Rebels: Terrorists or Freedom Fighters (Battle of Endor too)

[Dark Flame]

So as long as it's just a New Republic civilian, it's ok?

I think he's just trying to say that it's not the NR's fault. He was a civilian, using a secret Imperial superweapon. There wasn't much the NR could do about it. They didn't build the weapon, they didn't give control of it to him, and they certainly didn't condone it.

However, they did fail to punish him.

[Warsie]

So as long as it's just a New Republic civilian, it's ok?

Kyp was not a NR civilian though so legally they had no authority over him.

Deyer was last part of the OR and was neutral until the Empire took over the world.

Actually, many Imperials had bounties placed on them for such ridiculous crimes as treason and destruction of property.

I have an example on hand, but I hesitate to post it as the image is comparatively huge.

Wasn't that during the war, and the NR called off much of the bounties around the time of the BFC, or at the latest the Pellaeon-Gavrison Treaty?

And you also mention that too. Could the Imperials used Carida (And the 0ther 2 systems) Kyp destroyed as propaganda against the NR

[Pint0 Xtreme]

Anakin fighting buzz droids in the elevator shaft of the Invisible Hand isn't directly contradicted by anything higher-up either. Should we assume he had a skirmish with them before R2 dropped the elevator?

If it fits in, then it must be accepted. Yes.

I see you ignored my point about Occam's Razor to continue justifying your retarded retcon.

fine. One of the X-wing books mentions Wedge Antilles allowign one of his friends to get a mission which basically was escort an Alliance Corvette to Alderaan. I'd call that a military presence. Given the book is from an Alliance/New Republic perspective it's safe to say there was more (propaganda value: Alderaan was a peaceful world, no weapons...,NOT!)

How the hell does that suggest that Alderaan had a military presence? The fact that rebels once escorted an alliance craft to Alderaan somehow logically leads to the conclusion that Alderaan had a military force??

EDIT: Again, I also bring you the example of the guy Janson killed in the X-wing novels. Alliance/Alderaanian Honor Guard went to his family's house without any fear of being ratted out.

So you're implying that Alderaan sanctioning rebel individuals on the planet somehow means they had a military presence? Does the term non-sequitur mean anything to you?

By using video games solely as a source for continuity, you not only bastardly retcon continuity but you violate Occam's Razor as well. Games (unless supported by other sources) do not define Star Wars canon, mmkay?

It's actually unless games are contradicted b higher sources they are official. That's the canon hierachy.

They are contradicted by higher sources. The movie and virtually every literature concerning Alderaan suggests that it was defenseless. Or perhaps you conveniently forgot that the Viceroy and Bail Organa outlawed all weapons on Alderaan?

[Connor MacLeod]

The main objection I have to the notion that there was a Rebel Fleet at Alderaan is that its inconveicable that Tarkin would be ignorant of the fact, or that he would fail to mention this to Leia. He's trying to coerce Leia into giving up the location of the Rebel base, and she's protesting Alderaan is defenseless.

Having a Rebel fleet (or a military fleet) present around a "defenceless" planet, much less one attacking Imperial ships, would repersent a provocation too tempting for Tarkin to pass up or ignore. If anynthing it would give Tarkin an excuse to execute the planet unless Leia coughed up the name Tarkin wants.

[Warsie]

I see you ignored my point about Occam's Razor to continue justifying your retarded retcon.

fine. I concede.

How the hell does that suggest that Alderaan had a military presence? The fact that rebels once escorted an alliance craft to Alderaan somehow logically leads to the conclusion that Alderaan had a military force??

As I said the novel was from an Alliance perspective, and the "corvette" could mean a larger force.

Though I may be exxagerating what Antilles said and it could only be a corvette as he said

It's actually unless games are contradicted b higher sources they are official. That's the canon hierachy.

They are contradicted by higher sources. The movie and virtually every literature concerning Alderaan suggests that it was defenseless. Or perhaps you conveniently forgot that the Viceroy and Bail Organa outlawed all weapons on Alderaan?[/quote]

And most novels and sources are written from a Rebel Perspective, I may add.

And yes, Alderaan did have all weapons outlawed on the planet's surface.
However, you forget Alderaan's rearmament program I mentioned in the earlier quote, buying "patrol craft" from Kuat.

So I concede that Alderaan might not have had an Alliance Fleet orbiting the world, but the world would have rearmed, and I might add quickly; the fleet KDY was building to go to Alderaan was done and was going to be sent to Alderaan when news of its' destruction was heard.

[Jaevric]

Direct Quote
"The Emperor had already shown his disregard for maintaining the galaxy's customer base, by sanctioning the late Governor Tarkin's destruction of the planet Alderaan with the massive firepower of the original Death Star. That had personally rankled Kuat; there had been an outstanding contract with the local government on Alderaan for a utility fleet of perimeter observation scouts and orbital customs stations, all to be furnished at a considerable profit by Kuat Drive Yards. The units had been just about ready to leave the KDY construction docks and head off in a delivery flotilla to Alderaan when the word of their destination being reduced to a few charred ashes drifting in navigable space had reached Kuat of Kuat. A near-total write-down for the corporation, salvageable only in part by breaking up the undelivered vessels and recycling some of their components into the next order for Imperial battle cruisers."\

Saxton says:
"Superficially, the text would imply small scout craft, in keeping with Alderaan's pacifist pretensions, however the fact that components were usefully reincorporated into Imperial battlecruisers indicates that these vessels were effective naval hardware. They may have been formidable warships, part of the covert re-armament program alluded to in the Star Wars Encyclopedia and elsewhere. At the very least, the fact that they were capable of independent interstellar flight indicates something more versatile than the usual kind of system patrol craft. Their designation as "scouts" may have been duplicitous, intended to maintain Alderaan's illusion of peacability. "

http://theforce.net/swtc/novels/ss.html

Is this the quote you refer to as supporting Alderaan's rearmament? Because the quote doesn't really prove anything of the sort.

This quote strongly suggests that whatever type of craft the "perimeter observation scouts" were was hyper-capable. However, it doesn't claim anything about firepower, size, or range. For that matter, it's arguable that the ships were more-or-less standard system patrol craft, and the "delivery flotilla" consisted of freighters big enough to transport the craft to Alderaan. After all, KDY was also constructing "orbital customs stations" for Alderaan, and those would almost certainly not be hyper-capable.

Further, the fact that the "perimeter observation scouts" were able to be stripped with some components going into battlecruiser production doesn't mean much. We may be talking about nothing more dangerous than anti-starfighter laser batteries or in-system navigational computers. Hell, we could be talking about blast doors or lifepods.

All Saxton claims, and all the quote suggests, is that the vessels "may have been formidable warships." Even that is an extrapolation based on the very vague quote that some of the parts could be used in construction of larger warships.

If nothing else, Kuat of Kuat wouldn't want to piss off the Emperor by selling warships to Alderaan if it was very likely they would be capable of standing up to an Imperial task force in the case of open warfare.

[Surlethe]

The strongest evidence for an Alderaanian rearmament that I've seen is the presence of a military-grade planetary shield, and it can be nominally passed off as protection from asteroids and other errant planetoids.[/u]

[Pint0 Xtreme]

As I said the novel was from an Alliance perspective, and the "corvette" could mean a larger force.

Though I may be exxagerating what Antilles said and it could only be a corvette as he said

You are indeed exaggerating by implying that an escort mission somehow equates to Alderaan having a full fledged military. The fact that a number of rebel ships traveled to Alderaan (which shouldn't be surprising at all considering Alderaan probably supported the Alliance morally and financially) doesn't say diddly squat about Alderaan's military capabilities.

And most novels and sources are written from a Rebel Perspective, I may add.

The OT movies are filmed from a Rebel perspective as well. What's your point?

And yes, Alderaan did have all weapons outlawed on the planet's surface.
However, you forget Alderaan's rearmament program I mentioned in the earlier quote, buying "patrol craft" from Kuat.

Which quote was that? I searched the thread and haven't found an instance where you've quoted a source referring to "rearming" Alderaan with patrol craft.

And even if Alderaan did arm itself with patrol craft, your quotations imply that Alderaan was lying about the nature of its "patrol craft". Why should we assume that they were being dishonest about the nature of their defenses? Do you automatically dismiss any rebel literature as deceitful propaganda? Does that mean that we should consider the events portrayed in the OT movies to be significantly distorted since they are shown from the perspective of the rebels?

So I concede that Alderaan might not have had an Alliance Fleet orbiting the world, but the world would have rearmed, and I might add quickly; the fleet KDY was building to go to Alderaan was done and was going to be sent to Alderaan when news of its' destruction was heard.

What KDY fleet are you talking about? What does it being sent to Alderaan have anything to do with Alderaan's standing military? That paragraph makes no sense in the context of the discussion.

EDIT: Nevermind. Found the quote.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

Concerning the reference to KDY's contract with Alderaan, I don't see why we have to automatically assume KDY built warships for Alderaan. KDY is a massive ship building conglomerate and it probably built large warships for the Empire as well as smaller patrol craft for numerous systems. It shouldn't be surprising if Alderaan did business with KDY since it was pretty much the Microsoft of starships in the SW universe.

[TC Pilot]

Kyp was not a NR civilian though so legally they had no authority over him.

Deyer was last part of the OR and was neutral until the Empire took over the world.

I hesitate to believe you since the Anoat system was represented in the New Republic Senate and Kyp Durron was training to be a Jedi Knight.

Wasn't that during the war, and the NR called off much of the bounties around the time of the BFC, or at the latest the Pellaeon-Gavrison Treaty?

The fact that the bounties were issued during wartime is the very point. It's virtually insane to post bounties on opposing military officers for charges like treason and destruction of property.

And you also mention that too. Could the Imperials used Carida (And the 0ther 2 systems) Kyp destroyed as propaganda against the NR

They rightfully should.

[Warsie]

You are indeed exaggerating by implying that an escort mission somehow equates to Alderaan having a full fledged military. The fact that a number of rebel ships traveled to Alderaan (which shouldn't be surprising at all considering Alderaan probably supported the Alliance morally and financially) doesn't say diddly squat about Alderaan's military capabilities.

fine.

The OT movies are filmed from a Rebel perspective as well. What's your point?

You must factor that in with some statements and facts. I remember some people calling the OT Rebel Propaganda or a Documantary shot by the Alliance.

And even if Alderaan did arm itself with patrol craft, your quotations imply that Alderaan was lying about the nature of its "patrol craft".

For one thing, the ships was able to be taken apart and then as parts installed in Imperial Battlecruisers

]Why should we assume that they were being dishonest about the nature of their defenses?

Because Alderaan was aiding Rebels and Saxton also refers the Star Wars encyclopedia (and other sources) on Alderaan re-arming.

Do you automatically dismiss any rebel literature as deceitful propaganda?

no; but you must factor it in.

Does that mean that we should consider the events portrayed in the OT movies to be significantly distorted since they are shown from the perspective of the rebels?

Possibly, some have called it a documentary made from the Alliance perspective so we must not take everything at face value

Concerning the reference to KDY's contract with Alderaan, I don't see why we have to automatically assume KDY built warships for Alderaan. KDY is a massive ship building conglomerate and it probably built large warships for the Empire as well as smaller patrol craft for numerous systems. It shouldn't be surprising if Alderaan did business with KDY since it was pretty much the Microsoft of starships in the SW universe.

True; but for one: those shps could be scrapped and put into Imperial Battlecruisers.

Saxton also suggests this:
". At the very least, the fact that they were capable of independent interstellar flight indicates something more versatile than the usual kind of system patrol craft. Their designation as "scouts" may have been duplicitous, intended to maintain Alderaan's illusion of peacability. "

I hesitate to believe you since the Anoat system was represented in the New Republic Senate and Kyp Durron was training to be a Jedi Knight.

Ahh....that is true.

But was Kyp Durron offically mde a NR citizen or anything lke that? Well the process of becoming a NR citizen seems murky; likely the Imperial citizens of worlds taken by the NR were automatically made NR citizens.
Quote:

The fact that the bounties were issued during wartime is the very point. It's virtually insane to post bounties on opposing military officers for charges like treason and destruction of property.

That's weird 0_o

k

They rightfully should.

k

[Surlethe]

They rightfully should.

k

What does that mean?

[Connor MacLeod]

I should point out that as per the rOTJ novelization, the Alderaanians HAD contributed naval assets to the Rebel fleet (Alderaanian gunships were identified alongside Mon Cal and Corellian ships.) If they were not building ships for the Rebels secretly, then they at some point DID contribute substantial fleet assets to them. Either way doesn't really bode well for Alderaan.

Also, there is the whole "defense systems of alderaan being as strong as any in the Empire despite Leia's protests." bit in the ANH novel, as well as Tarkin noting that Alderaan eliminted the rebels "main source of munitions." (Leia had protested earlier Alderaan was peaceful, and had no "weapons" or "standing armies", even though this evidently proved false.) which points to a degree of militarization which would not preclude defensive ships of SOME kind.

One possibility (though a thin one) is that the "Rebel ships" supposedly around Alderaan were the system's own dedicated "system defense ships" or "security forces" and that they later fled (and joined the Rebels, hence the "Alderaanian gunships" mentioned in ROTJ.) Bear in mind this does not neccesarily mean that the Alderaan fleet is automatically the same number/type/composition as what the game implied. And there is still the problem why Tarkin might not mention ships at all (not neccesarily irreconcilable, but not easily so either.)

[Warsie]

What does that mean?

k is a shorthand way of saying "okay".

And Connnor MacLeod; thank you for reminding me of the novelization quotes.

[Lord Relvenous]

Does Alderaanian Gunships refer to a design (i.e. Mon Calamari Cruiser) or allegiance? Because if it refers to a design, they very well might be ships that Alderaan sold to independent consumers after the CW.

[Jaevric]

And even if Alderaan did arm itself with patrol craft, your quotations imply that Alderaan was lying about the nature of its "patrol craft".

For one thing, the ships was able to be taken apart and then as parts installed in Imperial Battlecruisers

The quotation is that some of the components were used in the next set of Imperial Battlecruisers. As I stated earlier, it says nothing about which components or what percentage of the components could be used in that fashion. The components in question could be anything from quad blaster arrays to drink dispensers to blast doors to toilets. It could even be the case that these were the most heavily-armed "perimeter observation scouts" in the galaxy, and the components in question were the fifteen heavy turbolaser batteries each of them carried. But we've got no evidence this was the case.

Given the availability of shipboard weapons to even civilian vessels--such as smugglers and freighters--in the Star Wars universe, even an in-system customs patrol ship is going to need significant weapons and shields just to be able to stop, for example, smugglers.

Even assuming that the customs ships had military-grade weapons and shields, and that those components were useable in the next set of cruisers, it doesn't prove that the vessels were militarily significant. A couple of light turbolasers may be sufficient to make any sane smuggler or freighter captain allow his vessel to be stopped and searched. It doesn't make the ship anything more than a momentary distraction for an Imperial Star Destroyer, or even most lighter warships.

[TC Pilot]

Also, the "demilitarization" and "disarming" of Alderaan is misleading. They disposed of a great deal of their weaponry onboard the Another Chance, which they could recall from deep space at a moment's notice.

[Jaevric]

I should point out that as per the rOTJ novelization, the Alderaanians HAD contributed naval assets to the Rebel fleet (Alderaanian gunships were identified alongside Mon Cal and Corellian ships.) If they were not building ships for the Rebels secretly, then they at some point DID contribute substantial fleet assets to them. Either way doesn't really bode well for Alderaan.

We know there was at least one old Alderaanian warship still around from after the Clone Wars. It's entirely possible that instead of simply destroying them, they were sold to mercenaries or other planetary navies, and ended up in Rebel hands that way. According to the X-Wing novels, Alderaan had arranged for several of the "decommissioned" ships to be recoverable at a later date if need be.

Also, there is the whole "defense systems of alderaan being as strong as any in the Empire despite Leia's protests." bit in the ANH novel, as well as Tarkin noting that Alderaan eliminted the rebels "main source of munitions." (Leia had protested earlier Alderaan was peaceful, and had no "weapons" or "standing armies", even though this evidently proved false.) which points to a degree of militarization which would not preclude defensive ships of SOME kind.

"Defense systems of Alderaan being as strong as any in the Empire despite Leia's protests" could simply refer to the planetary shields--which, after all, were able to at least momentarily withstand a blast from the Death Star. We also know from the X-Wing novels--I don't have mine anymore so I can't provide the quote--that the Rebels had found a sizeable cache of Alderaanian infantry-grade weapons that were disposed of during the disarmament process after the Clone Wars. Alternately, Alderaanian funds could and probably were being used to buy weapons and ammunition, thus eliminating the source of those funds would put a significant dent in the Rebel's ability to buy munitions.

One possibility (though a thin one) is that the "Rebel ships" supposedly around Alderaan were the system's own dedicated "system defense ships" or "security forces" and that they later fled (and joined the Rebels, hence the "Alderaanian gunships" mentioned in ROTJ.) Bear in mind this does not neccesarily mean that the Alderaan fleet is automatically the same number/type/composition as what the game implied. And there is still the problem why Tarkin might not mention ships at all (not neccesarily irreconcilable, but not easily so either.)

For that matter, we know that the support among the survivors of Alderaan for the Rebellion increased dramatically after Alderaan's destruction, and that the Rebels were capable of at least limited production of ships. It's possible the "Alderaanian gunships" were smaller vessels that were referred to as such because it was primarily Alderaanian money and contacts that led to their production.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

The OT movies are filmed from a Rebel perspective as well. What's your point?

You must factor that in with some statements and facts. I remember some people calling the OT Rebel Propaganda or a Documantary shot by the Alliance.

...

some have called it a documentary made from the Alliance perspective so we must not take everything at face value

...

Do you automatically dismiss any rebel literature as deceitful propaganda?

no; but you must factor it in.

Hogwash. If there is little to no contrary evidence, the fact that it is shown from the Rebel perspective means little. For example, there's no reason why we should question the Rebel's portrayal of Palpatine as an evil Sith lord.

For one thing, the ships was able to be taken apart and then as parts installed in Imperial Battlecruisers

So what? The fact that the patrol ships purchased by Alderaan could recycle some of its components for battle cruisers doesn't mean anything at all. Are you implying that dedicated warships and system patrol ships share nothing in common in the context of starship components?

Why should we assume that they were being dishonest about the nature of their defenses?

Because Alderaan was aiding Rebels...

Everyone knew Alderaan was aiding the Rebels. Numerous systems aided the Rebels. That's not the issue. Whether Alderaan had a full-fledged military is completely independent of the fact that they supported the Alliance in one form or another.

...and Saxton also refers the Star Wars encyclopedia (and other sources) on Alderaan re-arming.

What Star Wars encyclopedia? And what "other sources"? List me those references that override information were stated in various EU sources (including SW.com) and also implied in the movie.

True; but for one: those shps could be scrapped and put into Imperial Battlecruisers.

Right... because dedicated warships do not share any similar components whatsoever with civilian or patrol craft.

Saxton also suggests this:
". At the very least, the fact that they were capable of independent interstellar flight indicates something more versatile than the usual kind of system patrol craft. Their designation as "scouts" may have been duplicitous, intended to maintain Alderaan's illusion of peacability. "

I disagree. One can find hyperdrive systems in most common ships in the galaxy. Freighters, personal transports, luxury yachts, envoy ships, cruiser liners and every other imaginable starship that requires to independently travel from one system to another fits in that category. The fact that those ships were capable of interstellar flight indicates precisely that; those ships need to travel from system to system as do the vast majority of starships in the SW galaxy.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

In reference to the Alderaanian gunships in ROTJ, I think it's important to note that the impressive Mon Calamari cruisers were once peaceful passenger ships. Alderaan was a fairly wealthy system and I highly doubt all of its starship assets were on the planet when it blew up. The Alliance is well known for scrounging up as many ships as possible and adding military-grade modifications to them, just like the Tantive IV.

[Tanasinn]

I thought the whole insipid "rebuilt cruise ships" thing had been implied to be retconned away by the fact that Mon Calamari and Quarren both played big roles as military vessel producers during the Clone Wars.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

I thought the whole insipid "rebuilt cruise ships" thing had been implied to be retconned away by the fact that Mon Calamari and Quarren both played big roles as military vessel producers during the Clone Wars.

I've never heard of that but even if the Mon Calamari and Quarren did play big roles as military vessel producers during the Clone Wars, I don't see how that contradicts, in any way, the idea that the Mon Calamari cruisers were once passenger starships. If anything, it reinforces that thought as it would make sense that the Mon Calamari, experts at military ship construction, could adequately convert their peaceful vessels into dedicated warships.

[Isolder74]

I thought the whole insipid "rebuilt cruise ships" thing had been implied to be retconned away by the fact that Mon Calamari and Quarren both played big roles as military vessel producers during the Clone Wars.

I've never heard of that but even if the Mon Calamari and Quarren did play big roles as military vessel producers during the Clone Wars, I don't see how that contradicts, in any way, the idea that the Mon Calamari cruisers were once passenger starships. If anything, it reinforces that thought as it would make sense that the Mon Calamari, experts at military ship construction, could adequately convert their peaceful vessels into dedicated warships.

Its also possible that they converted warships from the Clone Wars into Luxery Liners after the war then reinstalled everything to make them warships again as well.

[Dark Flame]

Is it possible that perhaps they were indeed built originally as cruise ships, but were made so as to be easily converted into warships? That would be quite a feat of engineering, I would think. Not only to look pretty, but to be very easily converted into effective warships would make the Mon Cal and Quarren pretty skilled ship builders.

I don't know if this has any validity to it, I'm just throwing out an idea here.

[Lord Relvenous]

Many of the books in the EU discuss the superiority of Mon Calamari engineering, so i'm hearing nothing new.