Street -- Back Again

[Battlehymn Republic]

Another idea for mixing old-school 80's RPG-styled cyberpunk with today's realities (alternatively: updating the cyberpunk)- use the words "viral" and "memes" somewhere, preferentially in conjunction with each other.

Yeah, that'd really catch on in the streets.

Cyberpunk is deliberately set in a techno-saavy future of super-corporations and freelance hackers. While there may be some wading through slums, most of the urban wastelands are actually more like, say, Hong Kong than Harlem.

While it would certainly be interesting to see today's ghetto culture in twenty years' time, it's not as if your would be thugz and crips are in any hurry to do fucking industrial espionage.

So shut up and get some sense of perspective.

[Big Orange]

While it would certainly be interesting to see today's ghetto culture in twenty years' time, it's not as if your would be thugz and crips are in any hurry to do fucking industrial espionage.

So shut up and get some sense of perspective.

I imagine some "ghetto" gangs would move with the times three to five decades into future (the time period Street seems to set in, although Winter's story is slightly vague on such details) and I can feasibly see the megacorporations dominate the West Coast, with local organized crime (like tech savvy gangbangers) feeding off of them, after most of civilization on the East Coast went bye bye (gangland competition East side would be gone as well).

[Big Orange]

Oh, I've got one more question before I go to bed: why are people still smoking tobbacco well after the 2020s, when the rainforests have all been destroyed (unless nano tech is involved in the current crop of "healthy" tobacco products)?

[Winter]

Oh, I've got one more question before I go to bed: why are people still smoking tobbacco well after the 2020s, when the rainforests have all been destroyed (unless nano tech is involved in the current crop of "healthy" tobacco products)?

Given the prevalence of smoking today and in the past, I don't think there's even a chance of it being eradicated in this century. Somehow they'll find a way, and there'll be people stupid enough to do it. It wasn't really a matter of deep thought, I just put it in.

As for why, it was a character choice. It's interesting to make my characters have habits that I find utterly loathsome. You won't find a Mary-Sue here!

Regards,
Winter

[Big Orange]

Given the prevalence of smoking today and in the past, I don't think there's even a chance of it being eradicated in this century. Somehow they'll find a way, and there'll be people stupid enough to do it. It wasn't really a matter of deep thought, I just put it in.

It would be better writing if real Tobacco was classified as a highly illegal yet expensive narcotic, while synthetic Tobacco is fully legal and not as harmful.

[Winter]

It would be better writing if real Tobacco was classified as a highly illegal yet expensive narcotic, while synthetic Tobacco is fully legal and not as harmful.

How is that better writing? Why would it possibly be illegal? Even as a public health issue it's not ever going to have an actual penalty attached, because trying to police it would be a complete and utter waste of resources.

I don't believe smoking will ever be illegal for two reasons:

1) It's incredibly widespread and generally accepted by the public, and
2) How in hell would you police it? Why? How many cells do you think it would fill up needlessly, at cost to the state? How much do you think the whole campaign would take out of the coffers, money which could be better spent elsewhere?

No, I'm afraid I will never see eye-to-eye with you on that one.

Regards,
Winter

[Big Orange]

How is that better writing? Why would it possibly be illegal?

Well real Tobacco cigerettes would be rendered illegal, but synthetic cigerettes (no plants involved in the manufacture) would be widely available. I just like the thought of organized crime making billions from the secret production and supplying of real smokes, when Tobacco plants are a rare commodity following an ecological catastrophe'.

Even as a public health issue it's not ever going to have an actual penalty attached, because trying to police it would be a complete and utter waste of resources.

Well the current War on Terror and longer running War on Drugs appear to be an almost complete waste of resources, yet the US Government still ploughs billions into those two black holes; I don't think even the Federation would be immune to that kind of institutional dumbness.

I don't believe smoking will ever be illegal for two reasons:

1) It's incredibly widespread and generally accepted by the public,

Smoking is more common that it should ever fucking be, but I don't think smoking is as publically accepted as it once was - in my country (United Kingdom) the authorities have enacted a universal smoking ban in all pubs, clubs and work places, with Tobacco products being issued with public health warnings for some time now:

2) How in hell would you police it? Why? How many cells do you think it would fill up needlessly, at cost to the state? How much do you think the whole campaign would take out of the coffers, money which could be better spent elsewhere?

No, I'm afraid I will never see eye-to-eye with you on that one.

It has happened since forever with the enforced ban on class A drugs, so why couldn't it be feasibly possible for drugs that are "acceptable" now be rendered illegal as well? And besides, I did suggest that "artificial" cigerettes are popular mainstream products (it would add an extra dimension to the megacoporations vs the crime syndicates, in the illgal or legit narcotics trade).

[Winter]

following an ecological catastrophe'.

I'm not trying to offend you here, but you say it would be better writing when your explanation requires a handwave of that magnitude?

Well the current War on Terror and longer running War on Drugs appear to be an almost complete waste of resources, yet the US Government still ploughs billions into those two black holes; I don't think even the Federation would be immune to that kind of institutional dumbness.

The examples you quoted are also wholly ineffectual in their stated purpose. That's the point. Even if one of those plans was enacted for cigarettes, it could never possibly succeed.

Smoking is more common that it should ever fucking be

Agreed.

but I don't think smoking is as publically accepted as it once was

True, but it's still astonishingly widespread. Half the people I encounter here, in sunny England, smoke. And those public health warnings? They don't put off a single solitary soul.

It has happened since forever with the enforced ban on class A drugs, so why couldn't it be feasibly possible for drugs that are "acceptable" now be rendered illegal as well? And besides, I did suggest that "artificial" cigerettes are popular mainstream products (it would add an extra dimension to the megacoporations vs the crime syndicates, in the illgal or legit narcotics trade).

There'd have to be a reason for these artificial cigarettes to be produced. Some kind of nebulous 'ecological catastrophe' is not something I'd use in my stories, it doesn't really add anything to the world, it's just a shaky explanation to support an irrelevant detail. It does the exact opposite of what I want for Street. For no practical gain, it replaces a real thing with a made-up thing, further removing the story from the items and habits that connect it to the real world which you and I are currently living in. The things that make the entire story more solid in the reader's mind and easier to relate to as a whole.

Any fictional piece (including prose style, dialogue, characters, setting) should have as many similarities to as differences from the world of modern Earth. In between those two poles is where a story can really start to live in the minds of its readers.

Regards,
Winter

[Big Orange]

*Snip*

I agree that my ideas seem a little too convoluted and contrived, but I notice cigerette smokers in England seem to be split up into two seperate demographic groups: young and dumb or old and lifelong. And while I can still see cigerette smoking still being widespread in the dingy super slums of Street, in the very pristine more tightly controlled coporate/industrial/government enclaves and archologies it would perhaps be a different story.

However I love it that contemporary cyberpunk movies such as The Fifth Element and Children of Men feature cigerettes with tiny Tobacco heads but massive filters...

[Phantasee]

Man oh man, I just finished up to Part 7. This is very good stuff. To be honest, I don't read as much cyberpunk as I should, considering how much I enjoy it.

I thought Big Orange's idea that there was some ecological catastrophe was from reading about how there are no more real jungles because they've all been burned, bombed, and razed to the ground. I recall Gina mentioning that when they were in the virtual jungle before meeting Gabriel's AI.

[Big Orange]

I thought Big Orange's idea that there was some ecological catastrophe was from reading about how there are no more real jungles because they've all been burned, bombed, and razed to the ground.

You are exactly right, Tobacco is a plant, so why wouldn't Tobacco plants mostly be lost as well, with real Tobacco being a sign of extreme luxury?

[Phantasee]

I also noted that the story is set in the 2070s. It is specific, because it mentions the Prince of Wales building in Hong Kong being built a century ago, in the 1970s. Even if the date of the construction is wrong, it still tells us when the story is set according to the author.

Winter, one question: How the hell do two Feds walk into a gun fight between two gangs and not get killed? From what I understood, they had helmets and riot shields and those zap sticks I remember from Demolition Man with Snipes and Stallone. If they have some special armour, why doesn't anyone else manage to steal it ever? The Emperor proved you can kill a Fed and steal his stuff.

I am referring to Mathias and Jeffrey from the bar.

[Big Orange]

Winter, one question: How the hell do two Feds walk into a gun fight between two gangs and not get killed? From what I understood, they had helmets and riot shields and those zap sticks I remember from Demolition Man with Snipes and Stallone. If they have some special armour, why doesn't anyone else manage to steal it ever? The Emperor proved you can kill a Fed and steal his stuff.

I am referring to Mathias and Jeffrey from the bar.

I guess as with UNATCO where nano agents like Denton are vastly superior to most UNATCO operatives, there is a designated difference between elite Federation marshals like Jeffrey and regular Federation troopers like the young sentry that the Emperor killed from behind (also the Emperor is implied to be augmented by nanomachines/cybernetics/combat drugs). The Emperor also got the drop on an elite marshal and shot her in the skull before her advanced nano-armour activated (I also don't think you could pillage a elite Federal agent due to his/her body and equipment being rigged for just his/her usage {perhaps they could even self destruct like Majestic 12 MIBs}).

I did like Bomber's explanation for the Federation having large ventilation ducts that a grown person could crawl through in their high security facilty (a well worn action/sci-fi/spy movie cliché' since Dr. No).

[Winter]

I also noted that the story is set in the 2070s. It is specific, because it mentions the Prince of Wales building in Hong Kong being built a century ago, in the 1970s. Even if the date of the construction is wrong, it still tells us when the story is set according to the author.

The 'a century ago' there is meant to be vague, and could mean anything between 2060-2099. I haven't decided, it's not really important.

Winter, one question: How the hell do two Feds walk into a gun fight between two gangs and not get killed? From what I understood, they had helmets and riot shields and those zap sticks I remember from Demolition Man with Snipes and Stallone. If they have some special armour, why doesn't anyone else manage to steal it ever? The Emperor proved you can kill a Fed and steal his stuff.

I am referring to Mathias and Jeffrey from the bar.

Big Orange pretty much nailed it. Matthias and Jeffrey are full constables, full-on scary guys. They've got personal armour that will disintegrate itself if the owner dies. Standard uniforms, however, are just plain passive armour.

It's a good point, though, it can't hurt to be clearer on this. I'll have to make an edit or two.

Regards,
Winter

[Big Orange]

You described Federal constables as having neat and spartan uniforms. I imagine Federation constanbles would be wearing Nehru-style uniforms similar to this:



Only the uniforms are instead grey, with Federation badges, symbols and rank insignia. The enlisted Federal troopers however, would have those Nehru tunics, but they would in addition wear grey combat trousers, black combat boots, grey tactical vests and military headgear that is either a helmet or berret.

Also, Winter, what d=oes the Federation's main flag emblem look like and do the larger megacorps have their own paramilitary security forces?

[Winter]

You described Federal constables as having neat and spartan uniforms. I imagine Federation constanbles would be wearing Nehru-style uniforms similar to this:



Only the uniforms are instead grey, with Federation badges, symbols and rank insignia. The enlisted Federal troopers however, would have those Nehru tunics, but they would in addition wear grey combat trousers, black combat boots, grey tactical vests and military headgear that is either a helmet or berret.

No, the image you linked is of a dress uniform, not something that would actually be worn into combat or on regular duty. It's just for showing off at official functions.

I've always imagined it more like the jacket and trousers (NOT the boots or hat) of this uniform: http://www.cmhg.gc.ca/cmh/book_images/h ... s00_02.jpg

Thick, rugged, with possibly a few combat ribbons and a Fed badge on the breast.

Also, Winter, what d=oes the Federation's main flag emblem look like and do the larger megacorps have their own paramilitary security forces?

Of course the big corps have their own merc forces. What do you think Bomber does for a living?

I haven't figured on an emblem for the Feds, but I should be able to draw something up in a few minutes . . .

Regards,
Winter

[Winter]

Okay, well, my art skills completely fail to live up to the challenge. But I had an idea for a general design, anyway:

A black-rimmed silver circle with a pair of crosseds swords over a gold balance scale.

It fits the Feds' sense of being the primary organs of justice and law in the world, even if they might not entirely live up to it.

Regards,
Winter

[Big Orange]

Of course the big corps have their own merc forces. What do you think Bomber does for a living?

Bomber is a mercenary freelancer, but he doesn't seem to be permanently tied to any formal security force (as far as I can tell) - also Jock seems to break into military grade computer networks a little too easily and in the past stole information that only a few government officials knew about. It would be better if the Federation and megacorps kept above top secret data in impossibly secure computer vaults (like Sunways Systems did in Cypher).

Okay, well, my art skills completely fail to live up to the challenge.

I can do art fairly well, but unfortunately (for now) I can't post my sketches or paintings that I've done so far. Street has the potential for good tie in art - I've already sketched out what a Federal soldier supposedly looks like and the logos for three megacorps (I might even do a drawing of the Federation's central Hong Kong compound and Federation security droids).

[Winter]

Bomber is a mercenary freelancer, but he doesn't seem to be permanently tied to any formal security force (as far as I can tell)

Yes. My point is, who would usually end up hiring (people like) Bomber?

also Jock seems to break into military grade computer networks a little too easily and in the past stole information that only a few government officials knew about. It would be better if the Federation and megacorps kept above top secret data in impossibly secure computer vaults (like Sunways Systems did in Cypher).

This already happens in Street. I'm sure that, at some point, the characters will have to make a physical raid on a vaulted computer.

I can do art fairly well, but unfortunately (for now) I can't post my sketches or paintings that I've done so far. Street has the potential for good tie in art - I've already sketched out what a Federal soldier supposedly looks like and the logos for three megacorps (I might even do a drawing of the Federation's central Hong Kong compound and Federation security droids).

I'd like to see that very much. And, if you'd like, I'd be happy to display it on the site as well.

Lastly, apologies for my lack of response lately, I've been moving house. For now we have no internet access and that doesn't look to be improving soon -- the previous tenant skipped out without paying a load of his bills and having failed to cancel several of his subscriptions, including broadband. BT are being right cocks about trying to fix it. Now, I must phone them up and scream at them.

Regards,
Winter

[Big Orange]

Yes. My point is, who would usually end up hiring (people like) Bomber?

Yeah, but Bomber seems more like a loose cannon with thickle loyalties and worked for a treacherous underworld boss that was going to kill him the first ill taken chance he had.

This already happens in Street.

You mean Jock being frozen out by Lazarus after half an hour of messing about with the security network and being instantly terrified of Gabrial?

I'm sure that, at some point, the characters will have to make a physical raid on a vaulted computer.

You have saw Cypher, right, with the big corporate war between Digicorp and Sunways Systems?

I'd like to see that very much. And, if you'd like, I'd be happy to display it on the site as well.

That's very kind of you, although it could take up to six to eighteen months to introduce or improve my drawings and I'm doing a lot of Iain Banks and Doctor Who related art at the moment...

[Winter]

Yeah, but Bomber seems more like a loose cannon with thickle loyalties and worked for a treacherous underworld boss that was going to kill him the first ill taken chance he had.

Any money's good money in that trade, eh?

You mean Jock being frozen out by Lazarus after half an hour of messing about with the security network and being instantly terrified of Gabrial?

Sorry? I'm afraid I'm not following you there.

You have saw Cypher, right, with the big corporate war between Digicorp and Sunways Systems?

No, never saw it.

That's very kind of you, although it could take up to six to eighteen months to introduce or improve my drawings and I'm doing a lot of Iain Banks and Doctor Who related art at the moment...

Of course, all in your own time. I'd still like to see it, though!

Regards,
Winter

[Big Orange]

Any money's good money in that trade, eh?

Megacorporation security forces in my mind would be military security companies similar to Blackwater, but they've grown much bigger and directly integrated into the chain of command of the megacorps that initially contratcted them (so the mercs would always use the equipment/weapons/vehicles manufactured by the company that they work for and even have the logo of said company on their uniforms).

The upcoming Ubisoft game, Haze, follows the story of a mercenary working in the employ of Mantel Global Industries, a megacorporation so large it's private army is acting as a global enforcer on a comparable scale to the Federation in the Street-verse.

Link: http://hazegame.uk.ubi.com/

Sorry? I'm afraid I'm not following you there.

Wasn't Lazarus the AI that was running the security network for the Federal Hong Kong complex? Jock was able to trick, meddle and redirect with the Prince of Wales Building's security systems, but Lazarus was not so easily fooled and cut off Jock's hacking - sorry I confused you there, just clarifying...

No, never saw it.

But you should - here are details on the DVD release of Cypher so you can track down this hugely underrated sci-fi thriller.

Of course, all in your own time. I'd still like to see it, though!

Regards,
Winter

Most of Iain Banks artwork is so far based on Consider Phlebas and The Player of Games...

[Winter]

Yes! I have returned to the internets, finally, and soon all will be restored to normality.

Megacorporation security forces in my mind would be military security companies similar to Blackwater, but they've grown much bigger and directly integrated into the chain of command of the megacorps that initially contratcted them (so the mercs would always use the equipment/weapons/vehicles manufactured by the company that they work for and even have the logo of said company on their uniforms).

Yes, but I still imagine them to have a number of 'consultants' on a for-hire basis, operating individually or together in black ops.

Wasn't Lazarus the AI that was running the security network for the Federal Hong Kong complex? Jock was able to trick, meddle and redirect with the Prince of Wales Building's security systems, but Lazarus was not so easily fooled and cut off Jock's hacking - sorry I confused you there, just clarifying...

Yeah, the AI's called Lazarus. I was just getting confused about what you meant -- if you thought that Jock being able to hack in at all was unrealistic, or if you liked it the way it's written.

But you should - here are details on the DVD release of Cypher so you can track down this hugely underrated sci-fi thriller.

Well, I'm skint and unemployed at the moment (day job fell through), so it may be a while before I can buy anything.

Most of Iain Banks artwork is so far based on Consider Phlebas and The Player of Games...

Unfortunately I've not read either of those, but I'm very interested in seeing those Street sketches.

Regards,
Winter

PS. Here's a few photos of the Prince of Wales building, just for fun: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Pe ... g_Building

[Big Orange]

Yes, but I still imagine them to have a number of 'consultants' on a for-hire basis, operating individually or together in black ops.

That adds an extra layer of intrigue to corporate espionage and low intensity warfare, but these "consultants" would perhaps not be 100% trusted by their employees and some of the megacorps (by definition almost nation states in themselves) would have their "in-house" operatives being cautious of mercenary spies or military specialists (this was a central plot element in cyberpunk spy thriller Cypher).

Yeah, the AI's called Lazarus. I was just getting confused about what you meant -- if you thought that Jock being able to hack in at all was unrealistic, or if you liked it the way it's written.

I just find it Mary Sue-ish that Jock could break into practically everything early on in the story, but then again he had the blessings of a powerful crime lord and a giant bank of supercomputers at that Triad lair. When he was cracking into the Federal compound, he perhaps only had a few laptops and a makeshift mainframe (which would fare badly against a fortified computer core that houses a AI).

Well, I'm skint and unemployed at the moment (day job fell through), so it may be a while before I can buy anything.

That's bad news and typical of Britain in 2007, but don't fret: just join JobCentre Plus and LearnDirect (which I've done in recent months).

Unfortunately I've not read either of those, but I'm very interested in seeing those Street sketches.

Sadly I don't yet know how to transfer my pencil sketches of the characters, objects and locations related to Street onto this talk forum, but for a consolation prize I'll show you this Neuromancer related concept art from YouTube (link not guaranteed; just log on YouTube and type "Neuromancer" if there are any problems) - its pretty good, but some of the characters and locations are not as I evisioned it to be (by the way I can do Neuromancer related art as well; I've already done the corporate logo for Tessier-Ashpool SA).

[Winter]

I just find it Mary Sue-ish that Jock could break into practically everything early on in the story, but then again he had the blessings of a powerful crime lord and a giant bank of supercomputers at that Triad lair. When he was cracking into the Federal compound, he perhaps only had a few laptops and a makeshift mainframe (which would fare badly against a fortified computer core that houses a AI).

Jock is far too much of an arsehole to be a Mary-Sue. Either way, yes, he is meant to be very competent, otherwise he wouldn't be employed where he was. He's going to get a lot more development over the course of the story, though.

Sadly I don't yet know how to transfer my pencil sketches of the characters, objects and locations related to Street onto this talk forum, but for a consolation prize I'll show you this Neuromancer related concept art from YouTube (link not guaranteed; just log on YouTube and type "Neuromancer" if there are any problems) - its pretty good, but some of the characters and locations are not as I evisioned it to be (by the way I can do Neuromancer related art as well; I've already done the corporate logo for Tessier-Ashpool SA).

Well, I'm afraid that didn't work, the link is bad and a search didn't turn it up. Sorry.

You could always just e-mail your stuff to me, I'd be happy to give you my address if you'd consider that.

Regards,
Winter