Well? How is it?

Artanis · Post by **Artanis** » 2003-01-12 12:10pm

Oh great, by the time I get around to posting on it, the thread praising the rebuttal is five pages long

. Hope it's not too late to throw you another "great job", MoO

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-01-12 12:41pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:No don't, use his stupidity against himself, be the most cordial person there ever was while DarkStar is fanning the fire under his own feet.
Thats what the public wants to see, if you're the nice guy, they'd bemore inclinde to go with you and others cannot whine about how SD net people flame the poor trekkies, like DarkStar.

Interesting ... as an SD.net flamewarrior, this is most difficult ... but yes ... let MoO annihilate him cordially.

Though I wonder if MoO should bother ... Darkstar will clearly just drone on and on and on ala argument from exhaustion.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-01-12 01:01pm

Haven't had time to go through all of Scooter's reply yet, but here's a quickie smackdown:Note, I'll be usiing the properly accepted forms of evidence, endorsed repeatedly by Lucasfilm, which includes EU material to rebut RSA's bullshit.

The Battle of Britain
Re: "Cloaking Technology"

After all, every form of cloaking technology that we've seen, be it a part of those tiny Suliban cell ships from Enterprise, the Romulan cloaking device ("The Enterprise Incident"[TOS]), Klingon cloaking devices ("The Emperor's New Cloak"[DS9]), and even the Federation phase cloak ("Pegasus"[TNG]) were all man-sized affairs at the largest . . . . that could certainly suggest that there's something horribly wrong with Imperial cloaking technology if they can't figure out how to make some sort of cloaking device of a similar size.)

Darth Maul's Sith Infiltrator had a cloaking device. (See TPM:ICS). In "The Last Command" GA Thrawn utilized cloaking shields on 40m asteroids. Because Captain Needa was unaware of the top secret limitations of cloaking tech, doesn't mean a damed thing. Spock knew nothing of the Genesis Device, and he was a captain.

The Rebel fleet couldn't detect the 27 Imperial ships (including the humongous
Executor) hiding on the far side of Endor in Return of the Jedi. In Star Trek
II, the sensors tracked the Reliant on the opposite side of Regula.

As usual, RSA can't get a damned thing correct. In ST2:TWOK, the scene he refers to is a TACTICAL extrapolation of the battle's current status. This can easily be discovered if one were actually watching the movie rather thasn masterbating to it, since Kirk calls for "Tactical" and we then see the screen RS-idiot is talking about. One would also note that Khan couldn't detect the Enterprise from the other side of Regula either. He was surprised when he went to destroy the Enterprise: "Where is she?" Also, When the Enterprise GOT to Regula, they weren't able to discern the location of the Reliant. Spock said Regula was essentially a rock in space. To which Kirk replies, "And Reliant could be hiding behind that rock."

In The Empire Strikes Back, the Millennium Falcon latched on to the hull of the
Star Destroyer Avenger, and remained there for some time (perhaps as long as it
took to travel to another system, depending on one's view of the whole Hoth vs.
Anoat thing). Before she detached and drifted away from the Avenger's hull
undetected while masked only by garbage, she was plainly visible to other Star
Destroyers of the group, which had clear line-of-sight at ranges of just a few
kilometers.

This one is laughable. Rs-dipshit then post a picture of the Falcon's cockpit pointed at a Star Destroyer's BELLY! What a goddamned moron.

Meanwhile, the Enterprise NX-01, having just been blown to hell by a mine, still
managed to detect the hull contact of a cloaked mine in "Minefield"[ENT].

Hmm....detected something they were already looking for, and knew that it affixed itself to ships to damage them. WOW, what a parallel scene to the Falcon affixing itself to the Avenger in a maneuver that was completely unexpected, while the crew decided it went to hyperspace. I suppose taking a shit and giving birth are remarkably similar instances to this asshole too. But then again, if all he has are himself and possible siblings as his referent, then this is a justifiable mistake on RSA's part.

In The Empire Strikes Back, the Falcon's drive emissions as she came to a
screeching halt were not detected by the Avenger.

Because the engines were shut off, you stupid fuck. The emissions "ended"- just as they would if- SURPRISE! the Falcon went to hyperspace! What a goddamned moron.

In First Contact, the Enterprise-E was counting stray hydrogen atoms in space near the Neutral Zone. The displacement of such atoms was used as a tracking method in "The
Battle"[TNG].

Note that this is in no way, shape, or form resembles the above scene for the Falcon. Nor does the rest of his whiny diatribe. If he's attempting to say that SW sensors can't detect engine emissions, he'd be hard pressed to prove it.

Wraith Squadron

pg. 8: "And I'm still not picking up any engine emissions, other than his or ours, on the scanners."

X-wing scanning engine emissions

In A New Hope, Imperial sensors failed to detect two droids in an escape pod
that launched from a ship the Star Destroyer had 'swallowed'.

WTF do droids have to do with engine emissions? RSA is so rattled by Master of Ossus' complete destruction of his website that he can't even keep on topic in his own rebuttal!

In Star Trek: Nemesis, the Enterprise-E detected electromagnetic signatures of an android from outside a star system.

Again, RSA can't seem to get anything right. In Nemesis, the E-E detects a POSITRONIC SIGNATURE from a Soong-type android. Data even confirms that this type of signature is unique to his own construction. Note that this was an obviously laid trap by Shinzom that RSA hasn't bothered to deal with. In "The Most Toys" Data's positronic signature wasn't detected even though they were in close proximity to the ship
he was a prisoner on.

Return of the Jedi, Chapter 9: "They went into a high-speed power-dive, perpendicular to the long axis of the Imperial vessel; vertical drops were hard to track." Never has such a profound weakness been demonstrated with Federation starship sensors.

VGR "Dragon's Teeth" TUVOK: "The ships are highly maneuverable; it is difficult to maintain a phaser lock"

In The Empire Strikes Back, the Falcon was surprised by two additional Star
Destroyers that were already well within visual range

Does this little fuckup ever get anything right? Never mind that Vader'd Death Squadron was already in system around Hoth, but how was Solo "surprised?"

SOLO: "I saw 'em! I saw 'em!"

LEIA: "Saw what?"

"Star Destroyers! Two of 'em, coming right at us!"

(a similar, but less horrible example occurs in ANH, when Han is surprised to find two Star Destroyers in orbit).

Again, donkey fucker tries to put his idiotic fucking spin on the scene. How does Solo being surprised thatr a Star Destroyer was in orbit reflect in any way on sensors?

SOLO: "Looks like an Imperial Cruiser; our passengers must be hotter than I thought"

[snip redundancies]

Probe Examples
In The Empire Strikes Back, we see that the Imperial technique for searching
planets with probes involves crashing them into the planet, letting them skulk
about the surface with sensors that can't detect a Wookiee behind a mound of
snow a couple of dozen meters away.

In Star Trek we see that the Federation technique for searching planets is to send starships on 5 year missions and mapping less than 20% of the Milky Way galaxy, while the Imperials can do this with probes across their GALAXY period.

Smaller Equipment Examples
In all of Star Trek, small handheld devices are used for scanning, and these are shown as being extraordinarily capable of detecting all manner of particles, energies, and whatnot. In Star Wars, such scanning capabilities are usually housed in droids (witness Han's need of R2's scanners during the search for Leia in Endor's woods). Large, bulky handheld scanning devices have been seen, however . . . though they apparently had difficulty locating a warm-blooded
human on the frozen plains of Hoth. Han and a ridiculously bulky SW scanning device

And note that tricorders are fouled by lightning storms that prevent them from scanning anything past a few meters. TNG's "The Enemy"

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-01-12 01:15pm

Lord Poe wrote:
As usual, RSA can't get a damned thing correct. In ST2:TWOK, the scene he refers to is a TACTICAL extrapolation of the battle's current status. This can easily be discovered if one were actually watching the movie rather thasn masterbating to it, since Kirk calls for "Tactical" and we then see the screen RS-idiot is talking about. One would also note that Khan couldn't detect the Enterprise from the other side of Regula either. He was surprised when he went to destroy the Enterprise: "Where is she?" Also, When the Enterprise GOT to Regula, they weren't able to discern the location of the Reliant. Spock said Regula was essentially a rock in space. To which Kirk replies, "And Reliant could be hiding behind that rock."

Just some comments.

Spock did say that "the scanners and sensors are still inoperative." That's why they couldn't detect the Reliant behind the rock. The tactical display scene later clearly shows the the Enterprise with her sensors functioning could detect the reliant on the other side of Regula.

However, Darkstars didn't take into consideration that the Imperials were jamming the rebels, that's why they couldn't detect the Imperial Fleet. Not to mention that Endor is much larger in size than Regula.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-01-12 01:19pm

Lord Poe wrote:
VGR "Dragon's Teeth" TUVOK: "The ships are highly maneuverable; it is difficult to maintain a phaser lock"

Opps hit send to soon.....

IIRC Voyager still managed 60% accuracy.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-12 01:24pm

I don't really see why I should have to rebut this ridiculous series of red-herrings, distortions, and misdirections that Mr. Anderson is using to forge his "rebuttal," but let's see what we can do.

In his latest "rebuttal" to my 1.02 Gigawatt page, Mr. Anderson states that:

Now, although I do agree with the assessment that Wong is a seasoned liar, at no point do I suggest that on the page in question. Further, his delusions of grandeur aside, my page is not based around an attack on his silly page. If my intent had been to tear down that page, there was plenty more for me to work with than just that.

[italics mine]

Now, I took the liberty of going back to what Anderson originally wrote for his 1.02 GW Fallacy page. Here's what I found:

And when something is amiss, who else but the opposition stands ready to leap into the fray and demand that the silliest possible solution most harmful to the other side is the correct one. And that's just what some Warsies did.

. . . and that's just what one Rabid Warsie continues to do to this very day. Mike Wong, on one of his newest pages (as of 12-03-02) which purports to settle the ST vs. SW issue in five minutes, assigns the entire Enterprise-D a phaser power of 3.6 gigawatts across all possible emitters.

Anderson then goes on to state:

Ossus and company repeat the same error, operating under the presumption that the whole page is an attack, and one that is "completely unfounded". In reality, the brief comment I do make is quite well founded. (Entertainingly, I must now explain why it is well-founded . . . thus basing an entire page on pointing out what's wrong with his, and thereby fueling his paranoia regarding the original two-sentence comment, as if via some offshoot of the "self-fulfilling prophecy".)

The ENTIRE REST OF HIS PAGE on this matter is one gigantic red-herring. The fact of the matter is that Mike declared the use of the TM to be "the Lazy Man's approach," pointed out during the page in question that it was a less accurate method of measuring things because the on-screen evidence disagreed with it, AND provided an explanation for why it was included in this particular debate (ie. Because the TM is the ONLY thing that has ever quantified anything in ST in a real, usable, scientific sense).

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-01-12 01:24pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Lord Poe wrote:
As usual, RSA can't get a damned thing correct. In ST2:TWOK, the scene he refers to is a TACTICAL extrapolation of the battle's current status. This can easily be discovered if one were actually watching the movie rather thasn masterbating to it, since Kirk calls for "Tactical" and we then see the screen RS-idiot is talking about. One would also note that Khan couldn't detect the Enterprise from the other side of Regula either. He was surprised when he went to destroy the Enterprise: "Where is she?" Also, When the Enterprise GOT to Regula, they weren't able to discern the location of the Reliant. Spock said Regula was essentially a rock in space. To which Kirk replies, "And Reliant could be hiding behind that rock."

Just some comments.

Spock did say that "the scanners and sensors are still inoperative." That's why they couldn't detect the Reliant behind the rock. The tactical display scene later clearly shows the the Enterprise with her sensors functioning could detect the reliant on the other side of Regula.

However, Darkstars didn't take into consideration that the Imperials were jamming the rebels, that's why they couldn't detect the Imperial Fleet. Not to mention that Endor is much larger in size than Regula.

However, Kahn and the Reliant could not detect the Enterprise when they were rounding Regula. It is only when they clear the horizon and Enterprise becomes visible that Kahn says: "There she is!"

So tactical must be an extrapolation as Lord Poe says not just sensor data.

Unless the Enterprise's sensors are more powerful than Relaint's but there is no basis for that.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-12 01:25pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Lord Poe wrote:
VGR "Dragon's Teeth" TUVOK: "The ships are highly maneuverable; it is difficult to maintain a phaser lock"

Opps hit send to soon.....

IIRC Voyager still managed 60% accuracy.

But their rate of fire was dramatically reduced, as compared from other engagements. The ship was just waiting for a better, more accurate, lock. That took significant amounts of time.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-01-12 01:40pm

Stravo wrote:
However, Kahn and the Reliant could not detect the Enterprise when they were rounding Regula. It is only when they clear the horizon and Enterprise becomes visible that Kahn says: "There she is!"

So tactical must be an extrapolation as Lord Poe says not just sensor data.

Unless the Enterprise's sensors are more powerful than Relaint's but there is no basis for that.

When Khan says "There she is" I always thought he was just excited to see the Enterprise on visual.

As for Khans comment of "Where is she" I think he wasn't going off sensor data at the moment, he just expected the Enterprise to be dead in the water and was surprised when she wasn't there.

He did come around to the other side of the planet....chasing them.

I dunno I don't want to be quick to conclude that the Enterprise could not detect the Reliant or vise versa on the other side of Regula, when it seems as though they could, using tactical.....

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-12 01:47pm

Robert Scott Anderson wrote:
Mike Wong wrote:Editor's note: this page on RSA's site claims that since ST cloaking devices are smaller than SW cloaking devices, they must be superior for that reason alone]
Untrue . . . though the fact that he said that isn't surprising, really. On my page, I first give Captain Needa's quote regarding the 35 meter long Millennium Falcon. I then make the comment: "That would seem to be yet another SW technological limitation", promptly showing the decloaking of a 24 meter long Romulan runabout (which, incidentally, has even less volume than the length would suggest, due to the shape).

Now, I ask everyone involved to look at Mr. Anderson's original claims and tell me he's not saying what Mike attributes him with saying. He's saying that the SW universe has technological limitations in installing a cloaking device on a ship that is 35 meters long, and that the restrictions on ST technology are much more lax by showing the smaller Romulan shuttle decloaking.

After a few other examples, I say "Pictures speak a thousand words." Wong, evidently, feels no qualms about promptly putting the above words in my mouth. The funniest part is the nature of his presumption that I've declared them superior in all respects. . . I made no comments about performance, since we've never seen a Star Wars ship cloak. Wong thus committed a logical fallacy in his own mind, and promptly blamed me for it !!

Okay, so what? In order to compare the two technologies in such a manner, Anderson MUST first presuppose parity of function or it is a logical fallacy (the false analogy fallacy). I honestly do not see what he's talking about here. Anderson DID commit a logical fallacy.

I did not say anything which was a false analogy . . . that is what Wong inferred in his own illogical little mind.

Then what was the purpose of your page, Mr. Anderson? If it had nothing to do with a comparison of anything, then what was your intent in putting it up?

I leave others to rebut Anderson's assertions of Star Wars sensors sucking. It seems that Wayne Poe has beaten me to that area. What's more interesting is the way in which he attempts to rebut my statements about how ST cloaking devices have been foiled.

And, by Star Trek: Nemesis, the cloaking tech of the Romulan Empire was utterly untrackable by any means, including tachyons and antiprotons (which had both, within the decade prior, been successfully used to locate cloaked Romulan ships previously). Of course, Wong continues to argue the BS position that the exhaust trail weakness of Chang's cloak a century prior would have worked against the Scimitar, as well.

Prove that the E-E's sensors were as developed as the SW sensors. Moreover, the cloak was DEMONSTRABLY not perfect. Troi was able to detect the ship using her empathic abilities--and she is not even a telepath. As I demonstrated, SW sensors could EASILY have detected the ship through such means.

Sulu even spotted a cloaked starship with unaided eyes, though it is clear that when properly cloaked a ship is invisible to the naked eye (Star Trek IV).
Unaided eyes? He was looking through the viewscreen! That thing in the front of the bridge isn't a big window . . . well, unless something bad happens. Now, unless more data than just optical sensors is processed into that image on the viewscreen, then yes, Sulu spotted it quite easily. But, since the ship was perfectly cloaked in Star Trek IV (to the point that Gillian literally bumped into the ship), why even bring it up?

Okay, let me get this straight, the bridge viewscreen is through a camera, and therefore Sulu was able to detect the ship using only a camera. This helps him how? Moreover, in ST: IV, the ship was NOT operating in combat conditions while it was cloaked. It is an irrelevent red-herring to claim that the difficulty in seeing the vessel while it is not doing anything is the same as the difficulty of spotting the ship when it is in combat conditions. A submarine parked silently just over the sea-floor under 300 meters of water is virtually impossible to detect, but if that submarine is using sensor pings or even just running its engines and loading its torpedo tubes, the difficulty in detecting it goes way down.

"When the Bough Breaks" [TNG], in which the Enterprise was incapable of detecting an entire planet. The planetary cloak only functioned by warping light, and had no effect on any other type of energy or matter.
The above claim is best described as "pseudo-honest". The legendary, nearly-mythical planet Aldea was hidden by what is described in the episode as a sophisticated, complicated electromagnetic light-refracting device of extraordinary power which bent light around the planet's contour. In addition, the planet was protected by shields which the Aldeans could beam through (and through the Enterprise's shields simultaneously), but which the Enterprise could not have penetrated.

The Enterprise was incapable of directly detecting the cloaked world. Given our knowledge of the numerous sensor systems of the Enterprise and what they can sense (EM, subspace, gravitational distortions, temporal distortions, et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum), is the most logical conclusion that they couldn't find a planet that ought to have been easy for them to detect, or that they couldn't find the planet because it was not detectable by even Federation sensors? Obviously, the answer is the latter.

Draw your own conclusion. Also note how Anderson dismisses Mike's note a little ways down the page.

[Editor's note: you may also wish to note that Obi-Wan Kenobi could identify the "gravity silhouette" of Kamino from thousands of light years away, thus confirming that it still exists, yet no one in ST could pick up an entire planet, despite the fact that it is an object of legend and speculation and people already have an idea where it should be (in other words, Trek sensors are overrated).
The Kaminoan star system had been deleted from the Jedi archives, but its gravitational effects were evident by how it had affected other star systems in the area. That is not direct sensor contact of gravitational effects from light-years away . . . that's a stupid mistake by Dooku (or whoever deleted the record). Further, Wong is comparing locating a star system with locating "an entire planet". Are we supposed to assume that Aldea was larger or more massive than one's average star system now? What an incredibly silly argument.

His rejection of my canonical evidence of telepathic abilities are so fallacious and so lengthy that I tire of this charade. If his "counter-offensive" actually fools anybody, then they are frankly too far gone to care what I say. I leave the reader to be the final arbiter of who is right or wrong in this matter.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-01-12 01:57pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Lord Poe wrote:
VGR "Dragon's Teeth" TUVOK: "The ships are highly maneuverable; it is difficult to maintain a phaser lock"

Opps hit send to soon.....

IIRC Voyager still managed 60% accuracy.
But their rate of fire was dramatically reduced, as compared from other engagements. The ship was just waiting for a better, more accurate, lock. That took significant amounts of time.

Your right. As for Darkstars claim, he is completely wrong Dragons Teeth demonstrates this.

This reply of mine to Wayne was probably best left unsaid because it did nothing for the discussion.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-12 02:08pm

Here's another good one.

This page has got to be one of the most amusing ones, simply because he opens it up by pointing out what a complete idiot he is.

Part of the difficulty with this page is its apparent shift on the subject matter. Is it intended to ask the question of whether or not a Jedi wielding a lightsaber would stand any chance against a phaser, or simply how powerful a lightsaber is when compared to a phaser?
Duh. I comment on lightsabre deflection of bolts, point out that I'm not going to address whether or not a lightsabre could deflect a normal phaser beam (how the hell should we know?), and then show that a phaser can put out a wider beam than the lightsabre's blade. What kind of idiot would assume I'm comparing the power of the two weapons, as opposed to showing that a properly wide phaser beam could not possibly be deflected? Ossus . . . and Wong, too, but even moreso

Not the point, Mr. Anderson. The point is clearly that you fail to address the basic premise of this page. Are you talking about how effective a JEDI wielding a lightsaber would be, compared with a SF officer using a phaser, or are you talking about how effective someone like ME would be with a lightsaber against a SF officer with a phaser? By "power" I meant "effectiveness." I figured that anyone who could run a website would be intelligent enough to figure that out. Whatever.

When I explain that the "phaser burst" setting that Sulu used demonstrates conclusively that phaser sweeps were impractical, it struck me as being completely and totally logical. Why would such a mode of weapons fire be available if a phaser sweep was practical? It is both less accurate and, as Anderson points out, "less intense" than a phaser sweep. There is absolutely no reason to use such a setting with a practical and available phaser sweep.

Moreover, Anderson clearly violates the principle of parsimony.

However, given that there is no suggestion that it cannot be done, and that we've seen it done by phaser-type weapons before and since, I find the suggestion that it is impractical or impossible rather peculiar.

This is just silly. Did it not occur to him that perhaps the Defiant's pulse phaser weapons simply have greater firepower, period?

Irrelevent. It demonstrates conclusively that the impact of a phaser is more damaging than the time spent with a continuous beam. Thus, it shows a practical reason why the burt fire setting of a phaser would be so completely ridiculous and optional on phasers. If the impact of a phaser is less powerful than the beam itself, why do the Defiant's weapons fire in pulses instead of beams?

Fails to mention a crucial detail? Where the hell do they get this stuff? Even if we grant the conclusion Ossus leaps to (that there is no such thing as a wide-angle kill setting), that's hardly a crucial detail.

1. Set phaser for widebeam.
2. Point in general direction of badguy.
3. Press trigger.
4. Sith falls down.

Any questions?

Had he paid any attention, he should have noticed that I discussed that chain of events at length. Moreover, it IS a crucial detail that the phaser cannot be set to kill settings while in a "wide beam" mode.

Anderson again ignores parsimony with this statement:

The only energy absorption we've seen in Star Wars is when Yoda absorbed Dooku's "Force lightning" in Attack of the Clones. However, suggesting that they can absorb any energy because they can absorb Force energy is absurd . . .

Okay, why is it absurd? Energy is energy is energy. The nature of the energy differs, but Anderson must demonstrate that the energy used in the lightning attack was substantially different from blaster fire in order to make this assumption of his work.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-01-12 02:58pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Lord Poe wrote:
VGR "Dragon's Teeth" TUVOK: "The ships are highly maneuverable; it is difficult to maintain a phaser lock"

Opps hit send to soon.....

IIRC Voyager still managed 60% accuracy.

KS, would you PLEASE save this so I won't have to refute it every goddamned time? My evidence above is from the beginning of the episode. You countered (like every Trekkie that sees this claim) with something that happened toward the end of the epidode. The first claim happens in space. The second (yours) happens on a planet, where we can CLEARLY SEE the ships are NOT maneuvering.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-12 03:01pm

Darkstar's rebuttals never change. Nitpick, nitpick, nitpick, until nobody wants to bother reading his tripe any more. I wonder if he tried to concoct a defense for his laughable 35mm fixed focal-length argument, or his "gigawatts per unit time is the same thing as kilowatt-hours" argument: the two funniest mistakes on his website.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-12 03:12pm

Robert Scott Anderson wrote:The above claim is best described as "pseudo-honest". The legendary, nearly-mythical planet Aldea was hidden by what is described in the episode as a sophisticated, complicated electromagnetic light-refracting device of extraordinary power which bent light around the planet's contour. In addition, the planet was protected by shields which the Aldeans could beam through (and through the Enterprise's shields simultaneously), but which the Enterprise could not have penetrated.

I love this; the fact that the Enterprise was sitting right in front of it and couldn't pick it up at all despite its gravity is excused by ... what?

The Enterprise was incapable of directly detecting the cloaked world. Given our knowledge of the numerous sensor systems of the Enterprise and what they can sense (EM, subspace, gravitational distortions, temporal distortions, et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum), is the most logical conclusion that they couldn't find a planet that ought to have been easy for them to detect, or that they couldn't find the planet because it was not detectable by even Federation sensors? Obviously, the answer is the latter.

I have never seen a more wondrous example of circular logic: "given that we know Fed sensors can pick up pretty much anything, you can't use an observed example of their weakness to show that they can't".

The Kaminoan star system had been deleted from the Jedi archives, but its gravitational effects were evident by how it had affected other star systems in the area. That is not direct sensor contact of gravitational effects from light-years away . . . that's a stupid mistake by Dooku (or whoever deleted the record).

I love it when he demonstrates his scientific ignorance. How does he think most sensors work? What is "direct" sensor contact? Virtually all sensors work by examining the interaction of an object with its environment. Some of them use an active ping to generate more readily detected interactions. But make no mistake: virtually all sensor systems function by detecting the interaction of an object with its environment; the notion of a "direct" sensor contact as opposed to indirect observation of its interaction with its environment comes only from pure, unadulterated scientific ignorance.

Further, Wong is comparing locating a star system with locating "an entire planet". Are we supposed to assume that Aldea was larger or more massive than one's average star system now? What an incredibly silly argument.

So it's harder to detect a planet when you're sitting right in front of it, as opposed to a star system from thousands of light years away? We can detect planets around stars from thousands of light years away TODAY, by monitoring the gravitational oscillations that they cause in their parent stars. The fact that the E-D couldn't do this means that their sensor capabilities are inferior to 20th century USA.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-12 03:18pm

Darth Wong wrote:I love this; the fact that the Enterprise was sitting right in front of it and couldn't pick it up at all despite its gravity is excused by ... what?

Nothing, but it's viciously attacked with this:

Pg. 159: "Sensors, no anomalous system readings?"

"No admiral, all is within normal limits.Fine gravitational fluctuation readings do not indicate any increased mass hiding around moons or asteroid belts.If the Yuuzhan Vong are hiding ships there, they must be very tiny."

(ref: Dark Tide II - Ruin)

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-01-12 03:24pm

Kamikazie Sith wrote:However, Darkstars didn't take into consideration that the Imperials were jamming the rebels, that's why they couldn't detect the Imperial Fleet. Not to mention that Endor is much larger in size than Regula.

They were being jammed, genius.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-12 03:26pm

I just realized that I should have mentioned the fact that Obi actually picked up the exact location of Kamino from thousands of light years away, not just the whole star system. He came out of hyperspace right in front of the planet, which means he knew where it was.

Not surprising, since you can use stellar oscillation to determine the location of planets in orbit using modern technology, but it's just another thing the Feddies obviously can't do.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-01-12 03:33pm

Darth Wong wrote:I just realized that I should have mentioned the fact that Obi actually picked up the exact location of Kamino from thousands of light years away, not just the whole star system. He came out of hyperspace right in front of the planet, which means he knew where it was.

Not surprising, since you can use stellar oscillation to determine the location of planets in orbit using modern technology, but it's just another thing the Feddies obviously can't do.

I'm still amazed that he needed to be told that gravitational waves don't just pop out of nowhere.

OBI-WAN: Gravity is pulling all the stars toward this spot, but there's nothing there.
YODA: You're a dumbass. <smack!>

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-12 03:33pm

If MoO wants to address some of Darkstar's bullshit, he can feel free to send me edits, corrections, additions, etc. Personally, I think RSA's complete lack of a social life is why we shouldn't try to engage him with tit-for-tat site updates. Anyone with a brain should be able to see through his bullshit, and the penalty to our social lives is not worth it.

Since he has no social life, he has the advantage in terms of time and dedication to this subject. While we would spend weeks, on and off, finding the time away from family and friends and other activities to compose replies, he has nothing better to do. He lives and breathes his pathetic website, and will instantly rush to his keyboard to rattle off grotesquely long-winded, inane replies to anything we do in a matter of days at most. The cost/benefit ratio just doesn't work out for us, while it does for him.

That's why it's better just to occasionally point out what an idiot he is, and not worry that anyone will take his bullshit seriously. We're talking about a pinhead who thinks that gravity is not correlated to mass, for fuck's sake (see his moronic comments on micro-singularities in our debate). Are there people out there who will buy it? Sure, but there are people who buy wholeheartedly into young-Earth creationism, too. No one with a modicum of intelligence will buy it, and that's the group we're interested in.

The Teacher · Post by **The Teacher** » 2003-01-12 03:35pm

Actually, Trekkie sensos are far more advanced in comparison to Warsie sensors.

Ex) A Federation Standard has sensors capable of picking out INDIVIDUAL life forms. Warsie sensors can tell you if life is there.

Ex2) Federation sensors were able to locate a positronic signal parscs away, and pinpont them withing 10 meters. Warsie sensors could tell you that SOMEthing was there, and possibly analyze it.

But, in my opinion, it is the Warsie EVERYTHING that is superior, if only for my own personal ego.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-12 03:35pm

Durandal wrote:I'm still amazed that he needed to be told that gravitational waves don't just pop out of nowhere.

OBI-WAN: Gravity is pulling all the stars toward this spot, but there's nothing there.
YODA: You're a dumbass. <smack!>

Hell, the little kid figured it out!

Mind you, even Obi Dumb-ass is still apparently better than the entire Federation's complement of "stellar cartographers", because he could find that planet from thousands of light years away and they can't find one even when they're sitting in front of it.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-12 03:37pm

The Teacher wrote:Actually, Trekkie sensos are far more advanced in comparison to Warsie sensors.

Ex) A Federation Standard has sensors capable of picking out INDIVIDUAL life forms. Warsie sensors can tell you if life is there.

Right, that's why they couldn't beam out Riker from an alien hospital when he was undercover, even though they were orbiting directly overhead.

Ex2) Federation sensors were able to locate a positronic signal parscs away, and pinpont them withing 10 meters. Warsie sensors could tell you that SOMEthing was there, and possibly analyze it.

Yet they can't find an entire planet even when they're sitting in front of it. Detection of anything which throws out an active signal is not that difficult.

But, in my opinion, it is the Warsie EVERYTHING that is superior, if only for my own personal ego.

Sounds like someone's out to troll.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-12 03:40pm

The Teacher wrote:Actually, Trekkie sensos are far more advanced in comparison to Warsie sensors.

Ex) A Federation Standard has sensors capable of picking out INDIVIDUAL life forms. Warsie sensors can tell you if life is there.

If you are referring to the incident on Dagobah with an X-Wing, I would remind you that an X-Wing is a starfighter without nearly the sensor sophistication of more powerful ships. Moreover, we don't know that the X-Wing's sensors did not get a count on the number of life-forms there, and that Luke was not merely abreviating with his statement. Finally, I have never seen Star Trek sensors detect single beings on planets that are covered in swamp, like Dagobah.

Ex2) Federation sensors were able to locate a positronic signal parscs away, and pinpont them withing 10 meters. Warsie sensors could tell you that SOMEthing was there, and possibly analyze it.

Other times they have not been able to detect Data when he was in the same system that they were. Moreover, it was a trap set for the E-E. Of course it is dependent on the ship's ability to detect positrons, and finally their excursion to the planet demonstrated that their ship's sensors from orbit were LESS accurate than tricorder readings from the surface.

But, in my opinion, it is the Warsie EVERYTHING that is superior, if only for my own personal ego.

Erm... what?

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-01-12 03:42pm

Originally posted by Dork Shit

The Rebel fleet couldn't detect the 27 Imperial ships (including the humongous
Executor) hiding on the far side of Endor in Return of the Jedi. In Star Trek
II, the sensors tracked the Reliant on the opposite side of Regula.

Hey Captain Lies Too Much, Truth time is now.

Lando: How could they be jamming us if they don't know that...we're coming?

Hear that? The DSII was jamming so much they couldn't even detect the shield.