The greatest starfighter ever built?

[Lord Relvenous]

Yeah but i think we need to agree that in-game mechanics are not a reliable scale at which to judge things. Especially traits like speed and manueverability, unless the game accounts for load weight.

[Chris OFarrell]

I think people are overlooking the XJ3 X-Wing.

Its got 3 torpedo tubes capable of holding 12 torpedoes and its four laser cannons IIRC are much MUCH heavier then those of a standard X-Wing or Tie Defender. Its just about as fast as the Defender IIRC if less maneuverable and I don't think it costs anything like as much. Also has a whole heep of smaller technical improvements designed for fighting the vong like quick recharge shields, expanded inertial compensator's with a cutoff switch to prevent them overloading...

[Cykeisme]

I think people are overlooking the XJ3 X-Wing.

Its got 3 torpedo tubes capable of holding 12 torpedoes and its four laser cannons IIRC are much MUCH heavier then those of a standard X-Wing or Tie Defender. Its just about as fast as the Defender IIRC if less maneuverable and I don't think it costs anything like as much. Also has a whole heep of smaller technical improvements designed for fighting the vong like quick recharge shields, expanded inertial compensator's with a cutoff switch to prevent them overloading...

What do they have to give up for all that extra equipment?

[Starglider]

What do they have to give up for all that extra equipment?

Probably nothing, if it's a typical EU writer wankfest. Yeah, somehow the New Republic produces a supremely capable and cost-effective fighter on a tiny fraction of the Empire's military budget.

Realistically, probably combat range and time between service overhauls.

[Shannon]

Phantasee mentioned not being able to find a parallel for the Hurricane. What about the Y-Wing? It doesn't have a great rep in games or EU novels, but look at what it actually does in the canon films - in ANH it performs no worse than the X-Wings, and in ROTJ a Y-Wing clearly nails two TIE Interceptors (I think this has been mentioned before in another thread). The only problem seems to be the inability of a single pilot to fully utilise all its abilities - laser cannon, ion cannon and proton torps. That and it has shields and a hyperdrive. Hmmmm ... sounds a lot like a TIE Defender, even though it's slower and lacks the tractor beam and fire control.
I had anticipated that the TIE Defender would feature strongly given the long list of its capabilities, but I agree with Chris regarding the XJ3 being overlooked. If sacrifices had to be made to achieve that level of performance with the XJ3, fitting all that into roughly the same frame, then the Defender must (as someone said) be putting out one hell of a lot of power or make a big compromise somewhere else.

[Warsie]

Also with the TIE hunters, IIRC the only reason more weren't made was due to the Alliance taking down the cloaked Executor at Fondor, which incidentally took out much of the TIE Hunters in the raid.

And the Empire's superiority complex (using S-foil design originally from the OR then used by Rebels)

[Master_Baerne]

having better individual fighters doesn't mean shit when you're outnumbered a thousand-to-one.

Yes it does. Just ask Stackpole and Allston.

[Trajanus]

having better individual fighters doesn't mean shit when you're outnumbered a thousand-to-one.

Yes it does. Just ask Stackpole and Allston.

Really? You honestly think that being severely outnumbered by a significant margin doesn't spell instant doom? What kind of uber-wanked starfighter does it take for that to happen?

Also, could you please specify which books you're referring to by those authors?

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

Of course not, if I may interject; this is sarcasm in action.

Mike Stackpole and Aaron Allston are notorious for assuming that individual superiority trumps numbers, and for writing so- the Rogue Squadron comics and novels for the chief example.

There are other parts of the EU I have substantially greater qualms about, but in general, and especially in their treatment of combat probabilities, on the ladder of realism they are several rungs below Biggles of the Camel Squadron.

The assumed superiority of the Defender is on the grounds that large amounts of money and talent were thrown at it to make sure it really was that good. It does legitimately pay the price for it's capabilities, in reactor and engine size to support them and the inflated credit cost of that- 300,000 credits used, three times the used cost of the X-wing and 12 times that of the TIE/ln. That's the theory, anyway.

In practise, I expect there would be one thing that you could do when outnumbered a thousand to one; run away. Really fast. Being outnumbered doesn't spell instant doom if they can't catch you.

Apart from that, silver bullet type missions. High speed recon, rapid strike, outmanoeuver and pick off isolated elements, suppression of defences to pave the way for the cheaper and more numerous bulk of the force- which had better exist or you really are that stuffed.

[Zwinmar]

I was wondering if a Y-wing couldnt be fully utilized by a single pilot, utilizing an actual gunnery droid. Seems to be that the droids are sufficiently high tech to allow something like that. Even if you dont consider wank-fest, an astromec droid seems like it be a magnatude greater in complexity than a gunnery droid would be. I could be wrong there though.

[Mad]

Mike Stackpole and Aaron Allston are notorious for assuming that individual superiority trumps numbers, and for writing so- the Rogue Squadron comics and novels for the chief example.

They also assume that Rogue and Wraith squadrons are elite pilots always going up against a bunch of rookies. When those pilots have to fly a TIE Interceptor or whatever, they still own everything they come up against. (They just can't do the retarded "fly perfectly straight and fire lasers at each other until the non-shielded fighter dies" tactic.)

IIRC, when some of the pilots got a chance to fly a TIE Defender, they still preferred to return their X-wings after trying out the Defenders.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

As far as the inexperience of their (Wraith/Rogue Squadrons') enemies goes, before Endor I could actually believe it.
Compare the sheer size of the Imperial armed forces to the magnitude of their enemies; except very, very early on, immediate post-republic versus live, non-droid elements of the confederation, it's a huge scale imbalance.

So much so that it makes me think there couldn't have been enough targets to go round. The odd pirate, the very occasional rebel; fools, idiots and smugglers- possibly a blue-on-blue (black on black?) with renegade Imperial forces, but not very many of those, and notorious when they did happen.

So yes, I would be willing to accept that up until the breakup of the Empire post- Endor, the only action the overwhelming (90%+) majority of Imperial pilots had seen was on the news.

This raises a couple of interesting questions; as far as I can make sense of it, the whole 'disposability' idea has behind it the rationale of the bloodbaths of the Clone Wars. The fighter forces are preconditioned to expect, and as far as possible continue to function despite, very heavy losses. They exist on a war footing.

What happens to an organisation designed to function under great stress when that stress isn't there? Hardened for total war, but with hardly anybody to fight?

The other thing is, that lack of live fire doesn't stop them being very well trained. They should have extensive simulator and exercise mission experience- skills not a problem, tactical judgement perhaps a shade under-ripened.
Crazy maybe, but not stupid.

The Y-wing's turret; it's entry in the complete ICS suggests that

...the Y-wing offers slightly better targeting precision than the X-wing, one reason why Y-wings were the primary attack craft in the Death Star trench.

but that

the Y-wing features twin ion cannon, but they are notoriously delicate mechanisms. Their crystal matrices invariably get vibrated out of alignment in flight and combat.

That sounds to me as if it's not as much an aiming problem as it is that the physical reliability of the weapon is highly questionable. How long does it take for an invariable? Is the time to failure in days? Minutes or seconds? Is this a problem you can solve only by dismounting it and hauling it off to a workshop, or by reaching back with a mallet?

I reckon on the two seat version, BTL-S3, that's what the gunner must spend most of their time doing- continually maintaining and recalibrating the weapon. A sufficiently sophisticated droid could do that.

Footnote and late entrant; there was a medium fighter-bomber, West End derived- in Planets of the Galaxy vol 1, called the Shobquix Gauntlet. It was same manoeuvrability as the Y-wing, slightly slower, moderate shielding, and carried twin medium lasers and a single proton torpedo launcher in a manned turret. Fairly expensive, 70K used or thereabouts- but the turret looked from the artwork to be dorsal aft, with good fields of fire in a broad cone aft and all around above the line of the wings.

It's performance and payload are too low to come anywhere near 'greatest' itself, but it would be an unreasonably difficult opponent for most fighters. How many other turret fighters are out there?

[Lord Relvenous]

Well i can't think of any other turret fighters other than the Y-wing, and i had never heard of your Shobquix Gauntlet. But i can think of two rear fire capable fighters off the top of my head. The ARC-170 had rear fire controlled by a gunner, and the Adumari Blade-32 had a pilot controlled rear fire weapon.

Wait, the Blade-28, a Blade variant designed for bombing, had a gunner and turret. I scanned wikipedia, which i know isn't a very reliable source, I didn't see anything mentioned about turret capable fighters.

[Sidewinder]

I was wondering if a Y-wing couldnt be fully utilized by a single pilot, utilizing an actual gunnery droid. Seems to be that the droids are sufficiently high tech to allow something like that. Even if you dont consider wank-fest, an astromec droid seems like it be a magnatude greater in complexity than a gunnery droid would be. I could be wrong there though.

Children of the Jedi specifically states that computers cannot aim weapons as accurately as humans, which suggests that in the 'Star Wars' universe, the technology for fire control computers is primitive compared to what we've achieved with the Phalanx CIWS

[Zwinmar]

I was wondering if a Y-wing couldnt be fully utilized by a single pilot, utilizing an actual gunnery droid. Seems to be that the droids are sufficiently high tech to allow something like that. Even if you dont consider wank-fest, an astromec droid seems like it be a magnatude greater in complexity than a gunnery droid would be. I could be wrong there though.

Children of the Jedi specifically states that computers cannot aim weapons as accurately as humans, which suggests that in the 'Star Wars' universe, the technology for fire control computers is primitive compared to what we've achieved with the Phalanx CIWS

lol, ok, I was wrong there then, even though that really makes no sense.

[Surlethe]

I was wondering if a Y-wing couldnt be fully utilized by a single pilot, utilizing an actual gunnery droid. Seems to be that the droids are sufficiently high tech to allow something like that. Even if you dont consider wank-fest, an astromec droid seems like it be a magnatude greater in complexity than a gunnery droid would be. I could be wrong there though.

Children of the Jedi specifically states that computers cannot aim weapons as accurately as humans, which suggests that in the 'Star Wars' universe, the technology for fire control computers is primitive compared to what we've achieved with the Phalanx CIWS

lol, ok, I was wrong there then, even though that really makes no sense.

Makes no sense? It's absolutely retarded. They have actual turing-test AI, the computing power an astronav computer represents, and still have fire-control with simply human reflexes?

[Sidewinder]

What can I say? Most of the EU makes no sense.

[Ypoknons]

IIRC, when some of the pilots got a chance to fly a TIE Defender, they still preferred to return their X-wings after trying out the Defenders.

The Rogues and Wraiths were veteran pilots with years of experience flying X-Wings and other non-TIE craft. They might just prefer the X-Wing's familiarity, knowledge of its quirks, rather than raw performance. Rather like how the FW-190 is often seen as a better fighter overall but many aces preferred the BF-109.

[FTeik]

Children of the Jedi specifically states that computers cannot aim weapons as accurately as humans, which suggests that in the 'Star Wars' universe, the technology for fire control computers is primitive compared to what we've achieved with the Phalanx CIWS

lol, ok, I was wrong there then, even though that really makes no sense.

Makes no sense? It's absolutely retarded. They have actual turing-test AI, the computing power an astronav computer represents, and still have fire-control with simply human reflexes?

It also directly contradicts the AotC-novel and the OT:ICS. Not to mention ANH itself, where the rebels have their targeting-computers looking for the exhaust-port, but that is Barbara Hambley for you.

Concerning the successes of Rogue- and Wraith-squadron against TIEs in the years after Endor I would blame it on the declining shape of the Imperial Military: top pilots and squadrons were either annihilated during the infighting among the Imperials or they found themself in the deep core until Palpatine launched his final campaign. To close the manpower-gaps the Imps decided to go accept lower standards. And at least with Rogue-squadron you have to admit, that a large percentage of them was trained by the empire.

[Uraniun235]

Not to mention ANH itself, where the rebels have their targeting-computers looking for the exhaust-port, but that is Barbara Hambley for you.

The same targeting computers which resulted in a miss on the first pass?

(It's still retarded, though.)

[TC Pilot]

"That's impossible, even for a computer!"

[Alexandrov]

Suffice to say, everyone who has posted on this thread thus far has a level of Star Wars knowledge that I will never attain.

(Not intended to be demeaning at all, just an observation.)

[Thanas]

I always thought the reason they were using their eyes is that because of the insane amount of ECM during combat, computers were not very efficient.

[Ritterin Sophia]

I always thought the reason they were using their eyes is that because of the insane amount of ECM during combat, computers were not very efficient.

Of course WE would say that, we're techies, we look at the dialogue and read the novels and see that there's enough ECM being put out to affect a starfighters maneuverability, most of the others don't, they're the people who're still going 'Lolz crappy ST Accuracy' and 'Glorified Teddy Bears beat the Empire', rather than looking and saying, 'Okay, the Stormtroopers were obviously letting them go and making it look real by purposefully missing, but still getting near headshots whilst firing from the hip and singing Hans hair' and 'Chewie stole the AT-ST and changed the course of the battle'. No they interpret it as Star Wars having inaccurate computers. Hell, for that computer to hit with that much accuracy with that amount of ECM being put out, we could throw the heaviest jammers and best ECM's modern technology gives us and it would still hit with perfect accuracy, everytime.

[bz249]

IMHO the greatest starfighter is the very basic TIE/In, because it has every characteristics of a war-winning machine: cheap, reliable, easy to modify for specific purposes (rc,fc,gt...) highly maneuverable and able to deliver a considerable amount of punch.

They had somewhat better sensor capabilities than the Rebel crafts which is highly important in their designed role (CAP, recon and fire control).

I see the lack of hyperdrive no problem at all for a fighter designed mainly for planetary defense and scout plane/CAP for star destroyer battlegroups. (On the other hand the Rebels needed a hyper-capable craft, because of their lack of cap-ships). For such a plane the hyperdrive only adds deadweight which seriously hampers the manueveribility thus the chance of survival. As far as I remember the Clone War era fighters (or most of them) used separate hyperdrive blocks also.

Shielding: good question whether having a shield (thus weight and energy consumption) in a dogfight is a good idea or a bad one. It is the good old armor vs speed debate which might have a history of some millenia in the GFFA. However the fighters are designed for battles with heavy capship presence and against the hundreds of point defense guns on a destroyer sized vessel... well I think shield means nothing.

Life support: these planes are designed relatively short term missions so having a bigger sensor pack is better use of weight than having a life support system.

So if I had to choose the Hurricane (or the Sherman) of the GFFA it is the very basic TIE fighter.