Patient controlled analgesia also is a valuable tool, and it's been shown that when patients have some control over their pain relief - as opposed to waiting for, or worse yet, begging for pain relief that must be administered by overworked medical personnel - they use less painkiller and are less likely to have complications from the treatment.

Also - sleep is very important for recovering from illness or injury. It is entirely appropriate to use painkillers prior to sleep to promote better rest even if you can "tough it out" during the day. Using painkillers that way will promote faster healing.

Don't be so afraid of the tool that you fail to use it properly and when appropriate.

[brianeyci]

That's a good point I never considered, or really did any research in. My own quality of life is significantly hindered by pain, and I never really asked the doctor how to use painkillers. Not that they never offered to teach me, but I just brushed them off. Also, that story I mentioned I left out the detail that the nurse told me not to use codeine but a mix of acethemophen and ibuprofen, for more effective pain relief and inflammation relief.

I'll be experimenting with painkillers this month then and tell you how it goes. No doubt I'm pumping my body full of "toxins" . I've heard of rebound pain, and dependencies so I'm worried, so I'll start with low doses. Apparently my fear of painkillers is as unfounded as people who fear microwaves, pretty embarassing. It's a man thing.

[kinnison]

brianeyci; you may (or may not) be interested to know that I make my living by selling vitamins and nutritional and herbal supplements, and yes, we do stock homoeopathic remedies - but never recommend them.

There is a great deal of data to support nutritional and herbal therapy; there is less for dietary change, if only the gold-standard double-blind testing is kind of hard to do when you're testing a change of diet. There is none at all for homoeopathy, and that's why we don't recommend it. But we are there to make money, and we would be utterly stupid to refuse to sell placebo remedies such as homoeopathy, as all they would do would be to go somewhere else.

However, there are some "remedies" (for some reason, a lot of them are for slimming) that we flat-out refuse to sell, because they have a large risk of harm and don't work.

I have no idea what your health problem is; but numerous chronic, painful health problems have effective "alternative" remedies - effective as in clinically trialled.

There is an awful lot of junk info out there. One of my job functions, as I see it, is to filter out the garbage. I am not medically qualified - but a biochemistry degree from a top uni and twenty years of experience ought to count for something!

[Rye]

Scan your degree please, if you'll lie about GPs, you might be lying about that, too.

[brianeyci]

The "data" to support "nutritional" therapy is something I would be interested in. Because I always thought that the Centrum and fibre craze generated expensive piss. If I am wrong and normal foods do not provide the right nutrition, by all means tell me. I do take vitamins, but only because I know I don't eat enough and my eating habits are shit, not because I see any value of them over food.

As for degree, sure you could have it and I don't really want you to scan it as Zuul's asking and waste your time. The problem is science is not a jack of all trades field at all. A physicist can know nothing about chemistry and a biologist could know nothing about medicine. I don't see why you bother to bring it up at all, because I never questioned your qualifications. I asked why you questioned medical qualifications, why you question the idea that doctor knows best in terms of prescription drugs. Because in the majority of cases he really does. Of course for a wholistic treatment, a doctor isn't a dentist, a family doctor isn't a physiotherapist, a family doctor isn't a personal trainer or nutritionist, so slamming doctors for not providing wholistic care is dumb. That isn't their job.

I always wonder why people blame doctors for things like mercury fillings, not suggesting exercise, and so on. No shit, doctors give drugs, they aren't wholistic practitioners and I do not want them to be jack of all trades master of none. But some people just want their magic pills.

[Broomstick]

The "data" to support "nutritional" therapy is something I would be interested in. Because I always thought that the Centrum and fibre craze generated expensive piss.

Nitpick - the fiber craze generates expensive shit, not expensive piss.

Although it doesn't have to - a housebrand multivitamin is pretty cheap, and inexpensive high fiber foods are, too.

If I am wrong and normal foods do not provide the right nutrition, by all means tell me. I do take vitamins, but only because I know I don't eat enough and my eating habits are shit, not because I see any value of them over food.

I'd prefer you eat better but yeah, supplementing a somewhat iffy diet is a legitimate use of a multivitamin. Some medical conditions do require dietary changes, but doctors usually do know about them. There are a few others where significant diet changes can definitely help at least some of the affect population, but the average person doesn't need anything expensive or exotic -- the problem is, shit food is often even cheaper and easier to obtain.

[Broomstick]

That's a good point I never considered, or really did any research in. My own quality of life is significantly hindered by pain, and I never really asked the doctor how to use painkillers. Not that they never offered to teach me, but I just brushed them off. Also, that story I mentioned I left out the detail that the nurse told me not to use codeine but a mix of acethemophen and ibuprofen, for more effective pain relief and inflammation relief.

And for some conditions that IS a more effective combination than coedine. I get so frustrated by people who demand something like coedine even when it's not appropriate then bitch it doesn't work - no, you dumbshit, that's the what highly educated medical people were trying to tell you!

If inflammation is contributing to pain then an anti-inflammatory may well be more effective than an mild opiate because it's eliminating some of the cause of the pain.

I'll be experimenting with painkillers this month then and tell you how it goes.

I'd kinda really sorta very much really would feel better about that statement if you told me you were consulting a qualified medical person about that "experimenting"....

You must respect the tools, after all - if they're strong enough to help you, they're strong enough to hurt you.

[Lisa]

codeine isn't really that effective as a pain killer in the opiate family. one your body has to metabolatize it into another opiate before your receptors will even be affected by it and your ability to do so varies from person to person, plus it has a double pass just to use the thing...


back on the track of detoxifying, I used to fast for a day and drink nothing but distilled water, but perusing these extended diets i see nothing but disaster in them.

[kinnison]

I have been told by many people, some of them doctors, that the ancient art of history-taking is pretty well dead. Possibly because of this, problems with a cause that ought to be obvious are often missed.

OK, this is an anecdote, but here goes. Before I got into this business, for some reason a work colleague got talking to me about his health problems. He had been to his GP and from there to various specialists; including, I think (it was a long time ago) an oncologist, a haematologist, an endocrinologist, an immunologist and also to his dentist several times - the reason for the last will become obvious. He was, of course, subjected to a huge battery of tests over several months - and nothing was found.

His symptoms included easy bruising, getting every infection going and taking ages getting over them, muscle and joint pains, poor healing rate, bleeding gums and loosening teeth. Has anyone guessed what the problem was? I spotted it with not much more than high-school biology to my name. The problem was scurvy.

Yes, SCURVY. Half a dozen high-priced experts had messed him about for months, and ten minutes of inquiry into his eating habits (which were crap) could have solved the problem then and there. How was it solved? Simple. 200mg per day of vitamin C solved it - in a week. Changing his diet kept it solved.

Not long afterwards, I decided to start with what I am doing now. Of course doctors don't take a holistic approach - they are not trained that way. IMHO they should be. All too often, I and my business partner (who is also my father) clean up the messes doctors leave.

[brianeyci]

Of course doctors don't take a holistic approach - they are not trained that way. IMHO they should be

Yes, doctors should be trained like Robin Williams' character wanted them to be, to walk into hospitals and dress up in clown suits since that cures diseases. Or to be nutritionists, chiropractors, acupuncturists, massage therapists, dentists, personal trainers, motivational speakers, dieticians, physiotherapists. Of course there is nothing wrong with that at all.

All too often, I and my business partner (who is also my father) clean up the messes doctors leave.

Bullshit. Doctors didn't cause the patient's problems, and the patients themselves were too stupid to seek out alternative treatment for chronic problems. Is it that hard to accept that people are stupid and doctors cannot be jack of all trades? A person who doesn't eat enough vitamin C is stupid, enough said, and it isn't a doctor's problem to hand out a checklist to every single patient they meet and ask them what they eat.

Your definition of responsibility seems warped, as if it was or should be the doctor's burden to make people eat healthy or make people exercise.

I sure don't want my doctor to be my friend, to delve into my psychological problems, or to be my mother and tell me what to and what not to eat. Doctors should be as professional and scientific as possible, so I want them to be detached. Science is too specialized and focused for one man to know everything, and if certain people are too stupid to understand that, it's their problem.

[brianeyci]

Actually sorry for the double post, but whether you like it or not kinnison, it seems as if you did exactly what a doctor would do. Look at symptoms, and match symptoms to a disease. As far as I know, this is not what wholistic healing does. Wholistic healing is more about telling someone everything about your life, about spiritual and emotional and personal well being.

There's nothing wrong with that, but the rigor required to survive medical school doesn't create someone you want to tell all your secrets to. It makes a detached man, aloof, perhaps arrogant, and I see no problem with that. Take away the rigor and let in a whole bunch of flaky people who would make good wholistic healers but terrible doctors and you run the risk of jack of all trades master of none. I sure would not want to tell all my secrets to a personal physician.

I don't know your man, but I bet all your guy said was "There's something wrong I dont' feel good?" and expected the doctor to find out what was wrong through the magic of science and technology. Poor communication is a serious problem. If your guy had explained all his problems to his doctors, all the symptoms, wrote them down, and given them to the doctors, I bet they would've found the scurvy problem easily. I bet your guy was too uncomfortable to talk to his doctor about his shit diet.

And that's the real problem -- lack of confidence in the patient and doctor-patient communication. Whether you like it or not you followed the same methodology a doctor would, match symptoms with a disease, and if doctor training doesn't encompass dietary deficiencies (which it should) then that's the problem, not the methodology.

And you are arguing against the methodology of modern medicine, so your whole ancedote for what it's worth falls on its face.

[PainRack]

I have been told by many people, some of them doctors, that the ancient art of history-taking is pretty well dead. Possibly because of this, problems with a cause that ought to be obvious are often missed.

And that is more likely a failing of certain medical courses and people, not indicative of the entire profession.

OK, this is an anecdote, but here goes. Before I got into this business, for some reason a work colleague got talking to me about his health problems. He had been to his GP and from there to various specialists; including, I think (it was a long time ago) an oncologist, a haematologist, an endocrinologist, an immunologist and also to his dentist several times - the reason for the last will become obvious. He was, of course, subjected to a huge battery of tests over several months - and nothing was found.

His symptoms included easy bruising, getting every infection going and taking ages getting over them, muscle and joint pains, poor healing rate, bleeding gums and loosening teeth. Has anyone guessed what the problem was? I spotted it with not much more than high-school biology to my name. The problem was scurvy.

Yes, SCURVY. Half a dozen high-priced experts had messed him about for months, and ten minutes of inquiry into his eating habits (which were crap) could have solved the problem then and there. How was it solved? Simple. 200mg per day of vitamin C solved it - in a week. Changing his diet kept it solved.

There is a reason why doctors will miss this out. Scurvy as a disease has been almost entirely wiped out in modern society, hell, even in third world countries.

As such, doctors with no experience of this disease, and indeed, this stunningly rare disorder will not be able to make a differential diagnosis.

And frankly, I think your anecedote is lacking in something. If a person has been suffering the entire gamut of symptoms for some time and as severe as you described it, he would have been put inside a hospital for further monitoring. In which case, the problem should have been cleared up there.

Not long afterwards, I decided to start with what I am doing now. Of course doctors don't take a holistic approach - they are not trained that way. IMHO they should be. All too often, I and my business partner (who is also my father) clean up the messes doctors leave.

Except that you really have brought no evidence that your approach is superior to the medical approach. Is your methods based on any real science? Are they able to yield consistent results and predictive powers?

[PainRack]

Actually sorry for the double post, but whether you like it or not kinnison, it seems as if you did exactly what a doctor would do. Look at symptoms, and match symptoms to a disease. As far as I know, this is not what wholistic healing does. Wholistic healing is more about telling someone everything about your life, about spiritual and emotional and personal well being.

Holistic medicine means looking at a person as a whole, including not just the physical aspects of a disease but the social, pyschological and emotional aspects.

If we were to talk about say breast cancer, a purely biomedical approach would focus on surgery, taking out the cancerous cells and making sure the patient survives the surgery and cancer goes into remission. A holistic approach would also look at how to preserve as much breast tissue as possible, how to miminise scarring so that the person self-image is preserved, looking into cosmetic surgery and counselling so as to preserve a patient sexuality and etc etc etc.

It just suggests that a disease isn't just cells and germs, but rather, how it affects a person.

[Rye]

Doctors can diagnose scurvy. Frankly, I suspect the person in kinnison's case either saw an incompetent doctor that should've been struck off, never saw a doctor or kinnison made the whole thing up. Why the fuck anyone would think a herbalist could spot scurvy while a GP in general can't is beyond me. I'd be surprised if the nurse couldn't spot scurby, let alone the GP.

I don't trust anything some fucking hippie with an anti-establishment hard on says without corroboration. "Oh hey, I stand up for a service with no clinical trials required for our medicines, we're better than actual doctors, honest! I have a degree! I never went through four years of medical school or cut my medical teeth in a busy hospital, but I am better at diagnosing illness than people who have!" Barf.

[Broomstick]

I have been told by many people, some of them doctors, that the ancient art of history-taking is pretty well dead.

Funny. My sister just completed her MD and she had to not only learn about taking a medical history, she had to actually do it.

Wow, come to think of it, the doc I saw last January when I was so sick took quite thorough medical history. In fact, I had so many medical types take my history I threatened to put it on a tape, I was so tired of repeating myself.

Yeah, "some" doctors are shit doctors. Just like "some" members of any profession are shit. That hardly means ALL doctors are shit and incompetant.

Possibly because of this, problems with a cause that ought to be obvious are often missed.

Please provide proof of that statement. Or shut the fuck up.

OK, this is an anecdote

ANECDOTE != DATA, FUCKWIT

for some reason a work colleague got talking to me about his health problems.

Probably because fuckwits and nutjobs too stupid to go to a doctor often seem compelled to inflict their bullshit on the rest of us.

His symptoms included easy bruising, getting every infection going and taking ages getting over them, muscle and joint pains, poor healing rate, bleeding gums and loosening teeth. Has anyone guessed what the problem was? I spotted it with not much more than high-school biology to my name. The problem was scurvy.

Yes, SCURVY. Half a dozen high-priced experts had messed him about for months, and ten minutes of inquiry into his eating habits (which were crap) could have solved the problem then and there. How was it solved? Simple. 200mg per day of vitamin C solved it - in a week. Changing his diet kept it solved.

You know, that's just incredible. As in it's not credible. I flat out don't believe this is true. Yeah, I could see one doctor missing this diagnosis, but not multiple doctors. Particularly, I find it incredible that dentists would miss this. Scurvy isn't common, but it still crops up from time to time and the gum manifestations are pretty distinctive.

Without evidence to back this up I call bullshit.