Command Carrier vs. Executor...

[Big Orange]

After seeing a late night repeat of Farscape where our merry band board Scorpy's personal Command Carrier, I wonder how this massive flagship of the Peacekeeper fleet would contend with the Galactic Empire's standard flagship, the Executor-class Star Destroyer?

I guess the Executor has vastly superior FTL and shielding, while the Command Carrier has a larger fleet escort of gunships (although a Executor likely always has five or six ISDs as escorts), fightercraft capacity (Prowlers are likely better than most TIEs) and bigger weaponry.

And there is question of size comparison: in "Into the Lion's Den Part I: Lambs to the Slaughter", one of Moya's shuttles goes into the main docking bay which is located within the shadow of the Command Carrier's main ring structure that encircles the entire hull and houses the warship's primariy weapons, the frag cannons. Judging by the size of the escorting gunships (comparable in size to Moya) and the swarm of fighters being totally dwarfed by just one section of hull's outer superstructure, the Command Carrier seems vastly bigger than a ISD and more similar in size to an Executor (although according to Starship Dimensions, a Executor is much longer than a Command Carrier and a standard Scarran Dreadnaught is perhaps somewhere in between).

[Noble Ire]

I don't recall many instances throughout the series which would allow for the quantification of Peacekeeper firepower. However, the main Frag cannons of a command carrier have an extremely short range, less than 50 kilometers, and they only have four of them. Executor-class Star Dreadnaughts have thousands of turbolaser turrets, each of which has an effective range of thousands of kilometers, and can fire on "immobile" targets from light-minutes or even light-hours away. Unless Peacekeeper shielding is powerful enough to shrug off blasts on the order of hundreds or thousands of gigatons indefinitely, and I can recall nothing from the show that would indicate shield strengths anywhere near the level, the Executor could bombard a command carrier into oblivion with impunity.

[McC]

I guess the Executor has vastly superior FTL and shielding, while the Command Carrier has a larger fleet escort of gunships (although a Executor likely always has five or six ISDs as escorts), fightercraft capacity (Prowlers are likely better than most TIEs) and bigger weaponry.

Bear in mind that the command carrier in the episode you're referencing was the base of operations for Peacekeeper wormhole research at that point, so was likely much more heavily guarded than would be a standard command carrier. I suspect that the multiple-carrier convoy that Crais is pictured flying with in season one is more likely standard fare. If I remember correctly, there were two or three carriers escorted by a handful of Pantak-class Vigilantes (the mid-size PK capital ship).

It more or less goes without saying that hyperdrive is faster than Hetch drive, which seems to be anecdotally equivalent to warp drive in Star Trek, in terms of galaxy-traversing velocities. The reason I say that is that there are frequent references to Hetch velocities in terms of what might be called "factors" (Hetch two, Hetch nine, etc.). Hyperdrive and starburst might be similar, though we don't really have any good benchmark for knowing that at all.

Shielding on both vessels is likely to be comparable, technologically, with their firepower. As much as Executor can dish out, it has a certain amount that it can take. I imagine that the command carriers will have a similar ratio of resilience-to-firepower, though the scales of the two may be entirely, utterly different (it could be 1000:1 or 1:1000 -- we can't really determine, so far as I know). We do have at least one example of a command carrier demonstrating pseudo-conformal barrier-style shielding, a la Star Trek (the episode "PK Tech Girl" specifically). We do not have any specific information on how resilient this shield was, but it resulted in the immediate destruction-on-impact of several one-man transport capsules with little noticeable effect as to the efficacy of the shield itself.

And there is question of size comparison: in "Into the Lion's Den Part I: Lambs to the Slaughter", one of Moya's shuttles goes into the main docking bay which is located within the shadow of the Command Carrier's main ring structure that encircles the entire hull and houses the warship's primariy weapons, the frag cannons. Judging by the size of the escorting gunships (comparable in size to Moya) and the swarm of fighters being totally dwarfed by just one section of hull's outer superstructure, the Command Carrier seems vastly bigger than a ISD and more similar in size to an Executor (although according to Starship Dimensions, a Executor is much longer than a Command Carrier and a standard Scarran Dreadnaught is perhaps somewhere in between).

You can more or less safely ignore any FarScape stuff on the starship dimensions site; it's derived from fan-created CG models. I actually know the guy who made most of them. But that aside, you are quite correct in presuming command carriers to be monstrously large. Moya, which is no small vessel in her own right, is severely dwarfed by the command carrier in the episode you mention, when she is brought near one of the carrier's ring-wings, and shown to be a fraction of its size. I doubt the command carrier is quite as long as Executor, but it may be more voluminous (given that it's a much blockier structure compared to Executor's fairly sleek overall design).

I think Noble Ire is right, though -- what we do know is that the range of the frag cannons, regardless of their firepower, is significantly shorter than the range of Executor's turbolasers. The specific quote that addresses this comes from the premiere episode, wherein Aeryn states their range to be 45 metras. We don't have a specific reference as to how long a distance a metra is. The command carrier is said to be "over a metra long," which suggests (given Moya's likely size, and how small she is compared to the command carrier) that it is significantly longer than a kilometer or mile. If it were close to a kilometer or mile, it would've likely been said to have been several metras in length. In any case, though, it is unlikely that a metra is more than an order of magnitude larger than a kilometer, so we can reasonably say that 45 metras is probably within 45-450 kilometers, vastly shorter than turbolaser range.

I'd love to go through and do a comprehensive technical analysis of FarScape space-faring technology at some point, which might answer a few of these open questions (which tend to be feebly addressed by fan sites, which do little more than regurgitate one another's scanty information).

[NecronLord]

Last time anyone here tried calculating the durability of a Command Carrier, the only benchline we had was that a transport pod converted to a bomb which appeared to have a multi gigaton blast (easily blanking out the screen from orbit, and causing a huge initial fireball, albeit one that then ignited the oily hydrosphere of the affected moon) would have had to catch Crais' command carrier with its shields down, and directly hit its command deck window according to Family Ties.

Frag Cannons are not necesserily the equivalent of battleship guns, either. When we see Command Carriers in several proper battle scenes in The Peacekeeper Wars. They don't use Frag cannons as their main ship-to-ship armament. They use 'Pantak Vigilante' class vessels and fighters for that, and appear to act solely as carriers and command vessels. They do what they say on the tin.

Weapons in Farscape, from Dargo's ship, to the Peacekeeper fighter-lauched intersystem ranged anti-leviathan missile in Promises, to Prowlers in The Peacekeeper Wars appear to significantly outclass defences, making fighter-based warfare rather practical. Frag cannons appear to be the exception, and are presumably for incapacitating ships or missiles at close range - compare with the far smaller Scarran Stryker commanded by Pennock in Bad Timing which was able to cripple Moya in a few seconds. While preforming a tremendously high G turn.

Incidentally, Strykers can outrun Leviathans, save using a special 'extended starburst' Emperor Staleek's Decimator class flagship is even faster. Starburst does not necesserily outrun conventional drives, so much as be extremely difficult to track. Though again, this is possible - the peacekeepers have a missile with the means to track Leviathans through starburst (and consequently, an interstellar range missile, albeit one designed around attacking a very specific target), but it requires a 'lock on' before it works.

Frankly, aside from a gigaton space-carbomb made by fugitives, there's just about fuck all to objectively quantify Farscape with. Aside from Commandant Grayza's instruction to Braca to prepare the carrier to 'Destroy a Planet' in Terra Firma, and the sheer freakyness of Emperor Staleek's destruction of the Great Temple at Arnessk (which would be quite impressive, if it weren't for the fact that it's some special effects weirdness that makes it incalculable) there's to quantify the power of Farscape capital weapons. The few calculable incidents for Farscape suggest some formidable weapons power, perhaps similar to 40K in power and energy density. Peacekeeper Pulse Pistols, on their maximum setting, have instantly vapourised sizeable holes in subjects, for example. An upper limit would be that no side appears to have the ability to quickly scatter the mass of a planet, nor quickly fragment it, as both Scarrans and Peacekeepers appear to be taken aback by the destruction of Qujaga in The Peacekeeper Wars.

It's almost as hard to quantify as the scale of various powers' operations in Farscape. Which can range from 'sixty years to cross the galaxy in a command carrier' to 'we're galactic empires'

I wouldn't bet on a Command Carrier in this situation, though. It is after all, much smaller, even if all else were equal.

[Winston Blake]

It's almost as hard to quantify as the scale of various powers' operations in Farscape. Which can range from 'sixty years to cross the galaxy in a command carrier' to 'we're galactic empires'

Is that 60 year figure referring to Scorpius' threat to attack Earth? I was under the impression that Earth was in another galaxy. After all, the intro does describe the Farscape setting as 'a distant part of the universe'.

[Batman]

How is any location that takes you 60 years to get to NOT a distant part of the universe in your frame of reference?

[Winston Blake]

How is any location that takes you 60 years to get to NOT a distant part of the universe in your frame of reference?

Scorpius didn't refer to it as a distant part of the universe, Crichton did from the very beginning of the series (stated in the intro to each episode). This was after traveling there in a matter of seconds through a wormhole. Since he's an astrophysicist you would expect him to say something like 'a distant part of the galaxy' if it all took place in the Milky Way.

[Jade Owl]

It's almost as hard to quantify as the scale of various powers' operations in Farscape. Which can range from 'sixty years to cross the galaxy in a command carrier' to 'we're galactic empires'

Is that 60 year figure referring to Scorpius' threat to attack Earth? I was under the impression that Earth was in another galaxy. After all, the intro does describe the Farscape setting as 'a distant part of the universe'.

In The Peacekeeper Wars, when the Eidolon is explaining to Aeryn the history of how they created the Sebacean race 27,000 years ago, he tells her that the Eidolons found her kind on a remote world on the galaxy's outer spiral. Since it is implied that this planet is Earth and the ancient proto-Sebaceans were humans, I think it's safe to asume that Earth is located in the same galaxy as the Uncharted territories, the Scarran Empiire, etc.

What is open to interpretation is what the Eidolon meant by "the galaxy's outer spiral". Does it mean that the region of space seen on the series is close to the galactic core, or does it mean that it's located at the oposite end of the galaxy from Earth?

[Winston Blake]

In The Peacekeeper Wars, when the Eidolon is explaining to Aeryn the history of how they created the Sebacean race 27,000 years ago, he tells her that the Eidolons found her kind on a remote world on the galaxy's outer spiral. Since it is implied that this planet is Earth and the ancient proto-Sebaceans were humans, I think it's safe to asume that Earth is located in the same galaxy as the Uncharted territories, the Scarran Empiire, etc.

Ah ok. Although bizarrely, in the trailer for The Peacekeeper Wars, John calls it 'the far end of the universe'. Farscape has got to be one of the most incalculable series ever, probably on purpose.

[NecronLord]

It's also open to interpretation whether Yondalau knows what he's talking about. He's a mediator and telepath, not an astronavigator. Not to mention one who's rather disoriented by events ("Peacekeepers do your duty!") and whose knowledge of other matters is woefully inaccurate due to being in suspended animation so long - not knowing anything about Scarrans, initially, for example. And that's assuming he actaully wanted to tell Aeryn et al where the Earth is.

[Big Orange]

I haven't seen The Peacekeeper Wars yet, so I don't want to see more mini spoilers, thank you (although I can talk ). However I did hear rumours about the Scarran fleet having a flagship that is even bigger than the already gigantic regular Scarran warships, which can eat regukar Command Carriers for breakfast - but I do know that from Scorpius' life story, that he himself cotacted a PK Command Carrier that managed to intercept and destroy a Scarran Dreadnought, even though a Scarran Dreadnought is roughly twice as large as the Command Carrier. Scorpius also said that the Scarrans outnumbered the Peace Keepers a staggering ten to one (although the odds must be more intimidating on paper, rather than necessarily in practice, due to force cohesion, logistics, tactics and unit quality having a factor).

[NecronLord]

I haven't seen The Peacekeeper Wars yet, so I don't want to see more mini spoilers, thank you (although I can talk ).

You should've said, then. It was out a couple of years ago now.

However I did hear rumours about the Scarran fleet having a flagship that is even bigger than the already gigantic regular Scarran warships,

Scarran Emperor Staleek's Decimator (he implies that there is more than one 'This Decimator will join the battlegroup...' so it's probably a class designation) does indeed appear. It's not larger, though, if anything it's smaller. It is, however, heavily armed, and apparently the fastest ship in the galaxy.

which can eat regukar Command Carriers for breakfast

It does not do so on screen, and does not appear to be capable of that. It's powerful enough, and very fast, but it's hardly a giant Emperor's flagship of death like the Eclipse.

- but I do know that from Scorpius' life story, that he himself cotacted a PK Command Carrier that managed to intercept and destroy a Scarran Dreadnought,

Correct. It got the drop on them, though.

even though a Scarran Dreadnought is roughly twice as large as the Command Carrier.

I'm not certain of that, I seem to remember something to that effect, but I can't place it. Regardless, while the Command Carrier diagram in Incubator appears to use the same class as later, it may not be the same class.

Scorpius also said that the Scarrans outnumbered the Peace Keepers a staggering ten to one (although the odds must be more intimidating on paper, rather than necessarily in practice, due to force cohesion, logistics, tactics and unit quality having a factor). More importantly, the Peacekeepers had the element of surprise there, and Scorpius. Which counts for a fair bit...

Quite the opposite. About all I can say without more spoilers is that the Scarrans have more effective logistics than even Scorpius thinks (in the episodes you're watching) they do. Scarran victory in a prolonged war is an absolute certainty.

The only real question is whether the 'ten to one' number reffers to the Scarrans themselves, or the Scarrans and their expendable meatshields, the Charrids. Whom (if you've been watching all the episodes) you've met already.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

I do believe that the 'ten to one' was in reference to Scarran soldiers. That is, boots on the ground. I imagined the gap in naval assets and economy were less, even if not significantly. After all, the Soviet military vastly outnumbered NATO's, yet in the end that didn't mean a damn, and wouldn't have meant too much in the event of Global Thermonuclear Conflict (God I love that phrase!).

[NecronLord]

I do believe that the 'ten to one' was in reference to Scarran soldiers. That is, boots on the ground. I imagined the gap in naval assets and economy were less, even if not significantly. After all, the Soviet military vastly outnumbered NATO's, yet in the end that didn't mean a damn, and wouldn't have meant too much in the event of Global Thermonuclear Conflict (God I love that phrase!).

You are quite correct.

It's also quite clear from Hot to Katratski through to the miniseries that the Peacekeepers have utterly no chance of victory without wormhole weapons. To the point of Graza's only means of trying to force the Scarrans to make peace being her claim of the Peacekeepers having developed wormhole weapons...

[Lazarus]

It occurs to me that a direct comparison of the two vessels in a simple stand-up fight is somewhat unfair given their differing roles. The Executor is a Dreadnaught, and while it has command, planetary assault, carrier roles etc, these are secondary functions. The CC on the other hand seems to be less of a main-line warship (though the CC's in The Peacekeeper Wars seem to behave as such in some instances), and has command and carrier roles as it's primary function. This would make sense given it's name...

I imagine the match to be somewhat similar to matching a single WW2 ere carrier against a single WW2 era battleship. In a stand-up fight, the battleship murders the carrier, but when you consider that this is in no way how the carrier is supposed to fight, and alter the scenario, you get a much clearer picture of their capabilities. In reality, the carrier would be escorted and a long way off from the battleship, allowing it's air complement to mercilessly pummel the opposition while the battleship cannot return a shot.

Of course, the Executor has the range in it's weapons to alleviate this problem - even if the Command Carriers primary weapons are it's complement of smaller vessels, fighters and it's escort ships, the SSD can STILL blow the shit out of them at range because SW level tech is quite simply BETTER than Farscape tech.

The Peacekeeper Wars interestingly show both kinds of engagement. The CC's use their fighters to cause heavy damage to Scarran vessels early in the series, and then seem to slug it out with Scarran warships in the climax. On another note, I don't recall it being shown what happened to the fleets of both sides, it may have been hinted that both fleets were lost into the wormhole, but I don't remember if that was actually shown. The Peacekeeper vessels were certainly ordered to withdraw, so whether any made it or not I'm not sure.

[NecronLord]

Well. They're both wildly inconsistant. It's just Star Wars' wildly inconsistant upper end is much higher.

Anyway, yes. Sadly, the Carrier doesn't have much of a chance.

And, it seems contradicted elsewhere, but it might interest someone to know that 'Farscape the Illustrated Companion' has an interview where production designer Ricky Eyres claims that the Command Carrier is intended to be 5,000 feet (1,524 meters) in length. Take as you will.

[starfury]

And, it seems contradicted elsewhere, but it might interest someone to know that 'Farscape the Illustrated Companion' has an interview where production designer Ricky Eyres claims that the Command Carrier is intended to be 5,000 feet (1,524 meters) in length. Take as you will.

So using this data, the command carrier is fairly close in size to the typical large mile long warship, aka ISD, Bab5 Omega-class and Warlock-class destoryer and the Battlestar Galatica, if this is correctly then the SSD Executor is way out of it's league, The command carrier will find the regular ISD to be far much to face.

[Balrog]

And, it seems contradicted elsewhere, but it might interest someone to know that 'Farscape the Illustrated Companion' has an interview where production designer Ricky Eyres claims that the Command Carrier is intended to be 5,000 feet (1,524 meters) in length. Take as you will.

So using this data, the command carrier is fairly close in size to the typical large mile long warship, aka ISD, Bab5 Omega-class and Warlock-class destoryer and the Battlestar Galatica, if this is correctly then the SSD Executor is way out of it's league, The command carrier will find the regular ISD to be far much to face.

Haven't measurements been done before that've shown the CC to be around 5 miles long though? I recall long ago someone put together a size comparison picture with a CC, an ISD, ect. and the Peacekeeper ship dwarfed the others.

[McC]

And, it seems contradicted elsewhere, but it might interest someone to know that 'Farscape the Illustrated Companion' has an interview where production designer Ricky Eyres claims that the Command Carrier is intended to be 5,000 feet (1,524 meters) in length. Take as you will.

So using this data, the command carrier is fairly close in size to the typical large mile long warship, aka ISD, Bab5 Omega-class and Warlock-class destoryer and the Battlestar Galatica, if this is correctly then the SSD Executor is way out of it's league, The command carrier will find the regular ISD to be far much to face.

There's this quote, but there's also the listing of Moya being 1.5 kilometers long, posted in the Science Fiction Museum Hall of Fame. Moya being significantly smaller than a CC (smaller even than the thickness of the 'ring' that acts like a wing to the CC), this pretty much throws Eyres' comment in the toilet. Ultimately, visual analysis is going to be the only settling element here.

[Lazarus]

A CC is not a mile long, unless the quote overrides on-screen evidence. As far as I'm aware Farscape canon rules aren't that weird, so the CC stands at somewhere around the 5 mile mark. Clearly this guy doesn't actually have any grasp of size whatsoever, 'a mile' is probably just another way for him to say REALLY FRICKIN BIG.

[NecronLord]

A CC is not a mile long, unless the quote overrides on-screen evidence. As far as I'm aware Farscape canon rules aren't that weird, so the CC stands at somewhere around the 5 mile mark. Clearly this guy doesn't actually have any grasp of size whatsoever, 'a mile' is probably just another way for him to say REALLY FRICKIN BIG.

Or he was reffering to the episode he was being asked about, the Pilot. Later episodes show them to be really big (though I've not once seen calcs, mind you), but that doesn't necesserily mean they were rendered at the same size in the pilot.

[McC]

Or he was reffering to the episode he was being asked about, the Pilot. Later episodes show them to be really big (though I've not once seen calcs, mind you), but that doesn't necesserily mean they were rendered at the same size in the pilot.

I suspect very, very strongly that the CC model used in season one and the CC model(s) used subsequently were different. The CC model from "Premiere" has significantly less surface detail than later models appear to.

That aside, though, proper scaling of objects in CG shots is notoriously shoddy. Moya might be 2000 kilometers long in CG world space, with the Command Carrier being 20 cm long in the same world space. They'll then be scaled as needed for the particular shot to "look good." Consistency tends to be fortunate happenstance, unless the CG team is actually paying close attention to keeping their ship sizes consistent.

Most don't.

As an aside, I'm actually very inclined to try doing some calcs in the near future. I'm moving this weekend, so my time budget is kind of tight right now (packing's a bitch), but after this weekend I might try taking a serious stab at it.

[NecronLord]

Actually, according to him, they supposedly tried very hard - and he admits to being unhappy with the result - to make the Carrier in the pilot look three times Moya's length, roughly 5000 feet.

[McC]

Actually, according to him, they supposedly tried very hard - and he admits to being unhappy with the result - to make the Carrier in the pilot look three times Moya's length, roughly 5000 feet.

This may well have been the intention. The command carrier does seem much smaller in "Premiere" than it does later. However, the amusing/annoying part of this is that the gigantic command carrier that we later see in season three (which is 12-13 or more times the size of Moya) is the same carrier as in season one (since the "Premiere" carrier belongs to Crais, which Scorpius takes from him at the end of season one, and then turns into his new gammak base in season three).

[Big Orange]

It could be mild continuity error, but I can see the Command Carrier remaining the same size throughout the first threes season, only that CGI detail was cranked up greatly so you could go right up to Crais' flagship, well within the ring superstructure with the inner point defense frag turrets and docking bays within the main hull. The first CGI model of the same warship made it appear smaller, due to the lower level of detail and having it mainly in long shots, so you could not really tell it's real size (in Season One the Carrier appeared to be comparable to a Imperial or Venator-class Star Destroyer in terms of size, but then seemed much more of city sized ship comparable to the Executor in late Season Three with the park built inside that hangar space and the Moya sized escorts being tiny in comparison).

However that ruined Command Carrier floating in that spaceship graveyard in a early Farscape episode appeared pretty big as well.