Gandalf the white vs yoda AOTC

[Admiral Valdemar]

PS. Stop assuming that magical > technological. I'm sick of that assumption; you must always justify it. And if you blow apart a Balrog with high explosives, it doesn't fucking matter whether he's made of fire; he has no physical body, and dissipates. Goodbye.

Woah there, calm down! No-one said that wouldn't happen, but you're assuming too much as well. Maybe a C4 or FAE charge delivered internally would end the Balrog's life pretty quickly, maybe not.

But when you debate Eru that's a whole story, same with Gandalf since they are gods.

[Morat]

How much of this stuff took place in LOTR or the Hobbit, and how much of it is documented in the apocrypha?

Are you suggesting that the Silmarillion, et al have no canon standing?

Besides, much of what we know comes from and/or is confirmed by Tolkiens letters, which he was circulating prior to his death.

[Darth Wong]

Woah there, calm down! No-one said that wouldn't happen, but you're assuming too much as well. Maybe a C4 or FAE charge delivered internally would end the Balrog's life pretty quickly, maybe not.

Then you are assuming virtual invincibility on the part of the Balrog, which YOU have to justify, not me. You can't just appeal to uncertainty and assume that this somehow supports your position.

But when you debate Eru that's a whole story, same with Gandalf since they are gods.

I'll reserve judgement on that until the point where I see them demonstrate godlike powers. Oops; they never do that in the LOTR, do they? Instead, we have a lot of apocrypha. If we go by apocrypha of ancient tales, then a Sith Lord can destroy an entire solar system (which, quite frankly, is greater than the "universe" as conceived by primitives such as those in Middle Earth).

As I said before, LOTR fans always try to change the subject to their apocryphal gods rather than keeping it on the people who populated the actual canon LOTR trilogy.

[Admiral Valdemar]

But then in that case where did we see Yoda turn invisible or somehow avoid becoming fried from intense heat? How do we even know a puny lightsabre will do jack against something that is a) made of fire b) a spirit and c) fell a good klick into an underground river and fought for eight days after that.

Additionally we have never seen the Sith do any of these amazing feats like, oh, create the universe. Just little folklore tales. Since Eru actually made the universe this kind of puts the Sith in the dark, unless you can say with certainty that it is canon the Sith made the SW galaxy.

[Darth Wong]

But then in that case where did we see Yoda turn invisible or somehow avoid becoming fried from intense heat?

We saw Qui-Gon do that in TPM. I posted screenshots in PSW and referred to them here. It is perfectly reasonable to conclude that Yoda can do it as well. Same goes for the heat, since Qui-Gon's hands should have been burned from his blast-door trick.

How do we even know a puny lightsabre will do jack against something that is a) made of fire b) a spirit and c) fell a good klick into an underground river and fought for eight days after that.

"Puny"? This weapon can carve through 3 feet of ultra-strong armour, which no weapon on Middle Earth can do. The Balrog fell into a river and fought Gandalf for days; big deal. You are resorting to circular logic now; Gandalf is ultra-powerful because he stood up to a Balrog for 8 days, who we know to be ultra-powerful because he ... stood up to Gandalf for 8 days.

And don't waste my time with this "spirit" bullshit. If it has a physical body, it can be destroyed. This is the third or fourth time I've made this point, and you have never addressed it.

Additionally we have never seen the Sith do any of these amazing feats like, oh, create the universe. Just little folklore tales.

In the apocrypha, a Sith Lord actually does destroy an entire solar system. And creation of the universe is not observed anywhere; it is a legend even in Middle Earth. You do not see it happen in any of the stories. And Gandalf certainly doesn't fucking do it.

Since Eru actually made the universe this kind of puts the Sith in the dark, unless you can say with certainty that it is canon the Sith made the SW galaxy.

Perhaps you can kiss my ass, since you just tried to change the subject from Gandalf vs Yoda to Eru vs Yoda, using characters whose very EXISTENCE is apocryphal.

LOTR fan-whores ...

[Morat]

I'll reserve judgement on that until the point where I see them demonstrate godlike powers. Oops; they never do that in the LOTR, do they? Instead, we have a lot of apocrypha.

There's no reason to throw out the Silm and the rest of those works. They don't have standing as high as LOTR, but they certainly are official.

If we go by apocrypha of ancient tales, then a Sith Lord can destroy an entire solar system (which, quite frankly, is greater than the "universe" as conceived by primitives such as those in Middle Earth).

Except that we're not dealing with the universe as conceived by primatives. The valar saw the universe being created, and they know that its made up of stars and galaxies.

As I said before, LOTR fans always try to change the subject to their apocryphal gods rather than keeping it on the people who populated the actual canon LOTR trilogy.

You have to talk about the Valar in a discussion of Gandalf, because they're the reason that he only uses his powers in a very limited fashion.

[Darth Wong]

Why is the Silmarillion official? Did Tolkien publish it? No. Did he approve it? No. Is it worthless? Yes. And fucking boring too.

If we go by apocrypha of ancient tales, then a Sith Lord can destroy an entire solar system (which, quite frankly, is greater than the "universe" as conceived by primitives such as those in Middle Earth).

Except that we're not dealing with the universe as conceived by primatives. The valar saw the universe being created, and they know that its made up of stars and galaxies.

And they can always be lying, so stop wasting time with this red-herring. Only a LOTR fan-whore would try to refute Gandalf vs Yoda with "Oh yeah? We've got apocryphal bullshit about some "Eru" super-god!"

As I said before, LOTR fans always try to change the subject to their apocryphal gods rather than keeping it on the people who populated the actual canon LOTR trilogy.

You have to talk about the Valar in a discussion of Gandalf, because they're the reason that he only uses his powers in a very limited fashion.

Doesn't matter what non-canon justification you use for Gandalf's limited powers; the point is that he would get his ass kicked by Yoda, and you LOTR fan-whores are just being poor sports about it.

[Morat]

And creation of the universe is not observed anywhere; it is a legend even in Middle Earth. You do not see it happen in any of the stories.

Not true. The Valar were created before the actual universe, and they saw it being created. Elves had plenty of opportunity to discuss the issue with the Valar as well.

Besides, the creation of the universe does happen at the start of the Silmarillion. In order to claim that it doesn't happen as described, you'd have to throw out the rest of the Silmarillion as well. Unlike LOTR, the Silmarillion isn't written as something passed down from prehistory, it is written in objective third person.

[Morat]

Why is the Silmarillion official? Did Tolkien publish it? No. Did he approve it? No. Is it worthless? Yes. And fucking boring too.

So should we accept Deep Space Nine as part of Trek canon? If not, what's the difference?

[Darth Wong]

And creation of the universe is not observed anywhere; it is a legend even in Middle Earth. You do not see it happen in any of the stories.

Not true. The Valar were created before the actual universe, and they saw it being created. Elves had plenty of opportunity to discuss the issue with the Valar as well.

If they saw it being created, then they were in the universe, since light propagation does not occur without space-time. Therefore, they were obviously bullshitting.

Besides, the creation of the universe does happen at the start of the Silmarillion. In order to claim that it doesn't happen as described, you'd have to throw out the rest of the Silmarillion as well. Unlike LOTR, the Silmarillion isn't written as something passed down from prehistory, it is written in objective third person.

Do you know what the word "objective" means? Third-person writing style does not automatically make something objective.

Jesus ass-fucking Christ, what is it with these LOTR fan-whotes and their apocryphal myth-wanking?

[Darth Wong]

Why is the Silmarillion official? Did Tolkien publish it? No. Did he approve it? No. Is it worthless? Yes. And fucking boring too.

So should we accept Deep Space Nine as part of Trek canon? If not, what's the difference?

Ideally, DS9 would be considered a separate canon. I admit it only because I have better things to do than fight even more flamewars with even more Trekkies over the definition of canon. This doesn't change the fact that something unapproved by the creator of a fictional universe should not be considered canon.

[Morat]

If they saw it being created, then they were in the universe, since light propagation does not occur without space-time. Therefore, they were obviously bullshitting.

Clearly, the Valar don't sense things in the way we do, since they were able to exist and act even though there was no universe when they were created.

Do you know what the word "objective" means? Third-person writing style does not automatically make something objective.

No it doesn't. However, there's no reason to take the events of the Silm at anything other than face value because they were not written by a character, but rather by an external third party (ie, the narrator existed apart from the story).

Jesus ass-fucking Christ, what is it with these LOTR fan-whotes and their apocryphal myth-wanking?

What myth-wanking? I'm talking about them because they're part of the issue at hand. I really prefer the parts of the story that are about less powerful beings.

Ideally, DS9 would be considered a separate canon. I admit it only because I have better things to do than fight even more flamewars with even more Trekkies over the definition of canon. This doesn't change the fact that something unapproved by the creator of a fictional universe should not be considered canon.

Hmmm. That is problematic, I suppose. How are we supposed to have a productive debate if we don't have a mutually agreed-upon canon order?

[Darth Wong]

Hmmm. That is problematic, I suppose. How are we supposed to have a productive debate if we don't have a mutually agreed-upon canon order?

Maybe you should just stick to Gandalf as per the thread subject, rather than introducing every apocryphal red-herring fan-wank super-being you can lay your hands on?

[Morat]

Maybe you should just stick to Gandalf as per the thread subject, rather than introducing every apocryphal red-herring fan-wank super-being you can lay your hands on?

Very well.

There's still the issue of Gandalf's voice. As we saw in LOTR, Saruman can bend an entire army to his will with a few words, and that army includes some extremely strong-willed people (such as Aragorn and Theoden), as well as one person with some degree of magical ability (Legolas, son of Tharanduil). I see no reason why it shouldn't work on Yoda. Yoda is, after all, a mortal who happens to be highly attuned to the force.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Maybe you should just stick to Gandalf as per the thread subject, rather than introducing every apocryphal red-herring fan-wank super-being you can lay your hands on?

Very well.

There's still the issue of Gandalf's voice. As we saw in LOTR, Saruman can bend an entire army to his will with a few words, and that army includes some extremely strong-willed people (such as Aragorn and Theoden), as well as one person with some degree of magical ability (Legolas, son of Tharanduil). I see no reason why it shouldn't work on Yoda. Yoda is, after all, a mortal who happens to be highly attuned to the force.

There is also the falling down that big pit in Moria and hitting the water at a nice pace which should not be discounted.

[Balrog]

I sense much anger in you

The Valar are a big part of LotR, since it was them who sent Gandalf back after he died from the battle with the Balrog.

Although he didn't have it published, Tolkien did write most of it before he died and his son finished up some parts. It's safe to assume that a good deal, if not all of it, is official cannon.

Also, saying you'll admit DS9 and the latter ST as cannon but saying you don't see Sim as cannon because he died before he could finish the book looks rather hypocritical IMO. You are, of course, free to prove me wrong

I just can't help imagining a toasty Yoda lying dead on the ground when I think of him fighting Gandalf

[Darth Wong]

There's still the issue of Gandalf's voice. As we saw in LOTR, Saruman can bend an entire army to his will with a few words, and that army includes some extremely strong-willed people (such as Aragorn and Theoden), as well as one person with some degree of magical ability (Legolas, son of Tharanduil). I see no reason why it shouldn't work on Yoda. Yoda is, after all, a mortal who happens to be highly attuned to the force.

It worked on Aragorn, Theoden, and a whole lot of other illiterates with zero telepathic abilities, therefore it should work on a 900 year old alien telepath. Yeah, sure. Interesting logic.

[Darth Wong]

I sense much anger in you

The Valar are a big part of LotR, since it was them who sent Gandalf back after he died from the battle with the Balrog.

So? They did not interfere directly. So stop assuming they will interfere here.

Although he didn't have it published, Tolkien did write most of it before he died and his son finished up some parts. It's safe to assume that a good deal, if not all of it, is official cannon.

Irrelevant. This is like grabbing Roddenberry's notes and saying they're canon. Unless it's approved by the creator, it ain't canon.

Also, saying you'll admit DS9 and the latter ST as cannon but saying you don't see Sim as cannon because he died before he could finish the book looks rather hypocritical IMO. You are, of course, free to prove me wrong

I already said that I only admit it as canon because I don't want to bother fighting even more flamewars with even more assholes. Are you trying to prove yourself one of these assholes?

I just can't help imagining a toasty Yoda lying dead on the ground when I think of him fighting Gandalf

Funny, I imagine two Gandalfs. The bottom half, and the top half. And Yoda standing between them, deactivating his lightsabre.

[Morat]

There is also the falling down that big pit in Moria and hitting the water at a nice pace which should not be discounted.

Not to mention defeating all those orcs in The Hobbit, and holding the door against the Balrog in LOTR (and the Balrog is certainly very strong physically, if nothing else), and deflecting all the weapons of the Fellowship in LOTR. Coming back from the dead in LOTR. Projecting an image of himself over a great distance in LOTR.

Plus, there's his quote from Two Towers: "None of you [Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas] have any weapons that could hurt me." That's no small thing, considering that the Three Hunters were carrying Anduril, and a set of bow and arrows from Lothlorien.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Yet you haven't addressed the non-trivial fall that would squash Yoda, how come?

[Morat]

It worked on Aragorn, Theoden, and a whole lot of other illiterates with zero telepathic abilities, therefore it should work on a 900 year old alien telepath. Yeah, sure. Interesting logic.

When has Yoda demonstrated any telepathic abilities?

[Admiral Valdemar]

It worked on Aragorn, Theoden, and a whole lot of other illiterates with zero telepathic abilities, therefore it should work on a 900 year old alien telepath. Yeah, sure. Interesting logic.

When has Yoda demonstrated any telepathic abilities?

He read the mind of Anakin, that is the only instance I can recall now, but it is moot in this instance.

[Ghost Rider]

TPM...or he's a really good guesser at Anakin's motivations.

[Balrog]

So? They did not interfere directly. So stop assuming they will interfere here.

If Yoda did kill him, they could just send Gandalf back

I already said that I only admit it as canon because I don't want to bother fighting even more flamewars with even more assholes. Are you trying to prove yourself one of these assholes?

Nope, just trying to understand why you'll copout of one issue but not another. I mean, you've had a lot of pratice beating Trekkies silly in flamewars, right?

[Darth Wong]

There is also the falling down that big pit in Moria and hitting the water at a nice pace which should not be discounted.

Yoda wouldn't even have fallen in the first place.

Not to mention defeating all those orcs in The Hobbit

As if Yoda couldn't kill a mob of Orcs.

and holding the door against the Balrog in LOTR (and the Balrog is certainly very strong physically, if nothing else)

How about Yoda lifting a 10 ton starfighter out of a swamp? Or stopping a huge multi-storey metallic column from falling (probably weighed more than the X-Wing)?

and deflecting all the weapons of the Fellowship in LOTR.

Yoda could have easily killed the entire Fellowship.

Coming back from the dead in LOTR.

A gift from some higher order of beings. Does not mean he can do it as much as he wants; it's up to them, not him.

Projecting an image of himself over a great distance in LOTR.

How about Yoda watching Luke grow up on Tatooine from thousands of fucking light years away? Now that is "great distance".

Plus, there's his quote from Two Towers: "None of you [Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas] have any weapons that could hurt me." That's no small thing, considering that the Three Hunters were carrying Anduril, and a set of bow and arrows from Lothlorien.

Ooooh, Gandalf can handle some primitives armed with swords and arrows. Remind me to be impressed.