The TNG movies

[Bounty]

Well, they never showed us just what the original prototype warp engine looked like at all, so for all we know it was a clunky piece of junk he put together using what scraps of civilization he could find and was good for like one or two tests before breaking down.

Nevermind that such a "creation" would be more likely to blow up in its inventor's face better than 95% of the time.

I always believed he worked on the engine before the war in a proper lab with a proper staff and hid or stored the most critical parts when fighting broke out. Once the dust settled, he could gather the surviving members of his staff (explaining the bunker personnel) and assemble the ship from the stored parts, needing only a booster to get it out of the atmosphere and the titanium to turn the empty warhead into a makeshift cockpit.

It's not something they needed to explain for the storyline to work.

[Big Orange]

Generations was an almighty and vapid disappointment, with the brilliant plot elements getting blown in a spectacular fashion. I'm puzzled why some people deem Generations arguably the strongest TNG movie, even though it was far less than the sum of it's parts.

I enjoyed First Contact for what it was and it was relatively coherent, actually going out of its way to entertain. I liked the cranky, drunk Cochrane and the Borg Queen was the best villian out of TNG movie series' bland roster of bad guys. The Borg were overrated as TNG villains anyway and I thought the new Enterprise-E was used well.

Insurrection's grossly misdirected morality offended me at the time, with the TNG crew defending a few inward looking and selfish squaters for the sake of denying the rest of the civilized galaxy the right to near immortality. And everything looked cheap.

It may be an unpopular opinion but I found Nemesis relatively more entertaining than either Generations or Insurrection, but that is not really saying much - I kinda of liked the Troglite like Remans and Tom Hardy did a decent job with mediocre material (not unlike Malcolm McDowell). And it had Ron Pearlman in it.

[Patrick Degan]

Generations was an almighty and vapid disappointment, with the brilliant plot elements getting blown in a spectacular fashion. I'm puzzled why some people deem Generations arguably the strongest TNG movie, even though it was far less than the sum of it's parts.

Because the rest of them were utter shit. Worst Contact simply mixed-n-matched elements from the plot bin and trashed the entire TNG preaching about not polluting the timelines by having Picard's crew practically build Cochrane's warp prototype rocket for him while you had the Space Zombies lurching their way inside the Enterprise and Ilsa, Borg Leather Queen, mincing about. I kept wondering when she was going to pull out a whip. While Nemesis was the bastard love-child of Worst Contact and The Wrath Of Khan.

As for the abortion that was Insurrection, it has already been so completely trashed that little can be added on as significant comment.

[PREDATOR490]

Sadly I have grown up watching TNG and at that point I found it mildly entertaining most of the time but I always ended up sticking to specific episodes like BoBW that had a modicum of "starship porn" as you say.


Generations:

I liked Generations when I first saw it but I can agree that it didnt look right. The set looked darker than the series and generally there was a different atmosphere. I expect its because of the natural transition between movie and the series.
The story was bland and it manages to provide some geek satisfaction by introducing us to the E-B. The only actual Enterprise that wanst seen before this point and even throws in the TOS crew as a bonus.
Having Picard meeting Kirk was a bit lame though since they essentially brought him in to kill him for practically nothing compared to the feats Kirk achieved in his own time. A little bit more dramatic significance to his death would have helped rather than save X amount of million nobodies we will never meet or know.

The death of the E-D was certainly a surprise and fairly cool. I think Generations would have been an ideal situation to just end TNG all together rather than attempt to churn out more drivel in a bleak attempt to mimic TOS.


First Contact:

I will throw in with the lot and say this was a movie long time coming with the Borg. The start was awsome for starship porn and having been a fan of the Borg myself I was eagerly expecting this film to be a final showdown with the Borg having been hinted was coming with every encounter with the Borg.
Then we get past the 5 minute mark of a battle and spend the rest of the movie turning the Borg into a generic stupid villan while going through the age old Sci - Fi cliche of time travel rubbish.


Insurrection:

I despised this movie because it was completely boring. Even regular TOS battle scenes were more fun. The E-E is supposed to be the flagship of the Federation and a warship yet not only does it get creamed. The only actual time it uses its weapons ends in a two shot showdown at the end.
All the while we get the lame attempts at making Data a comedian, blabbing about morality and romance.


Nemesis:

Storywise this film was crap. No doubt there and the plot holes and errors were huge but frankly I liked this movie better than Insurrection and First Contact. This movie seemed to try and merge Wrath of Kahn and The Undiscovered Country. Failed horribly but at least you do get the starship candy remake of the TUC battle. Incidentally being the only time the Enterprise E has finally been shown to demonstrate a modicum of its flagship capability as a warship and the space battle scene was quite a different style than regular TNG. Almost like TUC with the set being trashed and attempts by the crew to look professional.

Other than that it was a waste of space.


Personnally, I would prefer that TNG had ended on Generations or First Contact at a push since but beyond that its total drivel.

[Skylon]

Generations

A mixed bag, but mostly for the bad. I don't mind Kirk dying to save a planet, even if it is a bunch of nobodies, but I mind him getting killed by a crappy bridge. UGH!

The Ent-D's destruction was just about as pointless; done mainly for a really cool effects scene.

But there were some nice moments. Personally, I saw a few posts of people pissed about Picard being all "action hero" in the later TNG movies. I think one of my favorite parts is the fact that when Picard first tries to take on Soren he gets the crap kicked out of him. Then when Kirk comes back Kirk's the one punching the shit outta Malcolm McDowell. A nice difference between the two Captains.

But getting back to the later films, I took Picard's change from being the "send my XO down to do the dirty work" to phaser-rifle totting, "Riker, watch the town drunk while I kick Borg-ass", as possibly a result of his meeting Kirk, and some of his mentality rubbing off on Picard.

First Contact - The most watchable. It was entertaining but not on par with the best TOS films. A nice battle early on, the Borg got a good update look-wise, I actually liked the deflector scene...my only complaints were that the plot depended on time-travel, and that this wasn't the last we saw of the Borg (they should have never shown them again after this considering the Queen fucking died, then all the drones around her died).

Insurrection - Ugh. Watched it twice (once in theatres, again when my dad rented it). Har har. Worf grows a zit. Oh, and Picard sings. Jesus, I liked Star Trek 5 more than this. And the sad thing is, the story had potential.

Nemesis - Aside from the fucking clone, I think this story had a shot too as a good look at Romulan society was long overdue. But dear God, the pitfalls from logic BURN. I never thought I would see an even-numbered Trek film I hated this much. Another I've only seen twice: once in theater, again a few years later, my significant other has the DVD and I thought "maybe it wasn't as bad as I thought": It was.

[Typhonis 1]

hmmm how about combine Generations with First Contact?

The Finale could have been Kirk warp ramming the Borg Queens ship before she goes back in time onboard the primary hull of the Enterprise D. Picard is forced to watch as Kirk sacrifices himself killing her before she can go back in time and kill Zephram Cochrane.

Thus you have Kirk saving the Alpha quadrant and destroy the Enterprise so the Enterprise E can be introduced.

Maybe have a Klingon fleet arrive to see the ramming with Kor, Kang or Koloth in charge. He hears about the death and laughs, stating he can`t wait to meet Kirk in Sto`vo`cor . Picard comments on how Kirk was human. He his rebuffed. Kirks body was human, his spirit was klingon.

[ShadowSonic]

Nah, "Generations" should've been "Yesterday's Enterprise" with the Ent-A coming out of the rift being flung into the future in a battle with the Romulans shortly after Khitomer, explaining that it was their sacrifice (specifically Kirk's) that truly solidified the Fed-Kling relations and them not being there caused a war between the Feds and Klingons. The Feds won but it did weaken them enough that the Romulans went to war with them immediately after, teaming with the remaining Klingons. The Quadrant then settled into a general war witht he Cardassian Wars happening decades earlier and by the TNG era the Cardies, Klingons, Romulans and Feds have all been fighting each other in an all out slugfest that's weakened them all so badly and killed/destroyed so much that even if the fighting stops it just starts again eventually (explaing why they all aren't dead by the 2370s).

The final fight would have Worf with 3 K'Vorts attacking, Tomalok with 2 Warbirds and Gul Macet with 1 Galor all attacking the Ent-D and each other, with the Ent-D taking out everyone except Worf who destroys the Ent-D with a kamikaze as the Ent-A goes back.

Then it would end with Guinan going to Picard and asking him about James Kirk.

[Uraniun235]

I've heard that at the earliest stages, they approached Generations with "Wouldn't the awesomest poster for a movie be the Enterprise-A and Enterprise-D locked in mortal combat? Let's make a movie about that!" and abandoned it when they couldn't figure out a way to make it really work.

Nah, "Generations" should've been "Yesterday's Enterprise" with the Ent-A coming out of the rift being flung into the future in a battle with the Romulans shortly after Khitomer, explaining that it was their sacrifice (specifically Kirk's) that truly solidified the Fed-Kling relations and them not being there caused a war between the Feds and Klingons. The Feds won but it did weaken them enough that the Romulans went to war with them immediately after, teaming with the remaining Klingons. The Quadrant then settled into a general war witht he Cardassian Wars happening decades earlier and by the TNG era the Cardies, Klingons, Romulans and Feds have all been fighting each other in an all out slugfest that's weakened them all so badly and killed/destroyed so much that even if the fighting stops it just starts again eventually (explaing why they all aren't dead by the 2370s).

The final fight would have Worf with 3 K'Vorts attacking, Tomalok with 2 Warbirds and Gul Macet with 1 Galor all attacking the Ent-D and each other, with the Ent-D taking out everyone except Worf who destroys the Ent-D with a kamikaze as the Ent-A goes back.

Then it would end with Guinan going to Picard and asking him about James Kirk.

[ShadowSonic]

What emoticon is that?

[PREDATOR490]

There is no way your going to get a situation for the E-A or B to brought in effectively along side the E-D that isnt contrived. Against the Borg... thats just suicide.
The E-D is supposed to be the literal flagship of the Federation yet it got got trashed along with 39 other ships without the Borg Cube breaking a sweat so no chance that Kirk's Enterprise will do much good.

As it happens there is a book written by Shatner called "The Return". Its supposed to deal with Kirk getting revived after Generations by the Borg who form an alliance with the Romulans to take over the galaxy kind of thing. The story wasnt that bad but Shatner's wanking over Kirk gets annoying at points. Alot of the details are off due to later movies and series but I could see it working better than First Contact for a proper Borg based situation, while also giving Kirk a more significant way to go out.

[ShadowSonic]

Well, hardly anyone complained that it was contrived for the ENT-C to appear out of the rift right where the ENT-D could find them because the story was so good. So if they did it for the ENT-A I doubt anyone would complain.

[Big Orange]

Because the rest of them were utter shit. Worst Contact simply mixed-n-matched elements from the plot bin and trashed the entire TNG preaching about not polluting the timelines by having Picard's crew practically build Cochrane's warp prototype rocket for him while you had the Space Zombies lurching their way inside the Enterprise and Ilsa, Borg Leather Queen, mincing about. I kept wondering when she was going to pull out a whip.

The Borg Queen was terribly camp, but she was generally better than some cranky scientist standing in front of a giant swirlywhirly thing in the sky with his toy rocket. I didn't get the impression our intrepid TNG built Cochrane's prototype from the ground up, merely repaired what was already built (since it was damaged in the initial Borg attack), also the interplay between the TNG crew and Cochrane was fairly funny.

First Contact is overrated and falls apart to certain degree if you put it under closer scrutiny, but it was certainly more watchable than Generations, a movie that started off with the right ingredients for a defining sci-fi movie and blowing it all in a spectacular way, leaving a giant blob of almighty "meh".

While Nemesis was the bastard love-child of Worst Contact and The Wrath Of Khan.

Sure Nemsis was imitating a vastly superior TOS movie and is pretty mediocre in it's own right, but does not immolate it's potential as badly as Generations did.

As for the abortion that was Insurrection, it has already been so completely trashed that little can be added on as significant comment.

Defending aloof squaters who are denying eternal life to everybody, by saving 600 farmers from deportion when they're getting in the way of the welfare of countless trillions is very morally repugnant from any angle, even if the So'na are gangsters and the immortality resource they are harvesting is likely finite.

[Sidewinder]

As it happens there is a book written by Shatner called "The Return". Its supposed to deal with Kirk getting revived after Generations by the Borg who form an alliance with the Romulans to take over the galaxy kind of thing. The story wasnt that bad but Shatner's wanking over Kirk gets annoying at points. Alot of the details are off due to later movies and series but I could see it working better than First Contact for a proper Borg based situation, while also giving Kirk a more significant way to go out.

I read 'The Return' and read the first chapter of its sequel, 'Avenger', before losing interest. There is NO way that wanking Kirk to the stratosphere is going to work as a movie, because... What will Spock, McCoy, and everyone else do? Play poker while Kirk "pokes" her?

[tim31]

I enjoyed Generations when I saw it in the theatre at age 13, although even back then it was obvious that it was a.) shitfully edited, and b.) some of the re-used motion control model shots looked dated or simply didn't translate into the picture format. But what still gets me about it is that RDM still couldn't get some balls and put his foot down about a better script that he is known to be capable of.

[Sam Or I]

What are you guys talking about? The Next Generation never made a movie. I refuse to believe they did. Star Trek ended after The Undiscovered Country.

[ShadowSonic]

Yep, there really was no demand for TNG movies like there was for TOS (since they were the first new Trek in 10 years when they started) since there was already enough Trek on TV at the time.

They should've waited a few years to make us miss the TNG crew enough before bringing them back for some new adventures. ANd the time gap between the TV finale and the movies would've been long enough that they could get away with off-screen promotions and re-assignments like in the TOS movies. As it was, making the movies so close to the end of the TV show in real-life and within the Trek Universe itself ended up maing them all big-screen TV episodes instead of actual movies.

[Uraniun235]

Yep, there really was no demand for TNG movies like there was for TOS (since they were the first new Trek in 10 years when they started) since there was already enough Trek on TV at the time.

They should've waited a few years to make us miss the TNG crew enough before bringing them back for some new adventures. ANd the time gap between the TV finale and the movies would've been long enough that they could get away with off-screen promotions and re-assignments like in the TOS movies. As it was, making the movies so close to the end of the TV show in real-life and within the Trek Universe itself ended up maing them all big-screen TV episodes instead of actual movies.

Waiting a few years incurs a very real risk of not being able to gather the original cast back together. Yeah, sure, I guess if Gates McFadden's busy they can re-cast or omit Crusher altogether, but it's just not gonna fly without Stewart and Spiner (and perhaps others).

[Skylon]

Waiting a few years incurs a very real risk of not being able to gather the original cast back together. Yeah, sure, I guess if Gates McFadden's busy they can re-cast or omit Crusher altogether, but it's just not gonna fly without Stewart and Spiner (and perhaps others).

Yeah, but I've read a few interviews where the cast noted that Generations was filmed right after "All Good Things", and the cast felt pretty drained and that everyone, cast and crew just didn't do their best because of that.

First Contact, after two years off, the cast was a bit more pepped to doing Trek again.

The scripts of the next two I think had everyone leery.

[Uraniun235]

Generations was first and foremost a writing failure. Moore and Braga like to say that Generations suffered because they were basically writing that and All Good Things at the same time, so I don't doubt at all that they should have at least put off making the movie until after they'd finished the damn series finale. At the same time, that sounds like such a bullshit cop-out to me; how could anybody (especially a supposed TOS fan like Moore) think that getting shot in the back is a good way for Kirk to get killed off? I have to admit I'm grateful that someone in Paramount was willing to put up the $5 million to re-do the ending into something at least slightly less lame.

There are also some production problems that probably arose from the weird-ass schedule, like the abysmal uniform situation (Riker's uniform doesn't even fucking fit him) and the much-lamented lameass space battle.

Five years is too risky from a production standpoint, though.

[Uraniun235]

Which leads me to pose an interesting question: What kind of damage would have been done to the franchise if they had kept the original ending in Generations, where Kirk is shot in the back and dies?

[Darth Wong]

Generations was an almighty and vapid disappointment, with the brilliant plot elements getting blown in a spectacular fashion. I'm puzzled why some people deem Generations arguably the strongest TNG movie, even though it was far less than the sum of it's parts.

Because the rest of them were utter shit. Worst Contact simply mixed-n-matched elements from the plot bin and trashed the entire TNG preaching about not polluting the timelines by having Picard's crew practically build Cochrane's warp prototype rocket for him while you had the Space Zombies lurching their way inside the Enterprise and Ilsa, Borg Leather Queen, mincing about. I kept wondering when she was going to pull out a whip. While Nemesis was the bastard love-child of Worst Contact and The Wrath Of Khan.

As for the abortion that was Insurrection, it has already been so completely trashed that little can be added on as significant comment.

First Contact was not a good Star Trek movie because of the way it shit all over logic and continuity, but if you didn't know or care about the franchise history and just viewed it as a vampire movie in space (which is basically what it was), it was an entertaining romp, which is more than you can say for the other TNG movies.

[Havok]

Generations was an almighty and vapid disappointment, with the brilliant plot elements getting blown in a spectacular fashion. I'm puzzled why some people deem Generations arguably the strongest TNG movie, even though it was far less than the sum of it's parts.

Because the rest of them were utter shit. Worst Contact simply mixed-n-matched elements from the plot bin and trashed the entire TNG preaching about not polluting the timelines by having Picard's crew practically build Cochrane's warp prototype rocket for him while you had the Space Zombies lurching their way inside the Enterprise and Ilsa, Borg Leather Queen, mincing about. I kept wondering when she was going to pull out a whip. While Nemesis was the bastard love-child of Worst Contact and The Wrath Of Khan.

As for the abortion that was Insurrection, it has already been so completely trashed that little can be added on as significant comment.

First Contact was not a good Star Trek movie because of the way it shit all over logic and continuity, but if you didn't know or care about the franchise history and just viewed it as a vampire movie in space (which is basically what it was), it was an entertaining romp, which is more than you can say for the other TNG movies.

The logic part I remember, , but what continuity did it shit on? I don't have it on DVD so I can't get a refresh.

[Skylon]

The logic part I remember, , but what continuity did it shit on? I don't have it on DVD so I can't get a refresh.

Mostly it's portrayal of Zeferam Cochrane as a drunken buffoon versus how he was portrayed in TOS.

[Darth Wong]

The logic part I remember, , but what continuity did it shit on? I don't have it on DVD so I can't get a refresh.

Mostly it's portrayal of Zeferam Cochrane as a drunken buffoon versus how he was portrayed in TOS.

Not to mention totally rewriting the Borg concept, from "emotionless cyborg tech scavengers with a completely decentralized command structure" to "space vampires complete with a Queen; kill her and they all die". Hell, Q himself said that the Borg had no interest at all in humans, just their technology. But in STFC, it turns out that they couldn't care less about our technology; instead, they want to get into our bloooooood!!!!!!

[Havok]

The logic part I remember, , but what continuity did it shit on? I don't have it on DVD so I can't get a refresh.

Mostly it's portrayal of Zeferam Cochrane as a drunken buffoon versus how he was portrayed in TOS.

Not to mention totally rewriting the Borg concept, from "emotionless cyborg tech scavengers with a completely decentralized command structure" to "space vampires complete with a Queen; kill her and they all die". Hell, Q himself said that the Borg had no interest at all in humans, just their technology. But in STFC, it turns out that they couldn't care less about our technology; instead, they want to get into our bloooooood!!!!!!

Fucking jeebus. I do need to watch that again. Or. Maybe I shouldn't.