STGOD: A Dead Art?

[Starglider]

Starglider, you've completely forgotten the fact that your ships have already been detected on long range arrays and that our fleets were already moving to block off the flight plans.

This is irrelevant if they all started near Nowa Masovie and did not start moving until the incoming fleets were 30 minutes from Ruda Slaska (and were detected 30 minutes after that, with one hour still to go). Which they were described as doing. If they had done anything else, the sensor picture would have been different.

We do get near real time data on White Haven and UC's maneuvers and can easily adjust our courses and interdiction fields. The fleeing ships find out we are there after they enter their sensor range, after its too late.

This is also irrelevant. Thirdfain's description of the detection sequence establishes the sensor range of the strike fleets as equivalent to one hour of FTL travel (at the speed the combined defence fleets are moving at). You had plenty of advance notice (many hours) of the fleets coming in, and Thirdfain chose not to act on it. From that point on the two large fleets were in shipboard sensor range of each other, so there is no difference in the time lag for each side (probably a few minutes, if sensors work at the same speeds as standard FTL comms). I don't know exactly where the Portugese interception fleet was, but it would have to be at least two hours out from the colony to avoid being detected before now.

We have the advantage of multiple, separate fleets maneuvering to cut them off and can do so.

You had ample opportunity to establish multiple fleets at dispersed locations earlier and you did not do so. Thirdfain placed them all within a few minutes of Nowy Masovie so that he could crush the invading fleets in one swift blow. Which would have worked just fine if he'd bothered to co-ordinate with Beowulf better. He did not so they did not.

Furthermore, the fleets don't have equal speed. The light elements are the fastest. If they run full out, they abandon the cruisers and the capships.

This was covered in discussion before the game started. Sublight speed is influenced by ship size. FTL speed is not. You have to spend points on it to go faster. Both fleets have some elements with extra-fast FTL drives. If you want your extra-fast ships to go ahead and catch the fleeing ships, you can do so. They will have to fight for somewhere between 30 and 60 minutes before reinforcements arrive.

EDIT: Note that you will need extra-fast interdictors, specifically, to do this. I'm fairly sure the weapons we've got in this setting (railguns, lasers, chemically propelled missiles) can't shoot an FTL target from an FTL firing platform. You have to run ahead, close with the enemy, force them to sublight, keep moving with them to interdict, and keep all your interdictors intact for long enough for the main body of pursuers to catch up.

[Imperial Overlord]

Starglider, you've completely forgotten the fact that your ships have already been detected on long range arrays and that our fleets were already moving to block off the flight plans.

This is irrelevant if they all started near Nowa Masovie and did not start moving until the incoming fleets were 30 minutes from Ruda Slaska (and were detected 30 minutes after that, with one hour still to go). Which they were described as doing. If they had done anything else, the sensor picture would have been different.

Quite relevant as that puts your ships well into Ruda Slaska's none FTL zone and velocity committed to going deeper in. Your own delta V traps you inside the non FTL zone for an hour at least.

We do get near real time data on White Haven and UC's maneuvers and can easily adjust our courses and interdiction fields. The fleeing ships find out we are there after they enter their sensor range, after its too late.

This is also irrelevant. Thirdfain's description of the detection sequence establishes the sensor range of the strike fleets as equivalent to one hour of FTL travel (at the speed the combined defence fleets are moving at). You had plenty of advance notice (many hours) of the fleets coming in, and Thirdfain chose not to act on it. From that point on the two large fleets were in shipboard sensor range of each other, so there is no difference in the time lag for each side (probably a few minutes, if sensors work at the same speeds as standard FTL comms). I don't know exactly where the Portugese interception fleet was, but it would have to be at least two hours out from the colony to avoid being detected before now.

Again, addressed. The fleets will have to set courses to burn their way out of the no FTL zone and that will be relayed to intercepting fleets. They will be waiting.

We have the advantage of multiple, separate fleets maneuvering to cut them off and can do so.

You had ample opportunity to establish multiple fleets at dispersed locations earlier and you did not do so. Thirdfain placed them all within a few minutes of Nowy Masovie so that he could crush the invading fleets in one swift blow. Which would have worked just fine if he'd bothered to co-ordinate with Beowulf better. He did not so they did not.

They left from one system, that is true, but they didn't all leave on the same vector. They do have the opportunity to deploy in different areas and trap the fleets, with advanced knowledge of which direction the fleets will be traveling in.

This was covered in discussion before the game started. Sublight speed is influenced by ship size. FTL speed is not.

Conceded. Somehow I remember it differently, but that was after searching that was an earlier train of thought was was decided against.


Frankly, yes the ambush could have been handled better, but the metagaming going on in "all of sudden my fleet gets massive cold feet for the flimsiest reason I can pull out of my ass" was rather repugnant. That it got sprung when it did owes a lot to a lack of faith in how some people were playing the game.

[Starglider]

Your own delta V traps you inside the non FTL zone for an hour at least.

Nope, sorry, contradicted by mod ruling. You are reading this thread right? The 'hyper limit' extends to high planetary orbit, no further. This is why I clarified it with SirNitram before proceeding. Thirdfain explicitly told myself and White Haven that the incoming fleets detect the defenders moving before they reach the target system. So they just turned right around without dropping out of FTL.

If you wanted to catch all the attackers in the system's no-FTL regions, you should've waited another 30-60 minutes before launching.

They left from one system, that is true, but they didn't all leave on the same vector.

If true this just makes your situation worse (well, in the 'very slightly less overwhelming' sense) - I assumed all your ships were taking an optimal intercept vector. If you're spread out then you won't be able to bunch up again without dropping even further behind.

Frankly, yes the ambush could have been handled better, but the metagaming going on in "all of sudden my fleet gets massive cold feet for the flimsiest reason I can pull out of my ass" was rather repugnant.

The switch to a secondary target was not metagaming. The four fleets establishing comms as they get close to the target was preplanned, and naturally half the attackers not turning up was a cause for concern. IMHO White Haven's idea to force the defenders to show their hand (i.e. find out if it was a setup or not) was quite brilliant, and much better than how I thought the incoming fleets should react. But had you not made a retarded decision about exactly when to launch, it would not have resulted in much benefit.

I can't say anything about the decision to run away instead of fighting it out. It seems out of character with the League, but maybe they're less aggressive than they look. I personally wanted to stand and fight, but with the League gone there was really no hope of the pirates inflicting noticable casualties on their own, so I had them run with the Leage in the hope that at least standing together they would inflict significant damage before dying.

[Imperial Overlord]

Your own delta V traps you inside the non FTL zone for an hour at least.

This is why I clarified it with SirNitram before proceeding. Thirdfain explicitly told myself and White Haven that the incoming fleets detect the defenders moving before they reach the target system. So they just turned right around without dropping out of FTL.

Yes, I am reading the thread. The non-FTL zone extends more than an AU, roughly an hour and a half travel time by fast ship. While not all of the ships are in the non FTL zone, you have moved a bunch in. And Nitram's words were "very little time". Which still means time.

They left from one system, that is true, but they didn't all leave on the same vector.

If true this just makes your situation worse (well, in the 'very slightly less overwhelming' sense) - I assumed all your ships were taking an optimal intercept vector. If you're spread out then you won't be able to bunch up again without dropping even further behind.

It's only unfavorable if you're moving as one mass, not as multiple separate task forces moving to block multiple possible escape routes. It means all groups take the optimum vector(s) to block routes. And only to those particular ships.

The switch to a secondary target was not metagaming.

Right, your super secret stealth attack force was going to get noisy hours before it attacked. You'll have to live with my skepticism.

[Starglider]

The non-FTL zone extends more than an AU, roughly an hour and a half travel time by fast ship.

If 'clearing the planet's orbital defences' is somehow not clear enough for you:

Just to clarify something I've had two people pester me about: It takes very little time to bugger out of a system presuming you aren't held by Interdiction or obeying Traffic Control. Get clear of a planet's orbital defenses and you can book it like it's going out of style.

then here is some relevant IM log:

Starglider: It would help if you could confirm that ship speed/hyperlimit detail.
SirNitram: Was this the bit where it was wondered whether you could detect the basic type of craft from the hyperlimit, or the time to reach the hyperlimit?
Starglider: You said that it takes one hour to get from the 'hyper limit' (presumably Honorverse style) to the inner planets?
Starglider: That was a lot less than I expected, given people usually pop out of FTL out around Pluto or further when approaching earth.
Starglider: However the later might be for traffic control reasons?
SirNitram: That's what I always thought. This isn't Honorverse or 40k: It's relatively easy to head FTL unless something is holding you there. I believe I actually said 'Less than an hour', especially for military ships saying 'Fuck you' to traffic control.
SirNitram: I always envisioned it closer to ST and SW, where you just have to get free of the planet.
Starglider: Right. So at 10 gravities of acceleration, IMHO still pretty good for a fusion-powered heavily armoured warship, the hyperlimit would be around the orbit of Luna?
SirNitram: Pretty much.
Starglider: So basically you have to clear all the orbital defences first, but you can FTL shortly after that.
SirNitram: Yeah.
Starglider: Well, that's good, since it means relativistic planetkills aren't as pathetically easy as they would be at 1000g, or worse, 1,000,000g.
SirNitram: Right. The main idea is to keep Planet-Killing off the table and still have large incentive not to leave planets utterly undefended.
Starglider: Yes, if it takes days to get to relativistic velocities, then defenders should be able to hyper in and intercept.

While not all of the ships are in the non FTL zone, you have moved a bunch in.

I detached four cruisers and sent them in in a desperate gamble to buy time. Which failed. However unless there is a standoff, which apparently there will not be, that situation will be resolved long before the fleeing fleet is caught or runs into anything.

It means all groups take the optimum vector(s) to block routes. And only to those particular ships.

You appear to be using some definition of 'optimum vector' that is incompatible with reality. There is only one 'optimum vector' for any given intercept. Strictly, if you could predict in advance that the fleeing fleet would turn parallel to the chasing fleet (which is actually fairly reasonable), then there is a slightly-more-optimum vector that one element could have followed that would put them a little closer behind than the main fleet (that the League were reacting to). However if you've scattered your ships, many of them will be on much-less-than-optimal vectors. In other worlds, you're proposing smearing your fleet out into a long train of dispersed elements all chasing the single fleeing fleet.

You can do that if you want of course, but it sounds like really bad tactics to me.

Right, your super secret stealth attack force was going to get noisy hours before it attacked.

Yes, nearly half a day before they reached the target - specifically, exactly when they thought they were crossing into the next, undisrupted ring of tracking (actually they'd been on tracking since shortly after they started their runs, but of course they didn't know that). My original timescale was actually 36 hours or so before getting to the target, but I compressed it by a factor of 3 or so to partially accomodate Thirdfain's demands for ridiculously high ship speeds.

Why would they not do this? The Polish already know they're coming and how many ships there are (in fact Thirdfain was arguing for being able to ascertain exact reactor power outputs over interstellar ranges earlier). What possible benefit would there be to maintaining comms silience at this point?

Had Thirdfain said 'sure, if you knock out my outer tracking stations, you'll have a clear run all the way to the target - the back up is just narrow areas of tracking centered on the planets themselves', then the incoming fleets would've maintained comms silence and guess what, you would have ambushed them perfectly. But he chose to say 'oh no, I have complete overlapping coverage of my entire space, blowing up 15 tracking stations will just put small dents into the outer coverage area'. Which is fine, but it takes away any motive to maintain comms silence, and by making himself less vulnerable he also made the incoming fleets less vulnerable.

[Imperial Overlord]

I'm getting tired of this quote and paste, so I simply state my points. It's really late for me, so if I'm incoherent I apologize.


I wasn't privy to Nitram's IM conversation. The last number I had was 1.2 AU. The term orbital defences, in the case of my particular nation, includes long range weapons mounted on its moons and established ranges have been vague up to now. Upside is I reconsider the argument in the morning, but it the zone appears to be is smaller than I thought.

No, we are using the same definition of optimum, but the optimum vector for a fleet moving to reinforce a system and that which is moving to intercept a fleeing fleet that it has near real time data about its course from are two different things. I'm taking into account moving ahead of your fleet and maneuvering to block them. You can detect Thirdfain's ships that are moving directly into the system sooner than mine which are moving at a different vector to block the escape path.

As for the metagaming, your arguments are unconvincing. I find the previous posting about discussing dying ships trying to overload their systems for a desperate transmission and White Haven's ships being jumpy and ready to bolt the moment the in system situation looked slightly abnormal more convincing than post hoc mission protocols appearing out of thin air.

[Starglider]

I wasn't privy to Nitram's IM conversation. The last number I had was 1.2 AU. The term orbital defences, in the case of my particular nation, includes long range weapons mounted on its moons and established ranges have been vague up to now.

Yes, this is why I tried (along with Hotfoot and a few others) to get these basic game parameters nailed down before we started. The resistance some people showed to this is incomprehensible to me.

Upside is I reconsider the argument in the morning, but it the zone appears to be is smaller than I thought.

The value isn't important as long as it is consistent. However I see no reason to retcon the 'high-orbit' figure now established.

I'm taking into account moving ahead of your fleet and maneuvering to block them.

You fundamentally cannot do this unless 1) your ships are faster or 2) there is a retrograde component to the opponent's vector, such that you can draw converging lines. 2) can't be the case if White Haven geninuely wanted to run away. Checking your OOB, 1) isn't the case either, though obviously the fleeing ships don't know that in character.

You can detect Thirdfain's ships that are moving directly into the system sooner than mine which are moving at a different vector to block the escape path.

Incorrect, given spherical sensor coverage, or rather it holds for UCB's ships but White Haven's would actually detect you before Thirdfain's ships, because you have to cut across his inbound vector to make the optimal path to the fleeting ships.

As for the metagaming, your arguments are unconvincing.

CONCESSION ACCEPTED if you can't be bothered to point out actual flaws in my reasoning.

[Imperial Overlord]

As for the metagaming, your arguments are unconvincing.

CONCESSION ACCEPTED if you can't be bothered to point out actual flaws in my reasoning.

I did. Noisy FTL Transmissions hours before a stealth attack are inconsistent with actually having one. Arguments over how far sensor range extend don't invalidate my points. If you're sneaking to any massing point, FTL transmissions break stealth. You have failed to refute that, only talking around detection distances while wanting to have a stealth fleet within hours of travel time of enemy worlds.

Either 1) sensor ranges are so long you can't do this. This has been invalidates.

2) you can sneak around, but sending signals risks detection.

2 applies. You haven't invalidated it. Nor have you addressed any of my supplemental points, preffering to dismiss them without addressing them.

[Starglider]

Noisy FTL Transmissions hours before a stealth attack are inconsistent with actually having one.

It was not a 'stealth attack' because according to Thirdfain, stealth attacks are impossible, at least without using cloaked ships. It was a surprise attack in that there was no additional warning beyond the standard warning everyone gets from their tracking networks.

If you're sneaking to any massing point, FTL transmissions break stealth.

And there were no transmissions in the 'sneaking to the staging areas' stage.

only talking around detection distances while wanting to have a stealth fleet within hours of travel time of enemy worlds.

I'm sure we would've loved to have this but it is not possible. Again, are you actually reading anything other than a tiny subset of this thread? THERE ARE NO STEALTH FLEETS WITHOUT CLOAKING. YOU CAN'T GET CLOSER THAN A DAY OR SO OUT WITHOUT BEING DETECTED, UNLESS YOU'RE CLOAKED.

Either 1) sensor ranges are so long you can't do this. This has been invalidates.

You seem to be under the delusion that the 'shipboard sensors have a range equivalent to one hour's travel' also applies to strategic tracking networks. I have no idea how, when there has been abundent confirmation that it took the fleets in question over a day to get to the target and they were being tracked by Thirdfain's strategic network the whole time. You were just arguing yourself earlier that you had 'perfect realtime information' about the location of the attacking fleets because of all the strategic sensor coverage. This contradiction strikes me as outright dishonest, but I will put it down to oversight.

Nor have you addressed any of my supplemental points, preffering to dismiss them without addressing them.

As far as I can see I've addressed all your points. Which ones am I missing?

[Imperial Overlord]

Stealth attacks and cloaking are two different things, although admittedly they go well together. Your ships got together at secret meeting points close to Thirdfain's space to sneak attack Thirdfain without warning. That fits the definition of stealth to me.

When you're being sneaky like that, FTL transmissions are a risk. Since you had your rendevous points set, attack targets set, and timing set they are an unnecessary one.

You haven't convincingly addressed that issue.

You haven't addressed why the "oh well we'll be transmitting a lot" only showed up after discussions about ambushed ships overloading their systems to get signals out.

You haven't addresssed why White Haven was so eager to bolt.

No GM's have ruled that your side should be punished for it, nor am I arguing that any GM action should be taken. I'm just saying it reeks of metagaming and I find you denials unconvincing.

I'm quite aware that long range sensor arrays have longer range than ship systems. Hell, I spent points to have extra good ones.

[Starglider]

Stealth attacks and cloaking are two different things, although admittedly they go well together.

Cloaked ships don't have a choice; they're double-blind. The only cloaked/stealth attacks in this operation were mine. They didn't break cloak and start looking around until well after the penetration was underway.

I did refer to some of UCB's ships cloaking briefly, but that was just because they'd spent 20% of their points on them and I wanted to get some use out of them. AFAIK that was fluff with no game effect.

Your ships got together at secret meeting points close to Thirdfain's space to sneak attack Thirdfain without warning. That fits the definition of stealth to me.

There is no way for anyone to detect fleet movement out there - unless they happen to have patrol ships in exactly the right spot. If that's 'stealth' then I don't know what the alternative is; the attacking ships would have to deliberately fly through monitored space close to other nations if they wanted to be detected - or deliberately tell the enemy they were coming.

Calling it 'stealth' is a total misnomer. Consider a fleet of bombers attacking Russia in the cold war. The limit on warning time (several hours) is set by the range of the Russian ground-based radars, which are vastly longer than the ranges of the radars on their fighters. The bombers maneuver to penetrate Russian airspace along optimal vectors, and maintain radio silence while they do so. There's no way to detect them out over the arctic except by guessing they're coming and sending an interceptor out to where you think they'll be. But this is not 'stealth', it is just a surprise attack.

Actual stealth was invented much later, and involves slipping through the enemy's tracking network and getting close to the target before being detected (if at all). I used stealth when I killed those tracking stations, but unless the ships involved are unusually difficult to track there is no 'stealth', unless you want to classify not telegraphing your actions at the diplomatic level as 'stealth'.

When you're being sneaky like that, FTL transmissions are a risk.

And there were no FTL transmissions at that stage. If there had been, taking out Noble Ire would've meant the other two fleets turning back immediately. My contribution of taking out the outer tracking stations actually made things worse here; without those (supposed) dents in the tracking network, tactical data sharing would've started as soon as the fleets were definitely within the original tracking perimeter.

You haven't convincingly addressed that issue.

Of course I have. You are studiously ignoring the established fact that Thirdfain could track those fleets for 12+ hours on the way to the target, and the incoming fleets knew this (actually it was more like a day but they didn't know that) despite the fact that earlier you were using this as a reason for why they should be interceptable now.

You haven't addressed why the "oh well we'll be transmitting a lot" only showed up after discussions about ambushed ships overloading their systems to get signals out.

I do wish I'd telegraphed that point to a mod beforehand, but I was dealing with a lot of material and little details and I missed it. I was not supposed to be in this attack, so prior to being assigned control of UCB's ships it was just a suggestion to the other players.

You haven't addresssed why White Haven was so eager to bolt.

I haven't attempted to. As I noted at the beginning, it seems out of character for the League to me, but that's White Haven's decision not mine. I personally wanted to make a stand at Ruda Slaska, but I can't see the Pirates doing it alone if the League ships (who brought rather more combat power) run away. I've confirmed that this is the correct interpretation of his nation with UCB. I can't imagine you missed that if you're actually reading the thread as closely as you claim, so I can only assume this is a quite deliberate (and pathetic) strawman.

I'm quite aware that long range sensor arrays have longer range than ship systems. Hell, I spent points to have extra good ones.

Then how on earth can you make your earlier argument about the viability of 'stealth attacks with uncloaked ships'?

[Thirdfain]

Starglider, I'm DEEPLY disappointed. All your figures and so on are bullshit, for one reason above any others. In the grand tradition of STGODing, you and I NEGOTIATED this entire segment of the battle. You AGREED to a 30-minute intercept period. The entire point of STGOD negotiation is to avoid moments like this, which obnoxiously blossom into hhuge arguments.

We had an agreement- your ships would flee, and due to their deepness in Polish space, we'd have 30 minutes of engagement time as they escaped.

You agreed that was a fair outcome for this segment of the engagement. Why are you arguing differently now?

Simply put, Starglider, it's impossible to have deeply accurate game mechanics in an STGOD. The precise locations of all my patrol fleets in Polish space are not logged, for instance, nor are the positions of the allied contingents around Earth. Nor, for that matter, is the location of Ruda Slaska!

It is an exercise in futility to try to scientifically plan these things out, which is why we have the negotiation process- were two players can agree on things such as engagement times and the success of ambushes. You seemed pretty on board to me when we made this agreement yesterday.

[Thirdfain]

(in fact Thirdfain was arguing for being able to ascertain exact reactor power outputs over interstellar ranges earlier)

Oh, and don't put words in my mouth. I argued that at short ranges- less than an AU- you could tell how major a power source a warship was, for the purposes of balance. Pu-lease.

[rhoenix]

Revised 1st turn point increases, to account for UC Booties leaving:

6 Valkyrie-class assault ships (60 points)
+20 to defensive spying (20 points)
+20 to offensive spying (20 points)
Ground Combat: +50 (enhanced mitochondrial environmental abilities) (50 points)
===
150 points total

New ship class: Valkyrie - Rapid Heavy Assault (10 points)
(6 point base, +2 points EW, +2 points FTL speed, Cloaking Shields)
Weapons Loadout: 4 Heavy Flailguns, 4 Glaser Cannons, 8 MEEN's

Designed for Jotun operatives, the Valkyrie was made to handle a variety of roles well, while excelling in pure rapidity and efficiency. The stealth systems onboard this ship rival that of the Hel-class, being nearly silent, even without the cloaking device activated. It also is trans-atmospheric with minimal impact on either the ship or the planet. This is also the only ship in the Golden Sky Combine Navy that can be piloted only by Jotun in full combat armor.

(EDIT: I completely forgot a few details about the Valkyrie. Fixed.)

[Hotfoot]

Right, my concerns as to my first turn of production:

Concern One: Back in the first post or so I made in the in-game thread, I refferred to my power shifting to a total war footing with projected economic failure at the five year mark, as I was expecting the bangbus to at least be on its way by now. This is, of course, totally a mod call on whether it has any game effect whatsoever, whether it takes one or more full production turns to kick in, and what if any, concrete power-gaming benefit is provided.

Eh. I'm disinclined to give any sort of point increase for "full war footing". Given that these games tend to last less than two years of in-game time, it makes things like "oh, we'll run out of money in five years" meaningless, and thus it becomes a way to get free production with no consequences. Since I have already ruled that there is to be no deficit spending, this is right out. Also, if everyone isn't on full war footing in the first three months of the game, something's not right.

Concern Two: as the only power to yet make a successful(ish) blatant landgrab, whether or not the two hundred point power I stepped on provides any benefit, and whether or not that takes a full turn or more to kick in, especially with ongoing resistance and the need to rebuild system infrastructure. Again, totally a mod call, and I'll cheerfully play it whichever way it goes.

My rule is that it doesn't count until you can get trade going effectively in the region. Nominally a 200 point power would grant 20 points going by the current system, but of course if you smashed up the centers of production too badly, you'll reduce that further. I'll have to take a look at how you went about things again, but I'd say you can expect a 10-20 point increase in the next "turn", assuming you shore things up appropriately.

Concern Three: The 172 points of spaceship debris from the last stand of the Drakolian Fleet that would have been swept up and reprocessed as practical. Yet again once more very much a mod call, and a precedent that probably needs to be set one way or another.

Production is not simply raw resources. Rather, it is the ability to turn raw resources into working starships, etc. 172 points of cracked, irradiated hulls that need to be cleaned, reforged, etc. aren't going to give you a big boost to your production. They can give you some valuable intel if you strip them down correctly, they can be used as husks for training new crews on how to fire weapons at range, but otherwise?

If the ships were relatively intact, I could see spending some time in spacedock stripping out the electronics and retrofitting them for your own use, then I would potentially support spending a modest sum to make them yours because you do not need to build them from scratch, just plug up a few holes and rip out the command and control systems. This however, will be discussed with the other mods.

[Nephtys]

STMC New Production.

Code: Select all

1x Helictical Formation (50 pts)
3x Deep Space Element (60 pts)
4x Perimeter Element (40 pts)
(Approx 300,000 Ships)

Not Enough Vespene Gas!

[Imperial Overlord]

It is quite simple Starglider. You seem to have the impression that an attack must employ stealth technology in the form of cloaking to be considererd stealthy. While cloaking is highly valuable is stealth operations, it does not define them.

1) There was no declaration of war or any other indication to the target that military action would take place.

2) There were secret maneuver and movement orders to secret rendevous points with other ships.

3) These massing points were relatively close to their targets, allowing the still secret fleets to quickly deploy and attack.

4) They ships then moved to attack their targets under the belief that by the time they were detected, it would be too late for the defender to do anything but take the hit.

From the first planning step, the operation is conceived of as a sneak attack. Only a few of the ships taking part employ stealth technology in the form of cloaking, but the entire operation depends on secrecy and stealth. The operation is blown by someone revealing the plan to the target, thus negating its stealth.

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

Concern Three: The 172 points of spaceship debris from the last stand of the Drakolian Fleet that would have been swept up and reprocessed as practical. Yet again once more very much a mod call, and a precedent that probably needs to be set one way or another.

Production is not simply raw resources. Rather, it is the ability to turn raw resources into working starships, etc. 172 points of cracked, irradiated hulls that need to be cleaned, reforged, etc. aren't going to give you a big boost to your production. They can give you some valuable intel if you strip them down correctly, they can be used as husks for training new crews on how to fire weapons at range, but otherwise?

If the ships were relatively intact, I could see spending some time in spacedock stripping out the electronics and retrofitting them for your own use, then I would potentially support spending a modest sum to make them yours because you do not need to build them from scratch, just plug up a few holes and rip out the command and control systems. This however, will be discussed with the other mods.

That actually brings me to a related concern of mine.

During the First Battle of Sol, two Wendee Lee class frigates (2 points each) and a single Char Aznable class destroyer (5 points) were lost to the STMC's forces; they were later recovered from the debris field relatively intact and sent back to a CCS shipyard. Would it actually cost any points on my part if I'm salvaging my own ships and reprocessing them?

[Nephtys]

Concern Three: The 172 points of spaceship debris from the last stand of the Drakolian Fleet that would have been swept up and reprocessed as practical. Yet again once more very much a mod call, and a precedent that probably needs to be set one way or another.

Production is not simply raw resources. Rather, it is the ability to turn raw resources into working starships, etc. 172 points of cracked, irradiated hulls that need to be cleaned, reforged, etc. aren't going to give you a big boost to your production. They can give you some valuable intel if you strip them down correctly, they can be used as husks for training new crews on how to fire weapons at range, but otherwise?

If the ships were relatively intact, I could see spending some time in spacedock stripping out the electronics and retrofitting them for your own use, then I would potentially support spending a modest sum to make them yours because you do not need to build them from scratch, just plug up a few holes and rip out the command and control systems. This however, will be discussed with the other mods.

That actually brings me to a related concern of mine.

During the First Battle of Sol, two Wendee Lee class frigates (2 points each) and a single Char Aznable class destroyer (5 points) were lost to the STMC's forces; they were later recovered from the debris field relatively intact and sent back to a CCS shipyard. Would it actually cost any points on my part if I'm salvaging my own ships and reprocessing them?

Sounds to me as if repair work is more or less the same as a reconstruction. With ships put out of action from serious damage. Recycling scrap however, is unlikely to bolster anyone's production. Resources are not the bottleneck here.

[rhoenix]

Which brings a related concern of mine to light.

Are we allowed to implement large factory-type craft (i.e. something like the Mothership in the Homeworld series of games)- effectively repair/salvage/manufacturing/carrier ships?

[consequences]

Right, my concerns as to my first turn of production:

Concern One: Back in the first post or so I made in the in-game thread, I refferred to my power shifting to a total war footing with projected economic failure at the five year mark, as I was expecting the bangbus to at least be on its way by now. This is, of course, totally a mod call on whether it has any game effect whatsoever, whether it takes one or more full production turns to kick in, and what if any, concrete power-gaming benefit is provided.

Eh. I'm disinclined to give any sort of point increase for "full war footing". Given that these games tend to last less than two years of in-game time, it makes things like "oh, we'll run out of money in five years" meaningless, and thus it becomes a way to get free production with no consequences. Since I have already ruled that there is to be no deficit spending, this is right out. Also, if everyone isn't on full war footing in the first three months of the game, something's not right.

Concern Two: as the only power to yet make a successful(ish) blatant landgrab, whether or not the two hundred point power I stepped on provides any benefit, and whether or not that takes a full turn or more to kick in, especially with ongoing resistance and the need to rebuild system infrastructure. Again, totally a mod call, and I'll cheerfully play it whichever way it goes.

My rule is that it doesn't count until you can get trade going effectively in the region. Nominally a 200 point power would grant 20 points going by the current system, but of course if you smashed up the centers of production too badly, you'll reduce that further. I'll have to take a look at how you went about things again, but I'd say you can expect a 10-20 point increase in the next "turn", assuming you shore things up appropriately.

Concern Three: The 172 points of spaceship debris from the last stand of the Drakolian Fleet that would have been swept up and reprocessed as practical. Yet again once more very much a mod call, and a precedent that probably needs to be set one way or another.

Production is not simply raw resources. Rather, it is the ability to turn raw resources into working starships, etc. 172 points of cracked, irradiated hulls that need to be cleaned, reforged, etc. aren't going to give you a big boost to your production. They can give you some valuable intel if you strip them down correctly, they can be used as husks for training new crews on how to fire weapons at range, but otherwise?

If the ships were relatively intact, I could see spending some time in spacedock stripping out the electronics and retrofitting them for your own use, then I would potentially support spending a modest sum to make them yours because you do not need to build them from scratch, just plug up a few holes and rip out the command and control systems. This however, will be discussed with the other mods.

Cool on all counts. Given the way I described that battle, I'll be getting approximately jack squat back, as free-floating debris is the majority of what's left, especially of my ships, and intel won't matter much with my grinding the power in question into the dirt. However, pirates throughout known space should be pleased to note that a large quantity of discount priced, if slightly irradiated, ship systems and weaponry are soon going to come on the market.

[Hotfoot]

The rulings are thus:

-Enemy ships salvaged/captured in states Damaged/Crippled can be retrofitted for half the cost of the ship (rounded up, always at least one). This is to represent you gutting them of their power sources, electronics, etc, and replacing them entirely with your own stuff. In other words, you're doing a considerable amount more work converting these ships to your standards than if you were just patching up one of your ships.

-Your own damaged ships are fixed "for free" if damaged/crippled. This, however, still takes time. It's assumed you have your usual fleet tenders and supply depots to take care of basic repairs in the field to keep the fleet moving as much as possible. Hulled ships, of course, are scrap. Serious damage will have to be taken back to your spacedocks for repairs.

-No mobile shipyards. Bad Rhoenix. No cookie.

For reference, I've always considered there to be three basic damage states. "Damaged" means that you've taken minor to moderate hull damage, overstressed a few shield generators, overheated the drive array, etc. This is easily fixed in the grand scheme of things, the ship is still mobile (usually), though is more easily damaged in coming battles.

"Crippled" means that the unit is very badly damaged, missing big chunks of hull, weapon systems, etc. It can no longer effectively fight in any real sense, though it may still be able to use weapons, move, use sensors, etc, but it cannot do all at once, making it basically useless until you can get it into a spacedock.

"Hulled" means the ship is now little more than a scrap heap. You might be able to salvage parts from it, but that's about all it's good for, aside from training new crew on how to use ship weapon systems.

Obviously there is some variation in these, but by and large these are good guidelines in determining what sort of losses you take in a given battle. This is not an official ruling in itself, but I enjoy it.

[A-Wing_Slash]

I'm going to be offline for the next few days, so please nobody annihilate me while I'm gone. Also here's my new production:

Code: Select all

1x Kodiak BB (30 pts)
2x Grizzly CA (24 pts)
2x Kermode EW cruiser (16 pts)
5 pts to NGTO Tradeship
48 points to Svalbard planetary defense
27 points to Kalevala Planetary defense

[Beowulf]

Code: Select all

>>> Battle of the Backstab <<<

Location  : Deep Space near Polish borders
Situation : Faction decides to gang up on Poland, but fails to vet their allies well. Kitaka
            turn on their ostensible allies, assisted by the Habsburg Empire.
Forces    : 1  x Kitaka 'Kusari' class (55 pts, heavy damage)
            5  x Kitaka 'Kusari' class (55 pts, undamaged)
            1  x Kitaka 'Kuro' class (16 pts, moderate damage)
            5  x Kitaka 'Kuro' class (16 pts, minimal damage)
            1  x Kitaka 'Asura' class (6 pts, destroyed)
            9  x Kitaka 'Asura' class (6 pts, minimal damage)
            14 x Kitaka 'Asura' class (6 pts, undamaged)
            3  x Kitaka 'Ace' class (2 pts, destroyed)
            21 x Kitaka 'Ace' class (2 pts, minimal damage)
            2  x Habsburg 'Santisima Trinidad' class (45 pts, undamaged)
            2  x Habsburg 'Wien' class (30 pts, minimal damage)
            7  x Habsburg 'Castilla ' class (27 pts, undamaged)
            13  x Habsburg 'Reyes Catolicos' class (9 pts, minimal damage)
            2  x Habsburg 'Reyes Catolicos' class (9 pts, moderate damage)
            4  x Kiroter'nah 'Voyager' class (10 pts, destroyed)
            14 x FEA 'Leukophil' class (1 pt, destroyed)
            5  x FEA 'Esinophil' class (20 pts, destroyed)
            4  x FEA 'Ossea' class (22 pts, destroyed)
            4  x FEA 'Neutrophil' class (30 pts, destroyed)
Notes     : 'Kusari' crippled by ramming attack by opposing enemy cruiser.
            2 Kitakan destroyers vaporised ramming attacks, one lost with all crew.
            1 Kitakan destroyer and one frigate hulled
            20 some FEA personel captured by Kitaka/Habsburg

[rhoenix]

-No mobile shipyards. Bad Rhoenix. No cookie.

Had to ask.