VOY Resistance

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2007-08-08 12:19pm

I just watched half a Voyager episode, the first one I've seen in years, and it wasn't that terrible. No Seven of Sixty-Nine. It was about Janeway getting captured on a planet by a militaristic faction.

The main thing that struck me was this military, a species of the week, completely stopped Voyager cold in its tracks. The planet had eighty ion cannons, and in one hit brought their shields down to 90%. Even though they were unfamiliar with transporter technology, Neelix said as soon as the Mokra realized their perimeter was penetrated they'd surround the intruders with armed guards. And the fact the Mokra didn't know about transporters seemed to be their only trump card, as if Chakotay and Wonder Boy II knew that if the Mokra caught a whiff of transporters they could jam it. The Mokra fired a weapon straight at Voyager's deflector dish, disabling transporters in a single hit. The Mokra dressed in black like Future Soldier from the US Army, but had helmets. The only way Janeway got in was the Mokra wasn't expecting it and had two armed guards in a narrow tunnel. She pretended to be a prostitute and didn't go in all shooting with a phaser -- in other words act of plot. Chakotay didn't even consider General Order 24 -- either he needed Janeway's authority to do it, they weren't able to (likely because the planet brought Voyager's shields to almost nothing and they had to retreat) and Janeway had the help of locals. The Mokra pistols actually looked like pistols, probably redressed Klingon stuff.

Now a bunch of glorified prison guards can stop Starfleet cold, imagine full body armored stormtroopers who it would take The Force to coerce would do to Starfleet. It's almost as if some Star Trek fans who think the Federation would win don't even watch Star Trek. Chakotay didn't consider any of the more exotic tactics like beaming in a torpedo, or beaming away the entire Mokra division crew. He didn't want to risk fifty men invading the prison, in fact he didn't even consider it. And when they tried their little trick of a dozen different spoof transports, the Mokra immediately fired back and they backed off. Tuvok didn't fight back, and even B'Elanna somehow restrained herself after hearing Tuvok's scream and seeing his welts. They only fought back when they saw an opportunity.

In the end it was a local guy who kicked the prison warden's ass, stabbed him. Only after that did Janeway, Tuvok and B'Elanna take advantage of the chaos and fought. The two prison guards left backed off after they killed the warden (not held him hostage, the warden was dead so I assume the prison guards were paid and didn't want to risk their lives for somebody already dead.)

This does not sound like the stuff that can defeat a military like the GE, except through act of plot and quite frankly Jedi or Sith would kill any Federation heroes so act of plot is out of the question. I hadn't watched this episode in years, but it brings up all the technical problems and more importantly the characterization of Starfleet that some Trekkies have, that they would go all gung ho and defeat a competent military.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-08-08 05:26pm

"Didn't even consider GO24" I didn't know you were a mind reader, Brian. What's more, you're assuming Voyager out ranged these schmoes the way Enterprise had Emeniar VII. It sounds - what with them having superior firepower, when Emeniar couldn't scratch Enterprise's hull - as though it's a completely different situation. What's more, you're assuming the same term is used a generation or more later - and remember, the "Prime Directive" phrase came in later.

Furthermore, just because Voyager couldn't attack such a world, doesn't mean the Federation couldn't. Voyager isn't exactly a Dominion-War GCS loaded with troops and for bear, after all. It's amazing that some of the crew of Voyager manage to scrape up the intellect required to breathe in and out most days.

As for the observation of "trekkie" debate tactics ignoring what actually goes on in the show - that's hardly new.

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2007-08-09 10:43am

It always feels to me like rabid Trekkies think real Star Trek is what they envision it to be (in their minds), while the crap they see on TV is just writers being stupid. Either that, or maybe they think that Starfleet half asses it on purpose just to make things interesting, but as soon as a first rate opponent comes along they're bring their A game.

Sidewinder · Post by **Sidewinder** » 2007-08-09 03:34pm

SancheztheWhaler wrote:It always feels to me like rabid Trekkies think real Star Trek is what they envision it to be (in their minds), while the crap they see on TV is just writers being stupid.

Does this mean rabid Trekkies DO NOT watch 'Star Trek'? What kind of fans don't even pay attention when they watch what they're fans of?

Either that, or maybe they think that Starfleet half asses it on purpose just to make things interesting, but as soon as a first rate opponent comes along they're bring their A game.

Like the British military, with their stupid sense of "fair play" that resulted in them whining, "It's not fair!" when the Germans used 88 mm antiaircraft guns against their tanks?

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2007-08-09 03:38pm

Does this mean rabid Trekkies DO NOT watch 'Star Trek'? What kind of fans don't even pay attention when they watch what they're fans of?

It means that they're more willing to dismiss inaccuracies in one medium (ie, TV) when another medium got it right (ie, a book or game). If you like a show, you'll go through great lengths to rationalize errors and inconsistencies - just look at PSW for examples.

The problems start when rationalisations that directly contradict what's on-screen are used as arguments to defend the series. Before that point, it's just fans trying to smooth over the rough spots. Beyond it, it's taking your fantasies for reality.

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2007-08-09 04:48pm

Sidewinder wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:It always feels to me like rabid Trekkies think real Star Trek is what they envision it to be (in their minds), while the crap they see on TV is just writers being stupid.
Does this mean rabid Trekkies DO NOT watch 'Star Trek'? What kind of fans don't even pay attention when they watch what they're fans of?

No, they definitely watch it; they just (ir)rationalize away the parts they don't agree with as "Starfleet wouldn't do that in situation B!" or "the writers just didn't want to show how awesome Star Trek is!"

As someone who wasn't around for and doesn't particularly care about the ST vs. SW debate, it's always entertaining to see Trek fans work so hard to rationalize the irrational or idiotic. It's not hard to accept that the Galactic Empire is vastly superior to the Federation (or anyone in the Star Trek universe) and would win in a heartbeat. At the same time, the Galactic Empire is clearly inferior to any number of spacefaring civilizations from other books, but Star Wars fans don't seem to have their own personal self worse quite so caught up the debate, so they (generally) agree with the conclusion that Wars gets its ass handed to it and move on.

Off topic - The Star Trek portrayed in TOS and the Star Fleet Universe game was much more realistic, interesting, and intelligent than what came out of TNG, DSN, Voyager, and Enterprise. It's too bad that Federation didn't continue, and instead we got Roddenberry's socialist utopia.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2007-08-09 09:56pm

SancheztheWhaler wrote: As someone who wasn't around for and doesn't particularly care about the ST vs. SW debate, it's always entertaining to see Trek fans work so hard to rationalize the irrational or idiotic. It's not hard to accept that the Galactic Empire is vastly superior to the Federation (or anyone in the Star Trek universe) and would win in a heartbeat. At the same time, the Galactic Empire is clearly inferior to any number of spacefaring civilizations from other books, but Star Wars fans don't seem to have their own personal self worse quite so caught up the debate, so they (generally) agree with the conclusion that Wars gets its ass handed to it and move on.

Umm that's because those other sci-fi's that are far superior to SW aren't very well known when compared to Trek, and Wars. There are plenty of rabid wars fans we just don't get them around here much.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-08-10 02:46am

SancheztheWhaler wrote:
Sidewinder wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:It always feels to me like rabid Trekkies think real Star Trek is what they envision it to be (in their minds), while the crap they see on TV is just writers being stupid.
Does this mean rabid Trekkies DO NOT watch 'Star Trek'? What kind of fans don't even pay attention when they watch what they're fans of?
No, they definitely watch it; they just (ir)rationalize away the parts they don't agree with as "Starfleet wouldn't do that in situation B!" or "the writers just didn't want to show how awesome Star Trek is!"

I would say that they treat it the way most Christians treat the Bible. They worship it, but they've never really bothered to watch the whole canon, nor did they really pay close attention to the stuff they did watch. Instead, they based their entire notion of the imaginary reality of Star Trek upon a few snippets that they committed to memory, much like so many Christians think the entire Bible is John 3:16, "Do Unto Others", and the verse about how God hates fags. So when they run into something onscreen that doesn't fit with their preconceived notion, they just brush it off, much as your average right-wing American Christian brushes off all of those Jesus quotes about giving away your money to the poor.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-08-10 02:56am

A good example is what we've seen from various debators here: they're fully prepared to say 'scene x indicates y thus ST rules', but pointing out contradictory or mitigating examples or evidence gets you a stream of derision. Average people don't really -think- about what they watch, they just see 'wow they said nine thousand degrees' or 'big splosions space battle scary borg'. When challenged, they do what all ignorant poorly-educated people do when you point out that their irrational gut-feeling beliefs are wrong: they piss and moan and never even consider looking at the evidence, becasue that isn't how they think.

As Mike says, just like Christians and the Bible.