Swords destroying tanks in civilization

[Stark]

Oh I'm pretty pro-AC, I just haven't played in ages so I couldn't recall my experiences. The whole unit/tech/design/cost part of the game was better and more sensible than Civ. I guess it's a shame that the 'historical strategy' genre is basically Civilisation - even the GC2 system is better.

Wow, it came out in 1999. Did they ignore it for all later Sid Meier-brand games?

[Vendetta]

Wow, it came out in 1999. Did they ignore it for all later Sid Meier-brand games?

Yeah, they pretty much scrapped everything AC had introduced with Civ 3. I think I finished one game of 3 and stopped in palpable disgust at how retrograde it was. Even Civ 2 had less fucked combat. (it was the endless herds of Elephants that did it. The Indians had billions of them, and they could handily trample my fully mechanised and modern army, given sufficient waves, whereas in Civ 2 or AC even a whole legion of crap troops won't overcome a significantly superior defender. I think they imported them from Dwarf Fortress.)

[CmdrWilkens]

It really is sad that from a combat perspective Civ2 was probably the best put together segment though Civ4 has tried slowly and surely to make its way there. The problem is that its hard with the limited number of late-era techs to really allow for the incremental improvements in mdoern warfare without forcing all players to incur huge costs in terms of re-equipping. While admittedly this is true to life its really hard to have an early bi-plane follow by a WWII era prop fighter followed by an early model jet fighter then a supersonic jet fighter then a stealthy jet fighter. Without allowing for the huge number of new units such distinctions would make you have to find a way to balance the single technology jump which allows you to leap from prop to stealthy jet. Simply put unless you do add in all the intermediate units and give them incrementally better abilities to the point that 2-3 levels means an impossibility of matching performance you have to find a way to balance the game. So yes you lose realism but play balance is going to be required.

Still the firepower and hitpoint system worked FAR better than the simplistic "power" stat that Civ4 is using. Honestly about the only way to make the current system work would to be adding a +100% against units from a previous era and +200% from units from 2 or more eras previously. With a Modern Armor already at 40 (+ 2 upgrades with Barracks and Vassalage, Theocracy or even just the Pentagon) there would just be no way for anything earlier than a regular tank (or now the anti-tank infantry) to take it on even in huge waves.

[Nephtys]

I sorta liked Call to Power. While at some point, massive numbers of older units (within reason) swamped newer ones (three modern 1990's tanks vs 1 hoverfushonspacetank), you got all those newer abilities. Like deeper water travel, longer aircraft range, transatmospheric flight, underwater/amphib ability, etc. that more than made up for similarities in power.

[Stark]

CmdrWilkens, it's called 'unit upgrades'. Either paying to upgrade units to related units or destroying them to provide resources for newer versions under construction would instantly fix that problem. It's no more retarded to upgrade a phalanx to a legion or a rifleman to a mech inf than it is to have that phalanx operational for 2,000 years at the same cost.

Oh wait, I just out-thought the entire Civ development team for the last four years.

[Vympel]

Civ III was the most worthless piece of shit iteration of the Civ combat system in history. What they were thinking, I don't know, but Civ II is much better.

I'm a lot less nuanced in my view of how modern units should handle obsolescent units.

Ready?

Battleship vs Trireme.

The Trireme will always, always, always get sunk. There's a simple switch in the code or something. Automatic loss of that unit. No animation. Not hitpoint reduction. Automatic loss. Period.

[PeZook]

Battleship vs Trireme.

The Trireme will always, always, always get sunk. There's a simple switch in the code or something. Automatic loss of that unit. No animation. Not hitpoint reduction. Automatic loss. Period.

You know, I never really noticed problems with Civ III ground combat. The "lose tanks to spearmen" syndrome was simply never significant enough.

But on the sea, it's just insane. I was regularly losing destroyers to wooden frigates, because the naval units are so hopelessly few that they don't really progress well through the ages. Witness how the frigate is only a minor improvement over the trireme, while similar era ground units will, in fact, trample earlier eras (if with some silliness).

Oh, and I liked CivIII. They introduced too much 3D flashyness for no gain in Civ IV, and gutted naval units even more.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Battleship vs Trireme.

The Trireme will always, always, always get sunk. There's a simple switch in the code or something. Automatic loss of that unit. No animation. Not hitpoint reduction. Automatic loss. Period.

You know, I never really noticed problems with Civ III ground combat. The "lose tanks to spearmen" syndrome was simply never significant enough.

But on the sea, it's just insane. I was regularly losing destroyers to wooden frigates, because the naval units are so hopelessly few that they don't really progress well through the ages. Witness how the frigate is only a minor improvement over the trireme, while similar era ground units will, in fact, trample earlier eras (if with some silliness).

Oh, and I liked CivIII. They introduced too much 3D flashyness for no gain in Civ IV, and gutted naval units even more.

At least CivIII's scenarios in the Warlords expansion were fun.

But the scenarios in the Conquerers did not excite.

[Darth Fanboy]

Good old Civ II, it still had its problems, but nothing that couldn't be fix by going into their setup and changing all of the values so that more modern units had much higher stats, making it more realistic when the inevitable horde of chariots came up to a city protected by marines and Mech Inf. Best thing about Civ II was the customizing, so easy to make new units and such.

Still though Civ II Test of Time's Fantasy and Sci Fi modes are still probably my favorite versions of the game.

[White Haven]

Screw BB v Trireme, how about an old-school wooden frigate versus a goddamn NUCLEAR SUBMARINE! That...that broke my mind. I simply quit and uninstalled on the spot.

[Rightous Fist Of Heaven]

Screw BB v Trireme, how about an old-school wooden frigate versus a goddamn NUCLEAR SUBMARINE! That...that broke my mind. I simply quit and uninstalled on the spot.

In Civ 4 Beyond the Sword, Age of Sail era warships can still attack and damge Nuclear Attack Submarines. They cant really do jack nor crap worth of damage against them, but they can attack them. Ahh, the utter silliness of Civilization combat mechanics.

[Nephtys]

Screw BB v Trireme, how about an old-school wooden frigate versus a goddamn NUCLEAR SUBMARINE! That...that broke my mind. I simply quit and uninstalled on the spot.

Worse. I've had jet fighters taken down by Horse Archers. Or Lancers. Those are mighty accurate and long-ranging lances.

[SpacedTeddyBear]

Maybe as the spearmen are being blown to pieces by the tanks, some of the guts inadvertently gets lodged into the barrel of the main gun, thus jamming it..............

[MKSheppard]

What really pissed me off was how in Civ 3, they fucked up the scarcity of resources. Why is it that it's nearly impossible to find Iron or Coal? Jesus christ, those were the most fucking common elements in the earth's crust; it's not like we're looking for frigging diamonds here.

Oil fields were also shittily done. They should have done a gaussian distribution of them all around the world, with a few regions getting a heavy bonus to possibility of oil fields.

[chitoryu12]

Screw BB v Trireme, how about an old-school wooden frigate versus a goddamn NUCLEAR SUBMARINE! That...that broke my mind. I simply quit and uninstalled on the spot.

Worse. I've had jet fighters taken down by Horse Archers. Or Lancers. Those are mighty accurate and long-ranging lances.

Maybe they were explosive lances?

[The Yosemite Bear]

I just lost one of my six tanks attacking a fortified english longbowman with elite stats, in a fortified city the other night. The tank had been damaged (along with the rest of the tanks in his stack) by 4 failed trebuchet strikes, and several knight charges the previous turn)

edit (I think those longbowmen must have dropped a city wall on the tanks)

[RogueIce]

Screw BB v Trireme, how about an old-school wooden frigate versus a goddamn NUCLEAR SUBMARINE! That...that broke my mind. I simply quit and uninstalled on the spot.

In Civ 4 Beyond the Sword, Age of Sail era warships can still attack and damge Nuclear Attack Submarines. They cant really do jack nor crap worth of damage against them, but they can attack them. Ahh, the utter silliness of Civilization combat mechanics.

How the hell can it attack them if it can't see them? Or did it have a "spotter" unit nearby?

[Qwerty 42]

Screw BB v Trireme, how about an old-school wooden frigate versus a goddamn NUCLEAR SUBMARINE! That...that broke my mind. I simply quit and uninstalled on the spot.

In Civ 4 Beyond the Sword, Age of Sail era warships can still attack and damge Nuclear Attack Submarines. They cant really do jack nor crap worth of damage against them, but they can attack them. Ahh, the utter silliness of Civilization combat mechanics.

How the hell can it attack them if it can't see them? Or did it have a "spotter" unit nearby?

I just got the mental image of a pirate sitting at a sonar station, listening intently with big headphones.

[Lonestar]

What really pissed me off was how in Civ 3, they fucked up the scarcity of resources. Why is it that it's nearly impossible to find Iron or Coal? Jesus christ, those were the most fucking common elements in the earth's crust; it's not like we're looking for frigging diamonds here.

Oil fields were also shittily done. They should have done a gaussian distribution of them all around the world, with a few regions getting a heavy bonus to possibility of oil fields.

Resource distribution pissed me off mightily. Why should I have to build roads to nowhere in order to resources halfway across the continent? When there are terrain squares of the same type within my existing area? Why wasn't there an "advanced mining" tech which reveal more resources?

[Andrew_Fireborn]

Because, while it was a decent idea to spice up the diplomacy side of things, it was executed horribly like most everything in Civ III...

Didn't know about the sub bit... that just makes it all the more sad. SMAC will probably remain the best of Meier's work for a good time to come...

[Ritterin Sophia]

Battleship vs Trireme.

The Trireme will always, always, always get sunk. There's a simple switch in the code or something. Automatic loss of that unit. No animation. Not hitpoint reduction. Automatic loss. Period.

What? No Battleship just running over the Trireme whilst the little wooden boat impotently fires at it's hull?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Resource distribution pissed me off mightily. Why should I have to build roads to nowhere in order to resources halfway across the continent? When there are terrain squares of the same type within my existing area? Why wasn't there an "advanced mining" tech which reveal more resources?

I simply cheated.

Seriously, the idea of scouring across the planet and only finding one miserable oil field is preposterous.

[chitoryu12]

It distinctly reminds me of Rise of Nations. It actually takes a battleship several shots to sink a small wooden fishing boat.

[Nephtys]

It distinctly reminds me of Rise of Nations. It actually takes a battleship several shots to sink a small wooden fishing boat.

You mean the RTS where every land soldier, vehicle or horseguy lines up Napoleon-style into a giant line and fires at each other, from archers to Navy SEALs? And that cities are only mildly irritated at being hit by nuclear weapos?

[chitoryu12]

It distinctly reminds me of Rise of Nations. It actually takes a battleship several shots to sink a small wooden fishing boat.

You mean the RTS where every land soldier, vehicle or horseguy lines up Napoleon-style into a giant line and fires at each other, from archers to Navy SEALs? And that cities are only mildly irritated at being hit by nuclear weapos?

Yes. How did you know?