D&D 4th edition!?!?

[lPeregrine]

Apparently it's true. The official site is down from the traffic spike, but the news is out: http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/11123.html .

Wizards of the Coast is announcing at GenCon today that it will release the 4th Edition of its category-leading Dungeons and Dragon roleplaying game in 2008, the first full new edition in eight years. The three core books will be released next summer on a monthly schedule: Player's Handbook in May, Monster Manual in June, and Dungeon Master's Guide in July. Pricing and page counts of the new products will be consistent with current packaging. Graphics have been updated, art will be used on the covers, and interior design has been opened up to make the books less intimidating to new players.

Lead-in products, Wizards Presents: Classes and Races and Wizards Presents: Worlds and Monsters, will be released in December. An April release, Keep of the Shadowfell, will include a set of quickstart rules for 4E.

While there are changes in play (such as incorporating "epic-level play," with 30 levels instead of 20), they are described as "evolutionary" rather than "revolutionary." Other changes include new power sources, changes in resource management, and new encounter design, and more clearly defined monster roles. Changes will speed play, make the game easier to learn, and make DM-ing easier. Concepts for 4th Edition gameplay were tested in the new Star Wars RPG, and the Book of 9 Swords.

What the company does describe as revolutionary is the method of product delivery, which will incorporate online play for the first time. WotC is incorporating online components into the game through a new Website, DnDInsider.com. Each paper product will include codes to unlock digital versions on the site for a "nominal" activation fee. Players will also be able to use DnDInsider tools and access regular new content similar to the material that was previously released in Dragon and Dungeon magazines (see "Interview with Liz Schuh") for a monthly fee (as yet undetermined) greater than the old subscription price, but less than a MMORPG subscription. Magazine-style content will be added to the site three times a week and compiled into digital "issues" monthly.

Gameplay features on the Web will include a digital D&D game table, and voice chat and text messaging, to allow online players to communicate with each other. The online play is designed to "supplement, not replace" meatspace play.

The Open Gaming License will continue as it has in the past, allowing the use of the rules in other publishers' games.

Work on the new edition began in 2005, with the major work all accomplished in the last year.

D&D products released between now and the launch of 4th Edition will fall into three groups. Edition-proof products (which are mostly story) will not include mechanics that are edition-specific. Some products will be "enhanced" to 4th Edition mechanics after release through DnDInsider, and a couple of series will end as 3.5 products.

The setting for the core books are campaign neutral. Forgotten Realms will be the first campaign setting to be updated (in August 2008). Other campaign settings will be updated at a rate of one per year.

Marketing support will initially focus on migrating the existing player base, and then move to an acquisition strategy to re-activate lapsed players and acquire new ones. Midnight launch parties will be used to kick off sales of the first new release in May.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

So, it's just 3.6 with a name to make all the fans shell out.

[Stark]

It sounds like a pretty small change, including various fixes most competent GMs would have cooked up by themselves. What a fabulous business model!

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

It sounds like a pretty small change, including various fixes most competent GMs would have cooked up by themselves. What a fabulous business model!

Dude, Clerics of the Coasts runs on 100-page hardcovers priced around $50, then secon printings +errata. They're tricky motherfuckers. Still, they do some good work( Reading Lords of Madness right now).

[Zwinmar]

I really dont see a point in a 4th Edition, the online thing sounds more like DDO than DnD

[SCRawl]

I was happy with 1st edition. Needless to say, 4th won't be on my menu.

[Solauren]

If it's backwards compatable with 3.5 like 3.5 was to 3.0, I'll continue to support it. Given Wizards track record with Magic: The Gathering in this regard, I'm hopeful. (Note: I don't own any magic cards, but I've enjoyed the game with print outs / photo copies and other peoples cards.)

However, if it's not backwards compatable, screw that. I've put to much money into it. Combine with the ease I have back converting older stuff to 3.5, and the fact I have it all, I don't need additional content. I just like owning it

(I converted "Against the Cult of the Reptile God on the fly and my players thought I'd pre-converted it. ALl I did was note monster pages in the Monster Manual)

I'm quite, quite happy with 3.5.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

WotC has an excellent business model. In large quantities, you can print 300 page hardcover books in full color for less than $5, so think about how much they're raking in at $30, $40, and even $50 for a veritable army of books which the diehards will purchase and repurchase over and over.

[Steven Snyder]

If I had to speculate based on the above I would expect the following changes...

AC Bonuses from Armor now replaced with Damage Reduction.
Vitality/Wound points replacing the Hit Point system.
Complete reworking of the Critical Hit system to use the DR/VP/VW system.
Spellcasting now depletes the PC's Vitality points instead of Spell Slots.

I also predict that Attribute stats will be changed to use the modifier rather than the score that is then converted to a modifier. For example Redgar has a Strength of +3 instead of a Strength of 16.

I actually liked the Starwars system and I look forward to this.

[Imperial Overlord]

If I had to speculate based on the above I would expect the following changes...

AC Bonuses from Armor now replaced with Damage Reduction.
Vitality/Wound points replacing the Hit Point system.
Complete reworking of the Critical Hit system to use the DR/VP/VW system.
Spellcasting now depletes the PC's Vitality points instead of Spell Slots.

I also predict that Attribute stats will be changed to use the modifier rather than the score that is then converted to a modifier. For example Redgar has a Strength of +3 instead of a Strength of 16.

I actually liked the Starwars system and I look forward to this.

That's very unlikely. Its the Saga editions of the Star Wars RPG that is the one they are going to use as a basis for 4th edition and they dropped the vitality point system in the Saga Edition. Nor did they go to a Damage Reduction system for armour.

[Erik von Nein]

Besides which, the whole "armor has damage reduction" was done in the Unearthed Aracana book. That thing's definintly 3.5 ed.

[Stormbringer]

It sounds like a pretty small change, including various fixes most competent GMs would have cooked up by themselves. What a fabulous business model!

Dude, Clerics of the Coasts runs on 100-page hardcovers priced around $50, then secon printings +errata. They're tricky motherfuckers. Still, they do some good work( Reading Lords of Madness right now).

They have to keep producing stuff, whether there is any rational need for it or not. WotC literally cannot say enough is enough and stop with out their business collapsing. To an extent that's true for all RPG companies but it's especially so for WotC because of their gigantic size.

No doubt this "new edition" is an attempt to overcome the slump in gaming by forcing a "must have" onto gamers. They couldn't squeeze more out of umpteen million supplements, in part because gamers didn't need them and part because other companies have made a huge dent in that market. So they do a little tweaking and unless a new edition, which then inspires a whole bunch of people to buy it and the whole slew of "updated" supplements sure to follow.

[Uraniun235]

Wonder how one of my friends will take this... he's got damn near every WOTC D&D 3/3.5 book published.

[Spin Echo]

Doesn't seem to be enough new stuff there to me to justify shilling out the money for the new set of books. I thought the updates that came with the 3.0 edition were good. I could deal with the thac0 calculations, but some of the less mathematically inclined had problems.

What is "more clearly defined monster roles" supposed to mean anyway?

Addendum:

They have to keep producing stuff, whether there is any rational need for it or not. WotC literally cannot say enough is enough and stop with out their business collapsing. To an extent that's true for all RPG companies but it's especially so for WotC because of their gigantic size.

I've been told (haven't actually experienced it much due to our DM's gaming style) that versions 3.x are slanted toward minatures in play. I wonder if that trend will continue, as minatures are way to continue making money as the people are gaming, not just up front with the books.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

What is "more clearly defined monster roles" supposed to mean anyway?

Thinly disguised race warfare.

[Ritterin Sophia]

If I had to speculate based on the above I would expect the following changes...

AC Bonuses from Armor now replaced with Damage Reduction.
Vitality/Wound points replacing the Hit Point system.
Complete reworking of the Critical Hit system to use the DR/VP/VW system.
Spellcasting now depletes the PC's Vitality points instead of Spell Slots.

I also predict that Attribute stats will be changed to use the modifier rather than the score that is then converted to a modifier. For example Redgar has a Strength of +3 instead of a Strength of 16.

I actually liked the Starwars system and I look forward to this.

That's very unlikely. Its the Saga editions of the Star Wars RPG that is the one they are going to use as a basis for 4th edition and they dropped the vitality point system in the Saga Edition. Nor did they go to a Damage Reduction system for armour.

Actually SWRPG had DR for Armour, Saga took that away, needless to say it's very simple to change it back so I'm not worried.

[The Yosemite Bear]

wait till they start releasing "patches" in the form of addendums/codexes that will further ofescate and make the game unreasonably confusing and then demand that you pay them 15 bucks a month to continue playing....

[Ritterin Sophia]

wait till they start releasing "patches" in the form of addendums/codexes that will further ofescate and make the game unreasonably confusing and then demand that you pay them 15 bucks a month to continue playing....

Do you mean obfuscate?

[The Yosemite Bear]

do not harrass the grumpy bear with bad spelling abilities...

[Imperial Overlord]

That's very unlikely. Its the Saga editions of the Star Wars RPG that is the one they are going to use as a basis for 4th edition and they dropped the vitality point system in the Saga Edition. Nor did they go to a Damage Reduction system for armour.

Actually SWRPG had DR for Armour, Saga took that away, needless to say it's very simple to change it back so I'm not worried.

I'm quite aware of that. That's why I referred specifically to how they did it in the Saga Edition, which is the direction they are going in. An armour DR system would be my preference, but they didn't go there with the Saga Edition and the one they whipped up in the Unearthed Arcana had problems because it was just a quick kludged add on to the system. I doubt they will go to it now. Wizards is quite conservative about making changes to the game, in part I'm sure so they can sell new editions every couple of years.

Yes, the new systems have been minature geared. Easy enough to ignore if you want (the rules work fine without using minatures and they obviously don't want to alienate any part of their market), but they've discovered the GW minature money train and they want a chunk of that for themselves.

[weemadando]

Are they taking the SW: Saga Edition route and moving it to exclusively miniature based combat resolution with no standard ranges or other non-grid square references?

[Imperial Overlord]

Are they taking the SW: Saga Edition route and moving it to exclusively miniature based combat resolution with no standard ranges or other non-grid square references?

Probably, but those convert easily enough that its not a real problem with the Saga Edition. They also moved away from some of the sillier WEG derived rules (you don't automatically get Dark Side points for using the Force to slap around some bad guys, for example) and shielded capital ships are nicely resistant to fighter attacks.

[Stormbringer]

They have to keep producing stuff, whether there is any rational need for it or not. WotC literally cannot say enough is enough and stop with out their business collapsing. To an extent that's true for all RPG companies but it's especially so for WotC because of their gigantic size.

I've been told (haven't actually experienced it much due to our DM's gaming style) that versions 3.x are slanted toward minatures in play. I wonder if that trend will continue, as minatures are way to continue making money as the people are gaming, not just up front with the books.

Quite possibly. They already have a lot of stuff geared towards that aspect of gaming. I know they have a boatload of generic miniatures and battle maps and dugeon tiles. So they're definitely plumbing the market. That said, you can still manage just fine with grid paper and colored dice so it's not necessarily going to dominate their business market.

Of course, D20 has it's origins in a miniatures wargame and never strayed too far from it's roots, especially for the by the book gamer. So I don't think there is necessarily any deliberate shift in the game towards making miniatures a bigger part of the game. Miniatures are and have been a natural outgrowth of it's wargames like mechanics for ages. WotC is moving into the market but in many ways it's a reaction to the fact that people were already using collectible minis or wargames figures already.

[Rogue 9]

So, it's just 3.6 with a name to make all the fans shell out.

Whatever else it is, it isn't that. The conversion process is supposed to be so complex that they're ending Living Greyhawk rather than porting the campaign.

I'm posting from GenCon right now, and was in the room when they made the initial announcement. We got a lot of hype, but apparently the base classes have been expanded into a 30 level progression rather than 20, most of the rules are being massively streamlined (probably meaning they're cutting a lot of stuff that didn't need to be cut), and the class power progressions have been smoothed out so there's not a huge power gap at higher levels. I've been getting conflicting reports on whether or not 4e will fall under the Open Gaming License, but the most reliable sources I've talked to say it will be.

On a personal note, I'm not happy with this whole thing. They claim that they've made the classes balanced over all thirty levels, which I find highly unlikely. The d20 system, which it's still based on, breaks down when you get into very high-level play, simply because the bonuses get so huge that the die roll stops mattering.

[Stormbringer]

So, it's just 3.6 with a name to make all the fans shell out.

Whatever else it is, it isn't that. The conversion process is supposed to be so complex that they're ending Living Greyhawk rather than porting the campaign.

Which may or may not really mean something. Naturally they're going to be promoting it as making the old stuff instantly and entirely obsolete. They wouldn't get many people that eager to replace the literal mountains of stuff that they've produced (let alone OGL material) if they didn't sell it that way. I for one would wait to see the actual material before deciding that their promotional material is on the up and up; this could easily just be hype.

On a personal note, I'm not happy with this whole thing. They claim that they've made the classes balanced over all thirty levels, which I find highly unlikely. The d20 system, which it's still based on, breaks down when you get into very high-level play, simply because the bonuses get so huge that the die roll stops mattering.

Whether they try and reinvent the wheel or not, D20 has always had major issues. D20 is so heavily mechanical, and rather simplistic mechanics at that, that the whole thing has issues top to bottom. If you're going to do D20, at a certain point you just have to lump, work around it, or find another game system.