Who SHOULD have won the Clone Wars?

[Havok]

How is that going to "remove' the Shroud? At most it might lessen its impact some, but a big part of the Shroud was the Clone Wars itself - the perpetuation of violence, hate, pain and suffering that the JEdi were a part of was as much a factor in their downfall as the Clones/Order 66 or any other factor. A widespread conflict even without palpatine's machinations is bound to have at least some adverse effects on Jedi abilities.

The Force flows through everything. The general "evilfeelings", so to speak, in the galaxy at the time was probably enough to hinder the Jedi a little bit, if not more, but I'm sure Palpatine was doing everything he could to help it along.

OT: You spelled context wrong in your Sig Connor.

[Darth Fanboy]

How is that going to "remove' the Shroud? At most it might lessen its impact some, but a big part of the Shroud was the Clone Wars itself - the perpetuation of violence, hate, pain and suffering that the JEdi were a part of was as much a factor in their downfall as the Clones/Order 66 or any other factor.

The Shroud existed before the Clone Wars, and prevented the Jedi from anticipating the upcoming fight. This was fed largely in part by Sidious/Palpatine's influence. In the scenario suggested by the OP such influence would be negated would it not?

A widespread conflict even without palpatine's machinations is bound to have at least some adverse effects on Jedi abilities.

Possibly, but the Jedi had fought in full scale wars in the past and succeeded, so I don't think one could count on the existence of a large scale war being enough.

[The Grim Squeaker]

How is that going to "remove' the Shroud? At most it might lessen its impact some, but a big part of the Shroud was the Clone Wars itself - the perpetuation of violence, hate, pain and suffering that the JEdi were a part of was as much a factor in their downfall as the Clones/Order 66 or any other factor.

The Shroud existed before the Clone Wars, and prevented the Jedi from anticipating the upcoming fight. This was fed largely in part by Sidious/Palpatine's influence.

Fed, but not soley dependent one. The Clone wars on their own vastly increased the power of the shroud (arguably to the point where it was self sustaining for the duration of the war).

In the scenario suggested by the OP such influence would be negated would it not?

That Palpatine might stop fuelling it? Maybe, but the war itself would still perpetuate it (rather like a kick-started chain reaction).

A widespread conflict even without palpatine's machinations is bound to have at least some adverse effects on Jedi abilities.

Possibly, but the Jedi had fought in full scale wars in the past and succeeded, so I don't think one could count on the existence of a large scale war being enough.

Wars when the fighters fought on a smaller scale, The Sith Wars were over a few hundred planets, The Wars of the KOTOR era over even less (and the jedi were still bamboozled by Kun).

Also, while people mention the Trade federation's build-up (ignoring the fact that they had droid crewed ships and "Security forces" regardless, that they builded up due to pirating activity and good old fashioned Greed), they seem to forget that without Palpatine the Republic would have no Clone Forces. No GAR means no proffesional Nuclei of highly trained troops or fighter pilots (You could use the uneven scattering of privateers in the individual systems, but that's problematic for a varying number of reasons).

[ArcturusMengsk]

I think the OP is asking...

Palpatine starts the CIS, hands the reigns over to Dooku and ceases to interfer with his leadership.

Palaptine becomes Chancellor and leads the Republic against the CIS with no more involvement in the CIS whatsoever.

Almost like an intergalactic war game between the two Sith Lords.

Exactly. Everything up to and including the Battle of Geonosis occurs as per OT, but Palpatine does not interfere with the course of the war after that (basically acting as Chancellor but not benefitting the Republic through the use of knowledge acquired as Darth Sidious). On the CIS side, Dooku has complete control.

[Darth Fanboy]

Fed, but not soley dependent one. The Clone wars on their own vastly increased the power of the shroud (arguably to the point where it was self sustaining for the duration of the war).

When on the bridge of the Invisible Hand, Obi Wan felt the cloud that had darkened the Force (p 120 RoTS novelization) lift. In that moment of clarity he took control of the entire situation on the bridge. This is after the death of Dooku, but we later see in the novelization (p. 147) that there is still a darkness that hasn't lifted, this suggests that Palpatine has some form of direct control in this matter. If this is the case, then Palpatine no longer aiding the CIS would end up being a tremendous aid to the abilities of the Jedi.

That Palpatine might stop fuelling it? Maybe, but the war itself would still perpetuate it (rather like a kick-started chain reaction).

A widespread conflict even without palpatine's machinations is bound to have at least some adverse effects on Jedi abilities.

See my above lines.

Wars when the fighters fought on a smaller scale, The Sith Wars were over a few hundred planets, The Wars of the KOTOR era over even less (and the jedi were still bamboozled by Kun).

But they were wars in which the entire Jedi Order was involved and on occaision nearly exterminated.

Also, while people mention the Trade federation's build-up (ignoring the fact that they had droid crewed ships and "Security forces" regardless, that they builded up due to pirating activity and good old fashioned Greed), they seem to forget that without Palpatine the Republic would have no Clone Forces. No GAR means no proffesional Nuclei of highly trained troops or fighter pilots (You could use the uneven scattering of privateers in the individual systems, but that's problematic for a varying number of reasons).

But without Palpatine there is still a Republic, without him there is arguably no CIS. Also, Palpatine was NOT the developer of the Clone Army. Sifo Dyas was, the project was discovered and assumed by Sidious, but not initiated by him.

EDIT:

Pluralized the word "lines"

[Connor MacLeod]

The Shroud existed before the Clone Wars, and prevented the Jedi from anticipating the upcoming fight.

And you somehow believe that the factors that lead up to the Clone Wars breaking out (the hate, resentment, fear, etc.) sprang up spontaneously the minute war broke out on Geonosis?

This was fed largely in part by Sidious/Palpatine's influence. In the scenario suggested by the OP such influence would be negated would it not?

Why? It was Palpatine's manipulations that brought the Clone Wars (and thus the Shroud of the Dark side and Order 66) to pass. Why would those manipulations suddenly vanish because Palpy decides he's not going to continue actually manipulating the war once it actually comes about (IE "lets it run its course" as the OP indiated.)

Possibly, but the Jedi had fought in full scale wars in the past and succeeded, so I don't think one could count on the existence of a large scale war being enough.

The Shroud of the Dark Side was only one factor that lead to ORder 66. The clones were another part, the JEdi's arrogance, the fact they hadn't fought a war in centuries, etc. The Jedi abilities are redundant enough that they won't neccesarily be crippled by the Shroud alone (the "ill intent lacking in the clones" bit from the novel) and the fact that the Jedi are arrogant/complacent and haven't fought a real conflict in ages leaves them ultimately unprepared.

Like it or not the ROTS novel makes it plain that war "deepens" that Shroud. Nothing suggests that its some "galaxy wide force jamming" device that Palpatine was spontaneously genrating (as it seems some people are suggesting/have suggested.)

[Alexian Cale]

I think that it was Labyrinth of Evil as well as the RotS novelization that confirmed that the "shroud of the dark side", the intangible darkness that was dampening the Jedi's ability to "use the Force" in a manner of sensing and such (I don't think that it effected them, combat wise) was perpetrated and caused directly by Palpatine's existence. I know that LoE confirmed that, two hundred years before Darth Sidious's birth, the dark side had been gaining strength to facilitate the rise of "the one chosen to bring them out from hiding": Sidious himself.

The comic Sithisis shows Palpatine engaging in rituals of mass power that have ripple effects across the galaxy, increasing the bloodlust, ferocity, and even apprehensiveness in Jedi. It shows Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Yoda himself being changed by it.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Fed, but not soley dependent one. The Clone wars on their own vastly increased the power of the shroud (arguably to the point where it was self sustaining for the duration of the war).

When on the bridge of the Invisible Hand, Obi Wan felt the cloud that had darkened the Force (p 120 RoTS novelization) lift. In that moment of clarity he took control of the entire situation on the bridge. This is after the death of Dooku, but we later see in the novelization (p. 147) that there is still a darkness that hasn't lifted, this suggests that Palpatine has some form of direct control in this matter. If this is the case, then Palpatine no longer aiding the CIS would end up being a tremendous aid to the abilities of the Jedi.

No, it suggests that Palpatine can reduce the effects of the shroud in a small/localized scale on a pair of Jedi without the effects stretching any further.
Without him, the Shroud might have dissipated under normal circumstances, not during a war that intensified it, never mind the fact that it was apparently self perpetuating (Barring an extreme swing to the other end of the scale, such as a new "Turbo-power" Chosen one ending the Sith order).

That Palpatine might stop fuelling it? Maybe, but the war itself would still perpetuate it (rather like a kick-started chain reaction).

A widespread conflict even without palpatine's machinations is bound to have at least some adverse effects on Jedi abilities.

See my above lines.

As Connor said, why should the manipulations and the frickin war end just because Palpatine isn't feeding it as directly.

Wars when the fighters fought on a smaller scale, The Sith Wars were over a few hundred planets, The Wars of the KOTOR era over even less (and the jedi were still bamboozled by Kun).

But they were wars in which the entire Jedi Order was involved and on occaision nearly exterminated.

And the force-users we saw in KOTOR-2 was a walking scar in the force that could have resulted in the force itself disconnecting from the galaxy. Yeah, no effect on the ability of Jedi to use the force there. .

Also, while people mention the Trade federation's build-up (ignoring the fact that they had droid crewed ships and "Security forces" regardless, that they builded up due to pirating activity and good old fashioned Greed), they seem to forget that without Palpatine the Republic would have no Clone Forces. No GAR means no proffesional Nuclei of highly trained troops or fighter pilots (You could use the uneven scattering of privateers in the individual systems, but that's problematic for a varying number of reasons).

But without Palpatine there is still a Republic, without him there is arguably no CIS.

I'm sorry, who was the

"Charismatic Orator with a following on thousands of worlds and on Geonosis itself"

- Palpatine?
No, it was Count Dooku. (Who as the Episode 3 Novelization makes clear is the honourable, leader of the Confederacy, its exact "palpatine" counterpart.
And if you;re going to mention Grevious, the "Monster", don't bother, he was merely a powerful and terrifying Boogey-man General, who maintained power for his masters. He was not a power-figure or leader in his own right (To a far greater extent than even Vader, who at least had his Special task-force and a few palaces & Fortress worlds).

Also, Palpatine was NOT the developer of the Clone Army.

But he was the director. (Nevermind the fact that the changed scenario has this as happening after Geonosis).

Sifo Dyas was, the project was discovered and assumed by Sidious, but not initiated by him.

It was assumed by Sidious due to it saving time for him, he would have started a war anyway, Sifo-Dyas merely saved him a few years and served as a useful test of his accomplices resolve.

[Darth Fanboy]

And you somehow believe that the factors that lead up to the Clone Wars breaking out (the hate, resentment, fear, etc.) sprang up spontaneously the minute war broke out on Geonosis?

Why? It was Palpatine's manipulations that brought the Clone Wars (and thus the Shroud of the Dark side and Order 66) to pass. Why would those manipulations suddenly vanish because Palpy decides he's not going to continue actually manipulating the war once it actually comes about (IE "lets it run its course" as the OP indiated.)[/quote]

My response to these lines would be the same as my previous post's response. The scenes aboard the bridge of the Invisible hand suggest that Palpatine has some influence in this matter. The book says outright that Obi Wan is feeling the Force in a way that has not been possible in recent years. Later when he is on the ground though, he notes during his conversation with Mace Windu that he can still sense a great darkness in the Force. This seems to indicate that Palpatine let things clear up on the bridge for Obi Wan to help get him out of the Invisible Hand with his charade intact.

The Shroud of the Dark Side was only one factor that lead to ORder 66. The clones were another part, the JEdi's arrogance, the fact they hadn't fought a war in centuries, etc. The Jedi abilities are redundant enough that they won't neccesarily be crippled by the Shroud alone (the "ill intent lacking in the clones" bit from the novel) and the fact that the Jedi are arrogant/complacent and haven't fought a real conflict in ages leaves them ultimately unprepared.

Like it or not the ROTS novel makes it plain that war "deepens" that Shroud. Nothing suggests that its some "galaxy wide force jamming" device that Palpatine was spontaneously genrating (as it seems some people are suggesting/have suggested.)

Of course it was only but a factor for Order 66, but the point of the OP is to predict a winner in a Clone War minus the interference of Sidious.

I never suggested that it had any kind of Force jamming effect, but it had negative effects on the Jedi. The RoTS novelization shows how the Jedi Council even felt its effects. No longer able to come to a decision by meditating with the Force, they were subject to internal debate better suited for politicians. The Jedi were unable to adequately predict the sheer scale of the Clone Wars, save for Sifo Dyas. I am sure that if the Jedi Council had known what was going on at Geonosis, or were able to have some insight through the Force, that more would have been done prior to Geonosis. Mace Windu even says in Episode II that the JEdi's abilities are diminished, and he even goes so far as to consider informing the Senate with this painful revelation.

I disagree that the Jedi were "entirely unprepared" for this conflict. Not all Jedi were ready to become Generals in the Republic Military, but some such as Anakin and Obi Wan, took to the task readily and ably. It has been mentioned in the EU that the Jedi were called upon to serve as Generals because they were the only group with enough military experience to do so.

[Darth Fanboy]

No, it suggests that Palpatine can reduce the effects of the shroud in a small/localized scale on a pair of Jedi without the effects stretching any further.

[EDIT: HIt submit instead of preview before this section was finished, mea culpa ~ DF]

How do you know the effects didn't stretch further. What makes more sense, the Shroud being temporarily lifted or Palpatine putting Anakin and Obi Wan in some kind of bubble without them noticing.

The simplest explanation is that he lifted the shroud temporarily (at least partially, or for just long enough), which allowed Obi Wan exactly what he needed in that situation. It seems far more convoluted to have Palpatine using some sort of Force ability without either of the two Jedi near him at the time noticing it.

[End Edit]

As Connor said, why should the manipulations and the frickin war end just because Palpatine isn't feeding it as directly.

Because Palpatine is a direct influence on it. His manipulations and schemes are a big contributor. Without him feeding the flames behind the scenes then there are fewer plots working against the Jedi, and the Jedi are free to go about fighting the war, and will be far more effective in doing so.

And the force-users we saw in KOTOR-2 was a walking scar in the force that could have resulted in the force itself disconnecting from the galaxy. Yeah, no effect on the ability of Jedi to use the force there. .

And despite all that, they still fucking won right? Oh no the Mandalorians actually must have conquered the galaxy, sorry about that.

Also, while people mention the Trade federation's build-up (ignoring the fact that they had droid crewed ships and "Security forces" regardless, that they builded up due to pirating activity and good old fashioned Greed), they seem to forget that without Palpatine the Republic would have no Clone Forces. No GAR means no proffesional Nuclei of highly trained troops or fighter pilots (You could use the uneven scattering of privateers in the individual systems, but that's problematic for a varying number of reasons).

I'm sorry, who was the

"Charismatic Orator with a following on thousands of worlds and on Geonosis itself"

- Palpatine?
No, it was Count Dooku. (Who as the Episode 3 Novelization makes clear is the honourable, leader of the Confederacy, its exact "palpatine" counterpart.

And who converted Dooku to the Dark Side? Who put him up to the task? Newsflash, he was doing it at the behest of Sidious. Dooku was an excellent public face and helped put the CIS together, but he wouldn't have done so if his new Master had not told him to do so.

And if you;re going to mention Grevious, the "Monster", don't bother, he was merely a powerful and terrifying Boogey-man General, who maintained power for his masters. He was not a power-figure or leader in his own right (To a far greater extent than even Vader, who at least had his Special task-force and a few palaces & Fortress worlds).

I only mentioned Grievous very early on in this thread when I remarked at how he wouldn't have even become the cyborg General without Dooku. So I don't know what the hell this rant is about.

It was assumed by Sidious due to it saving time for him, he would have started a war anyway, Sifo-Dyas merely saved him a few years and served as a useful test of his accomplices resolve.

The reason I brought this up is because it was argued that without Palpatine there would be no clone army. This was not the case. Your point here does nothing to change the fact that Sifo Dyas was the originator behind the Clone Army, which means that there still would have been an army, although the template would likely have been different.

[The Grim Squeaker]

No, it suggests that Palpatine can reduce the effects of the shroud in a small/localized scale on a pair of Jedi without the effects stretching any further.

[EDIT: HIt submit instead of preview before this section was finished, mea culpa ~ DF]

How do you know the effects didn't stretch further.

The fact that we see no other Jedi, Yoda included commenting on it. (In fact, Mace/Yoda mention to Obi-Wan right after the Councellor's "Rescue" that the Shroud has Not lifted).

What makes more sense, the Shroud being temporarily lifted or Palpatine putting Anakin and Obi Wan in some kind of bubble without them noticing.

Except that Obi-Wan DID notice, and yet not other Jedi "did". The Bubble or local effect makes more sense.

The simplest explanation is that he lifted the shroud temporarily (at least partially, or for just long enough), which allowed Obi Wan exactly what he needed in that situation. It seems far more convoluted to have Palpatine using some sort of Force ability without either of the two Jedi near him at the time noticing it.

Rather Like Yoda and the Jedi council not noticing that he was a "Black Hole" in the Force? Jedi can sense other, powerful force users, and can cloak themselves, and Obi-Wan Kenobi is no Yoda.

As Connor said, why should the manipulations and the frickin war end just because Palpatine isn't feeding it as directly.

Because Palpatine is a direct influence on it. His manipulations and schemes are a big contributor. Without him feeding the flames behind the scenes then there are fewer plots working against the Jedi, and the Jedi are free to go about fighting the war, and will be far more effective in doing so.

He hindered the effectiveness of the Confederates to an arguably greater degree, he prevented a number of strikes that would have crippled the Republic's warmaking capability before they could fully mobilize.
For example: an attack on Kamino by a famed Mon-Calamari Commander (SW:Republic comics) that would have destroyed it and the cloning tanks and a significant portion of the Clone army trainers (Officers), templates & Genetic templates. Dooku and Palaptine sabotaged it, in order to keep the war from ending too quickly (They wanted a slow war of attrition, which actually favoured the larger Republic).

And the force-users we saw in KOTOR-2 was a walking scar in the force that could have resulted in the force itself disconnecting from the galaxy. Yeah, no effect on the ability of Jedi to use the force there. .

And despite all that, they still fucking won right? Oh no the Mandalorians actually must have conquered the galaxy, sorry about that.

Oh yes, the Mandalorians who were stopped by the Armies of the Republic and the Great Jedi master Darth Re- Oh, sorry, Since when is a Sith lord leading the Republic to victory a jedi? . (Or the fact that the Mass Shadow generator turning the Mandalorian fleet into a pile of Mountain-rubble had something to do with it as well, another Dark-side artifact).

Also, while people mention the Trade federation's build-up (ignoring the fact that they had droid crewed ships and "Security forces" regardless, that they builded up due to pirating activity and good old fashioned Greed), they seem to forget that without Palpatine the Republic would have no Clone Forces. No GAR means no proffesional Nuclei of highly trained troops or fighter pilots (You could use the uneven scattering of privateers in the individual systems, but that's problematic for a varying number of reasons).

I'm sorry, who was the

"Charismatic Orator with a following on thousands of worlds and on Geonosis itself"

- Palpatine?
No, it was Count Dooku. (Who as the Episode 3 Novelization makes clear is the honourable, leader of the Confederacy, its exact "palpatine" counterpart.

And who converted Dooku to the Dark Side? Who put him up to the task?

And all of this happened BEFOREHAND. If we're pushing things back, don't forget how the great Leadership of Qui-Gon-Jin might have helped the Republic .

Newsflash, he was doing it at the behest of Sidious. Dooku was an excellent public face and helped put the CIS together, but he wouldn't have done so if his new Master had not told him to do so.

Yup, and now the scneario follows that.
You're ignoring my point about how Dooku led and managed the Confederacy, he was its beloved leader, its figurehead, its moral exemplar. He did not need Palpatine for that, especially not by the time of AOTC when the Nemodians had been welded to his cause.

And if you;re going to mention Grevious, the "Monster", don't bother, he was merely a powerful and terrifying Boogey-man General, who maintained power for his masters. He was not a power-figure or leader in his own right (To a far greater extent than even Vader, who at least had his Special task-force and a few palaces & Fortress worlds).

I only mentioned Grievous very early on in this thread when I remarked at how he wouldn't have even become the cyborg General without Dooku. So I don't know what the hell this rant is about.

Sorry, I thought that you were going to go on another angle at this, and tried to anticipate it. Mea Culpa.

It was assumed by Sidious due to it saving time for him, he would have started a war anyway, Sifo-Dyas merely saved him a few years and served as a useful test of his accomplices resolve.

The reason I brought this up is because it was argued that without Palpatine there would be no clone army. This was not the case.

No Clone army allowed to be built, funded and raised without Anyone noticing it. (Remember, Dooku scrubbed the Jedi archives before leaving, and Palpatine continued siphoning off additional funds from his own resources. Unless you think that those LAAT's & Acclamators were also built on Kamino).

Your point here does nothing to change the fact that Sifo Dyas was the originator behind the Clone Army, which means that there still would have been an army, although the template would likely have been different.

I'll conceed that there would have been some sort of Clone army, but it wouldn't have neccesarily been one equipped, trained and numerous enough for the scales needed to fight Quintillions of Droids, or that it would have gone unnoticed by, say, Confederate spies or Bankers. (Dooku himself knew about it, and could have organized a sneak attack on Kamino before the Clone army was grown or defended, heck he might have simply bought it with his stupendous wealth assuming a decent degree of corruption)

[Darth Fanboy]

The fact that we see no other Jedi, Yoda included commenting on it. (In fact, Mace/Yoda mention to Obi-Wan right after the Councellor's "Rescue" that the Shroud has Not lifted)

Except that Obi-Wan DID notice, and yet not other Jedi "did". The Bubble or local effect makes more sense.

Rather Like Yoda and the Jedi council not noticing that he was a "Black Hole" in the Force? Jedi can sense other, powerful force users, and can cloak themselves, and Obi-Wan Kenobi is no Yoda.

We are never given another opportunity to see, as both the movie and novelization do not give us any look at any other Jedi. We cannot say that any other Jedi did not notice because we never get the opportunity. IF the power in my building goes out, I do not claim that none of the other buildings are also without power, simply because I do not see them.

Now I bolded that specific line because it brings me back to which explanation is simpler. You are even saying yourself that Jedi can sense other powerful Force users. So if Palpatine, who is trying to conceal his Force sensitive nature is actively using the Force to create some sort of location specific bubble as you suggest, then it increases the likelihood of Anakin or Obi Wan noticing something. It seems more reasonable to me that Sidious just ceases exterting whatever influence he has over the Shroud and simply maintains hiding his Force presence.

He hindered the effectiveness of the Confederates to an arguably greater degree, he prevented a number of strikes that would have crippled the Republic's warmaking capability before they could fully mobilize.
For example: an attack on Kamino by a famed Mon-Calamari Commander (SW:Republic comics) that would have destroyed it and the cloning tanks and a significant portion of the Clone army trainers (Officers), templates & Genetic templates. Dooku and Palaptine sabotaged it, in order to keep the war from ending too quickly (They wanted a slow war of attrition, which actually favoured the larger Republic).

A battle that would not have even been fought if Palpatine had not orchestrated it, through Dooku and I believe Passel Argente, to begin with. Name one other instance aside from the Battle of Kamino where we see Sidious and Dooku setting up the Separatists to fail prior to RoTS, when Sidious completes his personal objectives and then hangs the entire CIS out to dry. Due to the OP's scenario, Palpatine will not be able to orchestrate Utapau or Mustafar.

And the force-users we saw in KOTOR-2 was a walking scar in the force that could have resulted in the force itself disconnecting from the galaxy. Yeah, no effect on the ability of Jedi to use the force there. .

Oh yes, the Mandalorians who were stopped by the Armies of the Republic and the Great Jedi master Darth Re- Oh, sorry, Since when is a Sith lord leading the Republic to victory a jedi?

A war that the Republic and Jedi Won, after which the Jedi Council and Republic considered Revan a hero. Revan did not turn to the Sith until after the war was over. For the purposes of this scenario, whatever happens to the Jedi or Republic after the war is over is meaningless. We are only concerned with one side winning the conflict.

. (Or the fact that the Mass Shadow generator turning the Mandalorian fleet into a pile of Mountain-rubble had something to do with it as well, another Dark-side artifact).

The Mass Shadow Generator was NOT a dark side artifact, it was created by Bao-Dur, working for the Republic.

Also, while people mention the Trade federation's build-up (ignoring the fact that they had droid crewed ships and "Security forces" regardless, that they builded up due to pirating activity and good old fashioned Greed), they seem to forget that without Palpatine the Republic would have no Clone Forces. No GAR means no proffesional Nuclei of highly trained troops or fighter pilots (You could use the uneven scattering of privateers in the individual systems, but that's problematic for a varying number of reasons).

And all of this happened BEFOREHAND. If we're pushing things back, don't forget how the great Leadership of Qui-Gon-Jin might have helped the Republic .

You're ignoring my point about how Dooku led and managed the Confederacy, he was its beloved leader, its figurehead, its moral exemplar. He did not need Palpatine for that, especially not by the time of AOTC when the Nemodians had been welded to his cause.

Yup, and now the scneario follows that.

My point is that Dooku will not be as effective against the Jedi or the Republic military without Sidious' aid. At this point, he does not have the inside information to wage an effective war against the Entire Jedi Order, or against Palpatine who Dooku admits readily is more powerful than he is.

Sorry, I thought that you were going to go on another angle at this, and tried to anticipate it. Mea Culpa.

No worries.

It was assumed by Sidious due to it saving time for him, he would have started a war anyway, Sifo-Dyas merely saved him a few years and served as a useful test of his accomplices resolve.

I'll conceed that there would have been some sort of Clone army,

but it wouldn't have neccesarily been one equipped, trained and numerous enough for the scales needed to fight Quintillions of Droids, or that it would have gone unnoticed by, say, Confederate spies or Bankers. (Dooku himself knew about it, and could have organized a sneak attack on Kamino before the Clone army was grown or defended, heck he might have simply bought it with his stupendous wealth assuming a decent degree of corruption)

When Sidious and Dooku discovered the army, Sidious commanded to "let the order stand." It isn't as if Sifo Dyas ordered some value meal at a drive through arms dealer and Sidious asked to Super Size it. The army would have had a different template and not much else in the way of difference. Dooku's knowledge of Kamino would be tempered by Sidious knowing that he knows, and knowing full well an attack would be futile.

[The Grim Squeaker]

The fact that we see no other Jedi, Yoda included commenting on it. (In fact, Mace/Yoda mention to Obi-Wan right after the Councellor's "Rescue" that the Shroud has Not lifted)

Except that Obi-Wan DID notice, and yet not other Jedi "did". The Bubble or local effect makes more sense.

Rather Like Yoda and the Jedi council not noticing that he was a "Black Hole" in the Force? Jedi can sense other, powerful force users, and can cloak themselves, and Obi-Wan Kenobi is no Yoda.

We are never given another opportunity to see, as both the movie and novelization do not give us any look at any other Jedi.

We see the Jedi council immediately after the IH crashes, and no-one comments on the shroud lifting somehow (Even when commenting on the Shroud's activities later on).

We cannot say that any other Jedi did not notice because we never get the opportunity. IF the power in my building goes out, I do not claim that none of the other buildings are also without power, simply because I do not see them.

If a power cut hits the hospital's generators and my ward suddenly gains power, saving my patients lives, wouldn't the other wards comment on suddenly gaining their power back?
The fact is, that it's illogical (Occams razor) that no-one else would fail to notice the shroud lifting for them, and its easier to assume that Palaptine caused a localized effect rather than stopping the effects of the Clone wars on the force "temporarily" without anyone else noticing.

Now I bolded that specific line because it brings me back to which explanation is simpler. You are even saying yourself that Jedi can sense other powerful Force users. So if Palpatine, who is trying to conceal his Force sensitive nature is actively using the Force to create some sort of location specific bubble as you suggest, then it increases the likelihood of Anakin or Obi Wan noticing something. It seems more reasonable to me that Sidious just ceases exterting whatever influence he has over the Shroud and simply maintains hiding his Force presence.

We've seen that Palpatine can easily hide his ability to use the force from the entire Jedi council, and Obi-Wan is less suspicious than Mace Windu, less perceptive than Yoda and less powerful than either of them.
Palaptine would hardly need to worry about him (Especially not when the Jedi are exhausted by their fight with Dooku) if he can bamboozle Yoda in this exact regard even without the effects of the shroud.

He hindered the effectiveness of the Confederates to an arguably greater degree, he prevented a number of strikes that would have crippled the Republic's warmaking capability before they could fully mobilize.
For example: an attack on Kamino by a famed Mon-Calamari Commander (SW:Republic comics) that would have destroyed it and the cloning tanks and a significant portion of the Clone army trainers (Officers), templates & Genetic templates. Dooku and Palaptine sabotaged it, in order to keep the war from ending too quickly (They wanted a slow war of attrition, which actually favoured the larger Republic).

A battle that would not have even been fought if Palpatine had not orchestrated it, through Dooku and I believe Passel Argente, to begin with.

Are you seriously saying that the Confederates would not have attacked Kamino without Palaptine's machinations? I hope that I'm mis-reading you on this...

Name one other instance aside from the Battle of Kamino where we see Sidious and Dooku setting up the Separatists to fail prior to RoTS, when Sidious completes his personal objectives and then hangs the entire CIS out to dry.

Why? I've given a major example that would have severely tipped the balance of the war, and would have happened without P' (Dooku knew about Kamino, he even had traitors there working for him who almost sabotaged the Clones). As I see it, the burden of proof is on you.

Regardless, another example? How about Palpatine sabotaging attempts to deal with the corruption in the Republic (The corruption leading to more support for the CIS). [SW Republic comics, it's a story that takes place over a number of years].

Due to the OP's scenario, Palpatine will not be able to orchestrate Utapau or Mustafar.

And had the CIS managed to substantially damage the Republic at the start of the war, when they had a great advantage in arms and "men" (As well as a head start in logarithmic growth due to droids), then there might have been no need. (And again, the CIS did capture Palpatine, and could have killed him were it not for Dooku's orders, blasting the Chancellors apartment from space would work quite well after all).

A war that the Republic and Jedi Won, after which the Jedi Council and Republic considered Revan a hero. Revan did not turn to the Sith until after the war was over. For the purposes of this scenario, whatever happens to the Jedi or Republic after the war is over is meaningless. We are only concerned with one side winning the conflict.

Exact proof that Revan used the darkside only after the war? (Remember Malachor V? Giant Shadow-mass engine? An entire planet tainted with the power of the dark-side?).
I'm gonna need to see your proof on the time of Revan's conversion, and a damn good claim on the Malachor V incident.

The Mass Shadow Generator was NOT a dark side artifact, it was created by Bao-Dur, working for the Republic.

How is a force adept creating a super-weapon under the orders of a dark-side users, that causes visible pain in force users from it's mere existence (within its planetary system), not a dark side artifact? It certainly sounds like it fits the description to me, just look at what it did to Malachor itself, and the mental effects on visitors (Paranoia, aggression).

My point is that Dooku will not be as effective against the Jedi or the Republic military without Sidious' aid.

Could you just clear up for me the time-period you're reffering to? (The OP or the new "Post Geonosis condition?).

At this point, he does not have the inside information to wage an effective war against the Entire Jedi Order

He has turned Jedi masters (And raises more quickly afterwards).

, or against Palpatine who Dooku admits readily is more powerful than he is.

Orbital bombardment is a wonderful equalizers

When Sidious and Dooku discovered the army, Sidious commanded to "let the order stand."

I trust you on this, but are you sure that that is the exact quote?

It isn't as if Sifo Dyas ordered some value meal at a drive through arms dealer and Sidious asked to Super Size it. The army would have had a different template and not much else in the way of difference.

Support craft in the republic and preparedness in organization. The troop carriers and space fleet required for carrying the troops and for the fleets at Geonosis not only had to come from somewhere, they needed a military/authorized crew, they needed to be ordered, they needed to be ordered to Kamino, they needed the Chancellor of the republic to order the movement of such a massive quantity of supplies and men in a minute time-frame. (This is a society that hasn't had a war in millenia, do you expect Yoda to be able to organize the forces for a "private", secret army without the help of someone possesing official power? Unlikely, to say the least).

Dooku's knowledge of Kamino would be tempered by Sidious knowing that he knows, and knowing full well an attack would be futile.

Why the hell should it be futile? The attack on Kamino almost succeeded after Dooku sabotaged it, after the war had started and it was one of the most important planets in the war effort. Before the war, it would be childs play to dispatch a Flotilla of Banking clan frigates and a Droid Control ship to the planet. (How much force could Palpatine muster for a planet that he himself needs to keep hidden).

[Darth Fanboy]

We see the Jedi council immediately after the IH crashes, and no-one comments on the shroud lifting somehow (Even when commenting on the Shroud's activities later on).

But we do see Yoda prior to the attack in LoE as able to sense the presence of Darth Sidious on Coruscant, just as the attack begins.

The fact is, that it's illogical (Occams razor) that no-one else would fail to notice the shroud lifting for them, and its easier to assume that Palaptine caused a localized effect rather than stopping the effects of the Clone wars on the force "temporarily" without anyone else noticing.

All without Obi Wan and Anakin noticing anything? I doubt it.

We've seen that Palpatine can easily hide his ability to use the force from the entire Jedi council, and Obi-Wan is less suspicious than Mace Windu, less perceptive than Yoda and less powerful than either of them.
Palaptine would hardly need to worry about him (Especially not when the Jedi are exhausted by their fight with Dooku) if he can bamboozle Yoda in this exact regard even without the effects of the shroud.

Never while he was actively using the Force.

Are you seriously saying that the Confederates would not have attacked Kamino without Palaptine's machinations? I hope that I'm mis-reading you on this...

The fake intelligence, the idea to get rid of the Mon Cal commander Merai who would have opposed the CIS later on, the fact that we see Sidious discussing these plans with Dooku at the end of the storyline with Dooku acknowledging his Master. How can you NOT think that he (Sidious) was behind it.

Why? I've given a major example that would have severely tipped the balance of the war, and would have happened without P' (Dooku knew about Kamino, he even had traitors there working for him who almost sabotaged the Clones). As I see it, the burden of proof is on you.

You have given one example, which happened once. There are no other instances in the entirety of the EU where we see Sidious nerfing the Separatists. Meanwhile:

Outbound Flight: Sidious orders Trade Federation Forces to take out the Outbound Flight project.

Attack on Bail Organa (accused of, but evidence limited for): arranging the pirate attacks on Bail Organa to influence passage of the Enhanced Security and Enforcement Act. Subsequently, the assasination of Finis Valorum trhough Dooku who arranged the assasination via the Anzati.

Battle of Merson: Sidious orders the CIS to wipe out the Jedi led army because Master Ronhar Kim and his padawan had devised a way to discover his true identity

Jedi Trial: Palpatine maneuvers Republic Forces to the Outer Rim and fails to reinforce Praesitlyn, Praesitlyn is invaded at the Intergalactic Communications center is taken.

LoE/RoTS: Palpatine maneuvers forces to the Outer Rim, Seps attack Coruscant under hte direction of Grievous, who recieves orders directly from Sidious.

LoE/RoTS: Grievous is given access and Knowledge of security protocols designed to protect the Supreme Chancellor and uses this information to "abduct" Palpatine.

Regardless, another example? How about Palpatine sabotaging attempts to deal with the corruption in the Republic (The corruption leading to more support for the CIS). [SW Republic comics, it's a story that takes place over a number of years].

Palpatine sabotaging attempts to deal with corruption. Corruption which helps the CIS. This explains your side how? This is Palpatine working against the Republic if he is negelecting to prevent corruption.

And had the CIS managed to substantially damage the Republic at the start of the war, when they had a great advantage in arms and "men" (As well as a head start in logarithmic growth due to droids), then there might have been no need.

I acknowledge the Droid Army being an expedient and effective way to raise an army, but I do not believe that they would be sufficient to deal with a Jedi Order not facing an enemy from within their own government.

(And again, the CIS did capture Palpatine, and could have killed him were it not for Dooku's orders, blasting the Chancellors apartment from space would work quite well after all).

You think that Grievous captured Palpatine without any help at all from Sidious? Are you fucking kidding? The whole plan to abduct the Chancellor was Sidious' own idea! (RoTS novelization if you don't believe me)

And the force-users we saw in KOTOR-2 was a walking scar in the force that could have resulted in the force itself disconnecting from the galaxy. Yeah, no effect on the ability of Jedi to use the force there. .

I'm gonna need to see your proof on the time of Revan's conversion, and a damn good claim on the Malachor V incident.

How is a force adept creating a super-weapon under the orders of a dark-side users, that causes visible pain in force users from it's mere existence (within its planetary system), not a dark side artifact? It certainly sounds like it fits the description to me, just look at what it did to Malachor itself, and the mental effects on visitors (Paranoia, aggression).

The New Essential Chronology IIRC has Revan becoming a Sith and leading the Sith Empire after his victory in the Mandalorian Wars. Also, had Revan turned to the Sith during the War, would the Jedi have even followed him? The Sith Empire surfaced after the conflict. I reiterative though, regardless of what happened to Revan, it was still a military conflict won by the Jedi and the Republic. Revan may not have been an idea Jedi, but at the time he still fought for the Republic.

Now we continue with your complete ignorance on the Malachor V battle, because at the time Bao Dur was not a Force Adept, and was not trained in the Force in any way until the events of KOTOR II. This is all in the game itself. As for the Mass Shadow Generator, it was a weapon, he built it. That is all there is too it, just because the weapon caused a "wound in the Force" doesn't make the technology Dark Side in nature. Maybe the Death Star was based on the Dark Side, because Obi Wan nearly crapped his pants when he felt the millions of voices crying out.

Before the war in the original timeline there is no need to defend the planet. In this scenario Dooku knows the location, but Sidious knows that he knows. The place will undoubtedly be more defended, and if you do not believe that you would give Sidious the tactical ability of a drunken moron.

[Connor MacLeod]

My response to these lines would be the same as my previous post's response. The scenes aboard the bridge of the Invisible hand suggest that Palpatine has some influence in this matter. The book says outright that Obi Wan is feeling the Force in a way that has not been possible in recent years. Later when he is on the ground though, he notes during his conversation with Mace Windu that he can still sense a great darkness in the Force. This seems to indicate that Palpatine let things clear up on the bridge for Obi Wan to help get him out of the Invisible Hand with his charade intact.

So basically your entire "proof" is that Because the Shroud for unknown reasons "lifted" for Obi-Wan at a particular moment, the ONLY answer is PALPATINE CONTROLS THE ENTIRE SHRHOUD OF THE DARKSIDE!!! Can you explain to me how this does NOT constitute a "Leap in Logic" fallacy? Are you seriously goign to tell me that NO OTHER POSSIBLE EXPLANATIONS could cover it? (IE that the Shroud does not consistently or completely cover every aspect of the galaxy, that it can wax and wane, or that some OTHER Non-Palpatininan influence might for its own reasons chose to deliberately weaken or strengthen it of its own accord?) Or are you just trying to give or inflate Palpatine's abilities for no discernable reason?

Of course it was only but a factor for Order 66, but the point of the OP is to predict a winner in a Clone War minus the interference of Sidious.

No the point is you've failed to indicate that Palpatine's noninterference will somehow impact the "Shroud of the Darkside" in the manner and scope you claim. If needed I *can* provide the quote frmo the ROTS novelization to back up my point, and it doesn't look as if you have any proof to match it. What do you think that says, hm?

I never suggested that it had any kind of Force jamming effect, but it had negative effects on the Jedi. The RoTS novelization shows how the Jedi Council even felt its effects. No longer able to come to a decision by meditating with the Force, they were subject to internal debate better suited for politicians. The Jedi were unable to adequately predict the sheer scale of the Clone Wars, save for Sifo Dyas. I am sure that if the Jedi Council had known what was going on at Geonosis, or were able to have some insight through the Force, that more would have been done prior to Geonosis. Mace Windu even says in Episode II that the JEdi's abilities are diminished, and he even goes so far as to consider informing the Senate with this painful revelation.

Yes, it did impact the Jedi's abilities to some extent. I never contested that. I am contesting that its effects were due to some wanktastic ability of Palaptines'.

I disagree that the Jedi were "entirely unprepared" for this conflict. Not all Jedi were ready to become Generals in the Republic Military, but some such as Anakin and Obi Wan, took to the task readily and ably. It has been mentioned in the EU that the Jedi were called upon to serve as Generals because they were the only group with enough military experience to do so.

Fine, ,they were "mostly unprepared" for the War. They weren't good tacticians or Warriors (as MAce Windu said and was demonstrated at Geonosis)), their Force abilities were hampered to some degree, and they weren't very well prepared to face off against the Sith again (IE Maul or dooku, much less Palpatine.) Doesn't change the conclusion much. Their arrogance and complacency lead to their downfall. Had some of them been just a bit more perceptive (particularily Mace And Yoda in their treatment of Anakin) things probably wouldn't have turned out as badly.

[Darth Fanboy]

So basically your entire "proof" is that Because the Shroud for unknown reasons "lifted" for Obi-Wan at a particular moment, the ONLY answer is PALPATINE CONTROLS THE ENTIRE SHRHOUD OF THE DARKSIDE!!! Can you explain to me how this does NOT constitute a "Leap in Logic" fallacy?

I said he has influence over it, at least to some degree, the leap in logic here is your distorting my position.

Are you seriously goign to tell me that NO OTHER POSSIBLE EXPLANATIONS could cover it? (IE that the Shroud does not consistently or completely cover every aspect of the galaxy, that it can wax and wane, or that some OTHER Non-Palpatininan influence might for its own reasons chose to deliberately weaken or strengthen it of its own accord?) Or are you just trying to give or inflate Palpatine's abilities for no discernable reason?

For one moment, on the Invisible Hand, Obi Wan feels a stronger connection to the Force than he has since the beginning of the Clone Wars. But only for that brief moment when Palpatine's life is in danger, and then afterwards it is over.

If you can offer another explanation as to why this happened at that specific moment, given all of the circumstances surrounding the events aboard the Invisible Hand.

No the point is you've failed to indicate that Palpatine's noninterference will somehow impact the "Shroud of the Darkside" in the manner and scope you claim. If needed I *can* provide the quote frmo the ROTS novelization to back up my point, and it doesn't look as if you have any proof to match it. What do you think that says, hm?

Then you should be providing this evidence, rather than claiming that you have it. If it proves that i'm wrong i'll admit that. But you haven't exactly provided much of anything except your disagreeing. Meanwhile, i'm interpreting the RoTS novel and movie the way I see it and so far am not convinced of anything otherwise. But as I said, provide evidence, and if it fits better than my own explanation, I'll accept it.

As far as manner and scope. I believe that after Geonosis, Sidious actively continued influencing events so that they would increase the impact of the Shroud while also increasing the number of plots against the Jedi. If Palpatine is not feeding this during the war, it lessens the effect and helps the Jedi.

Yes, it did impact the Jedi's abilities to some extent. I never contested that. I am contesting that its effects were due to some wanktastic ability of Palaptines'.

If I led you to think that it was entirely due to some ability I apologize. Although I do think Palpatine can exert some influence, as I believe he did on the Invisisble Hand, I also think that his machinations during the war have plenty to do with it as well.

Fine, ,they were "mostly unprepared" for the War. They weren't good tacticians or Warriors (as MAce Windu said and was demonstrated at Geonosis)), their Force abilities were hampered to some degree, and they weren't very well prepared to face off against the Sith again (IE Maul or dooku, much less Palpatine.)

This I can agree with, but I think that once the war broke out they started to adapt quickly enough. There are after all a few Jedi in the order well suited to this effort. But in this scenario we have a Palpatine who will be completely on the side of the Republic. This will lead to the war being managed much more effectively by the Republic. The Jedi won't be sent through the traps and meat grinders set up by Sidious that were designed for the purpose of killing Jedi.

Doesn't change the conclusion much. Their arrogance and complacency lead to their downfall. Had some of them been just a bit more perceptive (particularily Mace And Yoda in their treatment of Anakin) things probably wouldn't have turned out as badly.

The downfall of the Jedi after the war in this case is irrelevant, only the outcome of the fight between Republic and CIS militaries. Doesn't matter if one thousand or one Jedi survives, or even if any turn to the Dark Side afterwards.

[Connor MacLeod]

Fine, the bloody quote:

What is happening right now is why the Clone Wars were fought in the first place. It is their reason for existence. The Clone Wars have always been, in and of themselves, from their very inception, the revenge of the Sith.
They were irresistible bait. They took place in remote loca­tions, on planets that belonged, primarily, to "somebody else." They were fought by expendable proxies. And they were con­structed as a win-win situation.
The Clone Wars were the perfect Jedi trap.
By fighting at all, the Jedi lost.
With the Jedi Order overextended, spread thin across the galaxy, each Jedi is alone, surrounded only by whatever clone troops he, she, or it commands. War itself pours darkness into the Force, deepening the cloud that limits Jedi perception. And the clones have no malice, no hatred, not the slightest ill intent that might give warning. They are only following orders.

There. We have evidencee for the Shroud being influenced by the Clone Wars itself, (and indirectly through Palpatine's manipulations) but nothing about Palpy magically augmenting it through his own powers (or mysteriously "nullifying" it for Obi-Wan, which begs the question of how Palpy could constantly be shrouding the Force locally much less on a galactic scale and have not one single Jedi notice in 10+ years.)

[Darth Fanboy]

Fine, the bloody quote:

I'm sorry if my asking you to provide evidence was too much exertion, but i'm sure you would do the same thing were the roles reversed.

Snip

I'm willing to concede the viewpoint regarding the fight aboard the Invivisble Hand, because I do not really have much else to back up that particular point other than the description of Obi Wan's Force Connection. But however, you have just said in this post.

(and indirectly through Palpatine's manipulations)

Even you agree that Palpatine is having an effect on the shroud via his Machinations. Now, the passage is referring to the Clone Wars in retrospect as the "perfect Jedi trap." Since the original scenario has Palpatine and Dooku splitting prior to the Clone Wars, then it is entirely reasonable that the Clone Wars never become the Jedi trap that they were in the original timeline. With Palpatine controlling the Republic and no longer scheming against the Jedi manipulating both sides of the war, the Jedi do not suffer as greatly. This makes the Jedi considerably more effective at defeating the CIS. Sure, there will be a negative effect, but not nearly as pronounced, and even with the effect the Jedi will not be like blind lambs being led to a slughter in how they conduct the war.

So while I cannot effectively argue for any possible assistance Palpatine may have given on the Invisible Hand, this passage does show how Palpatine's manipulations had an incredibly detrimental effect on the Jedi, and with the scenario removing those manipulations, then the Jedi will eventually defeat the CIS.