STGOD: A Dead Art?

[Thirdfain]

With that much ECM, it'd take a dedicated effort to punch through. IE, a ship's dying act would be to redirect all power to comms and burn through the interference. And that would be why it's a dying ship.

What sort of ship's dying act? A destroyer's? A cruiser's? A battleship's? How many points of ship should be sacrificed to generate sufficient power to punch through such heavy jamming? Seeing as there's something like 60 points of EW present and the biggest ship on the opposiing side is 40 points, maybe it should take 2 or 3 ships dropping shields to boost the signal?

These aren't precise numbers- I'm just asking exactly how signal boosting should work.

[SirNitram]

It's not something I want to give a hard and fast number for; it's something I think would work dramatically. It should be a major sacrifice, however, from the current force. Enough that it's a trade-off: Less damage against the attackers so they can get the word out.

[Thirdfain]

OK, cool idea.

though considering comm times, and the fact the Pirates and Psychics have already entered Poland, they'll still face the guns of the Fleet...

[SirNitram]

OK, cool idea.

though considering comm times, and the fact the Pirates and Psychics have already entered Poland, they'll still face the guns of the Fleet...

Delayed warning is better than no warning, and the identity of the betrayers is better than silence where your attackers were.

[Thirdfain]

Oh, indeed. Indeed.

Now, where's Starglider? I need to get to reaping.

[Starglider]

Delayed warning is better than no warning, and the identity of the betrayers is better than silence where your attackers were.

I must confess that I didn't consider the possibility that Noble Ire's fleet would be able to warn the other two fleets prior to reaching the target. Certainly signals propagate much faster than ships (something like x10 the speed), and Noble Ire's fleet is less than twice as far from the target as the other two, so that's not the issue. But 'burning' three signals (to the two allies and home) past jamming has to be even harder than one.

To me it seems more likely that some ships would get out of range and then signal. A simple scatter in all directions at high sublight may work if the number of interdictors present is lower than the number of fleeing ships - but it would be pushing it to stay out of weapons long enough to clear the interdiction zone. More likely would be a screen staying behind and sacrificing themselves to tie up the defenders (e.g. making attack runs at the interdictors and EW ships, that must be protected), giving some ships enough lead to make it out of the interdiction zone and go to FTL. Once that happens only the attacker ships with enhanced FTL speed are going to be able to keep up.

All that said, I'd be surprised if more than 25% of the ships escape.

[Noble Ire]

I think I'll give Adrian a chance to post before I continue.

Besides, I wouldn't want to miss out on any of this delightful commentary by being hasty. Watching the destruction of one's ships being discussed abstractly and dispassionately by your fellows is a blast.

[Beowulf]

To me it seems more likely that some ships would get out of range and then signal. A simple scatter in all directions at high sublight may work if the number of interdictors present is lower than the number of fleeing ships - but it would be pushing it to stay out of weapons long enough to clear the interdiction zone. More likely would be a screen staying behind and sacrificing themselves to tie up the defenders (e.g. making attack runs at the interdictors and EW ships, that must be protected), giving some ships enough lead to make it out of the interdiction zone and go to FTL. Once that happens only the attacker ships with enhanced FTL speed are going to be able to keep up.

All that said, I'd be surprised if more than 25% of the ships escape.

The problem with leaving a screen behind is that if the opponent has enough force, they can leave enough fighting the screen to decisively defeat them, as well as still having enough left to go after the fleeing ships, and decisively defeat those as well. In that way, the ships can be stuck in an interdiction zone until they can be defeated. Another problem is that the interdictor and EW ships, in this instance, can slug it out with some of the largest ships in the game, largely because they are some of the largest ships in the game. So trying to take them out so you can run is going to be a losing proposition.

Adrian should be posting soon. I waited until he sent me a preview of his post to make mine.

[Starglider]

The problem with leaving a screen behind is that if the opponent has enough force, they can leave enough fighting the screen to decisively defeat them, as well as still having enough left to go after the fleeing ships, and decisively defeat those as well.

Frankly I'd agree with you, if we were being realistic. You'd kill just about* everything and take around 20% casualties (perhaps somewhat less factoring in the surprise). I have no problem with this, again if it is applied consistently. However so far we seem to have been going more for 'whatever sounds the most dramatic', e.g. typical Trek novel writer's
appreciation of starship combat.

* The 'just about' comes from heavy jamming and general chaos making it increasingly difficult to ensure you got every single target as the number of ships increases.

Unless you're Dark Hellion of course, in which case a 3:1 advantage to the attacker results in the defender taking 20% casualties and the attackers retreating in defeat and dismay.

I'm done with work for now so I'll write that post...

EDIT: GuppyShark has apparently withdrawn from the game; I must've missed that post. Do I need to mark anyone else as gone on the summary?

[Thirdfain]

Frankly I'd agree with you, if we were being realistic. You'd kill just about* everything and take around 20% casualties (perhaps somewhat less factoring in the surprise). I have no problem with this, again if it is applied consistently. However so far we seem to have been going more for 'whatever sounds the most dramatic', e.g. typical Trek novel writer's
appreciation of starship combat.

Waaa Waaaaaah. If Beowulf and Adrian split their forces and destroy your fleet in two segments, both outnumbered, you'll DIE. No trek novel crap, just a bunch of frozen corpses, twisted wrecks, and vented atmosphere.

[Starglider]

No trek novel crap, just a bunch of frozen corpses, twisted wrecks, and vented atmosphere.

Fine with me, as long as that happens whenever similar odds occur. Of course, they're not my ships, so my opinion isn't terribly relevant yet.

I've given up on trying to get a handle on UC's characters and just posted about his ships.

[nt01jones]

I'm going to be returning to the STGOD. See what I've missed out on so far.

[Imperial Overlord]

So let me get this straight: White Haven has moved from his staging point towards Polish Territory and UC Booties is massing at a different staging point?

[Darkevilme]

You know, the more i read this STGOD the more i think that plans have to be dead (as in fall over forwards) simple to have any chance of working correctly.

[Starglider]

So let me get this straight: White Haven has moved from his staging point towards Polish Territory and UC Booties is massing at a different staging point?

Yes, they were both waiting inside their own borders just outside of tracking range.

(I presume they crept up to the detection threshold under reduced FTL drive power, if that's possible)

[Imperial Overlord]

So let me get this straight: White Haven has moved from his staging point towards Polish Territory and UC Booties is massing at a different staging point?

Yes, they were both waiting inside their own borders just outside of tracking range.

(I presume they crept up to the detection threshold under reduced FTL drive power, if that's possible)

Cool. This is very cool, but hard to follow without all the PMs behind it.

[Beowulf]

You know, the more i read this STGOD the more i think that plans have to be dead (as in fall over forwards) simple to have any chance of working correctly.

The moral of this story is: choose your allies wisely. They might not turn out to be allies after all. It's really a good idea to make sure that any given two of your allies won't have one wanting to kill the other (or should be wanting to for role playing reasons).

[Crossroads Inc.]

Speaking of "choosing allies wisly" what DID make you Backstab everyone Beo?

[Starglider]

The moral of this story is: choose your allies wisely. They might not turn out to be allies after all. It's really a good idea to make sure that any given two of your allies won't have one wanting to kill the other (or should be wanting to for role playing reasons).

Frankly that wasn't a problem from my point of view. It was only a matter of time until you and Noble Ire went for each other, and probably not very much time.

It was however annoying that you rendered the League and Pirate forces ineffective. IC it makes sense to ally with the most powerful block and encircle the weaker one that you want to steal territory from anyway, but OOC White Haven and UCBooties were in a bad position and Thirdfain was in a very strong position, so I was hoping they might reverse the situation.

[Beowulf]

Speaking of "choosing allies wisly" what DID make you Backstab everyone Beo?

Three reasons. The Kitaka's God demanded that they get rid of the League of Thought. And Noble Ire logically would be going after me for ideological reasons, so I wanted to hit him first. Third, all right thinking powers abhor pirates.

[consequences]

Right, they're talking about lockdown, and other such fun things. So They are going to be quietly building up to try additional crap for the next two weeks, starting Saturday morning. I'll try to get another brief vignettes post out to give more reason for people to be waiting with the knives out come the 25th, but no promises.

[Thirdfain]

*sigh* This is REALLY annoying. The staggered, hours-apart formation only makes sense if they know an ambush is coming. Otherwise, their force would arrive in little segments- and the extra hour's warning after the arrival of the vanguard from the EW nets would allow more Polish forces to concentrate to defend. I mean, let me get this straight, Starglider- the League ships are gonna hit, along with the vanguard of the Pirates, and an HOUR later the Pirate BBs are gonna show up? That makes NO kind of logical sense, unless they know there's an ambush and are trying to preserve most of their fleet.

I mean, as is I'm gonna have around 600+ points of Polish defenders over Nova Masovie, which will be enough to wipe out the vanguard and the League fleeet without even springing the ambush...

-edit-

I have nothing more to post in the game thread in regards to that theatre of operations until the main strike's arrival at Nowa Masovie.

[Starglider]

*sigh* This is REALLY annoying. The staggered, hours-apart formation only makes sense if they know an ambush is coming.

Waaa Waaaaaah.

UCB specified the EW ship in front. I adding letting the supply ships trail, but that makes sense if patrols are going to be engaged on the way in, because they're small, fragile and the only thing at serious risk from patrol forces.

the extra hour's warning after the arrival of the vanguard from the EW nets would allow more Polish forces to concentrate to defend

An hour's extra warning isn't significant when the ships take a couple of days to get to the target and multiple days to get between even adjacent planets. UCBooties is paranoid and I don't blame him.

I mean, let me get this straight, Starglider- the League ships are gonna hit, along with the vanguard of the Pirates, and an HOUR later the Pirate BBs are gonna show up?

What makes you say that? All the forward ships have to do is slow down a bit in the final run to the target and they'll be back together again. But the forward intel will allow the approach vector(s) for the main force to be optimised depending on where the defenders are.

I mean, as is I'm gonna have around 600+ points of Polish defenders over Nova Masovie, which will be enough to wipe out the vanguard and the League fleeet without even springing the ambush...

You're keeping them over Nova Masovie?

I have nothing more to post in the game thread in regards to that theatre of operations until the main strike's arrival at Nowa Masovie.

Specifically, they're not detecting any patrols at all on the way in?

EDIT: Incidentally, Beowulf got this a couple of weeks before he attacked NI:

The FEA, ARM (presumably) and Kiro fleet elements are moving to positions in open space, 10 light years or so apart. The later are the only ones under cloak. They will link up right before advancing. They're travelling above the galactic disc but the staging area itself is just out of estimated Polish tracking range plus a 20% safety margin or so, which may actually be inside the galaxy (I'm not sure if the default warning time for incoming fleets approaching a nation's border is hours or days). The League and Pirate elements are forming up in their own territory, I think they're are just going to dash in without warning.

I let him overrule all that (and various descriptions of the op to SirNitram) since it was just OOC PMs, but I'm not cutting him any more slack.

EDIT2: Looking through PMs, I notice I forgot to mention UCB's interdictors, added. Also added some Bootswellington ship names from an old PM.

[Beowulf]

EDIT: Incidentally, Beowulf got this a couple of weeks before he attacked NI:

The FEA, ARM (presumably) and Kiro fleet elements are moving to positions in open space, 10 light years or so apart. The later are the only ones under cloak. They will link up right before advancing. They're travelling above the galactic disc but the staging area itself is just out of estimated Polish tracking range plus a 20% safety margin or so, which may actually be inside the galaxy (I'm not sure if the default warning time for incoming fleets approaching a nation's border is hours or days). The League and Pirate elements are forming up in their own territory, I think they're are just going to dash in without warning.

I let him overrule all that (and various descriptions of the op to SirNitram) since it was just OOC PMs, but I'm not cutting him any more slack.

EDIT2: Looking through PMs, I notice I forgot to mention UCB's interdictors, added. Also added some Bootswellington ship names from an old PM.

I didn't actually override anything. We linked up before advancing. At which point I slipped the knife between your collective shoulder blades.

[Starglider]

It's not something I want to give a hard and fast number for; it's something I think would work dramatically. It should be a major sacrifice, however, from the current force.

Initially this struck me as pretty silly, but I think I can rationalise it for that surviving minelayer. Fully a quarter of the ship is a high-power spatial anomoly generator (another quarter is the cloak and most of the rest is reactors), and Kiroter'nah comms work by transmitting non-dispersing patterns of spatial distortion across long distances. A normal comms array is going to burn out well before absorbing a useful amount of power, but this specialist piece of equipment is already designed to take 50% of the ship's peak power output in standard operation. So it is at least up to Trek plausibility levels that overloading both reactors and channeling the power into the spatial anomoly generator would get a signal out in the few seconds before the ship explodes.

That said, it might make for an interesting /game/ if no one else knows what happened at this battle (beyond the people who already do). But I have no idea if Beowulf and Thirdfain want to take that route. Of course the Kiro on the ship being hunted down don't know any of this, their instinct is to try and make their deaths serve the flock if it looks certain they can't escape.

Nitram if you're ok with the above method, I'll get an encrypted burst off to the Kiro special ops group. However they certainly won't be automatically sharing that with anyone - whether that info ever comes out and to who will depend on what happens next. It certainly won't get to the other two fleets before they reach their target.

P.S. Beowulf appears to be interdicting a ~360pt fleet with 12 points of interdiction (at the start of the battle), for a ratio of 30:1. Is that comfortably within normal interdiction performance? It's nice to know my ships can interdict ~1000pts worth of enemy, if necessary