B5 planetkillers

[Enlightenment]

Incidentally, spacebattles.com doesn't resolve at the moment. We're more usefully known as the http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums people these days.

They shut down?

I don't know exactly what's going on. The forums are running as usual but the spacebattles frontpage is only accesible via IP address. The domain registration is either furbared or just plain gone.

You'd probably need to email one of the admins (addresses here) if you want a definitive answer.

[Enlightenment]

However, if the Shadow Death Cloud is maintained at a low temperature, and wraps around the YR ships, the YR ships will radiate heat into the cloud.

The only way the SPK ('SDC') could sink heat out of ships at a higher rate than normal space losses would be for the SPK to be dense enough that conduction and/or convection came into play. A cloud that dense, however, would have other characteristics that the SPK did not have, such as atmospheric effects around lights, turbulence around moving ships, and quite possibly (depending on the particle size) an abrasive sandpaper-like effect on all those oh-so-shiny B5 hulls.

[Crossover_Maniac]

(Just checking in on my board)

Interesting ... everyone, crowd around and examine "Crossover Maniac's debating tactics:

Not even a cloud of nanobots could 'drain power' from a ship. That takes technobabble or metaphysics. Read the nanotech brainbugs page

Since you want to get technical
...
According to Mike Wong, the Death Star superlaser generates 1E38 joules per shot. In order to generate that with just fusion would take 2.63E20 metric tons of deuterium and helium-3. For comparisons in mass, the Earth's mass is 5.96E21 metric tons. That's 4.4% of the Earth's mass in fusion fuel used for one shot of a weapon. Even using antimatter, the numbers aren't that good considering the size of the first one is only 160 kilometers and the second one 900 kilometers. The numbers are 1.1E18 metric tons of matter and antimatter annihilating each other to generate that amount of energy. Unless we discover how get energy from a vacuum (zero-point energy) or discover how to make wormholes and place them inside a star or a quasar, we'll never get that amount of power and Star Wars will stay a fantasy.

Now, I don't selectively suspend my disbelief like some Warsies do. Star Wars break just as many laws of physics as B5 and ST does (actually, B5 was realistic enough to have ships that had to rotate to produce artifical gravity and starfigters pilots that had to deal with G-forces like pilots in the real world, at least until the later episodes). It's very hypocritical of you to demand B5 and ST to abide by real world physics but not SW.

Debating observations: notice the clever use of the subject change.

What subject change. I took the show at its word that the Shadow ships can drain ships of their power. Then this guys says, "that's against the laws of physics." Then I just reminded him Star Wars routinely breaks the laws of physics. I was only responded to an attack. I didn't change subject.

Someone points out that there is no connecting logic between "energy draining" and "nanobots" (which is obvious; do small devices have an intrinsic ability to drain energy at a distance due to their size?), so rather than admit defeat, he simply pulls out this completely unrelated rant about high SW weapon and power generation figures (ignoring the fact that Alderaan is an observation rather than a theory). Then he tries to attack my personal credibility with some old Trekkie fanboy-type arguments, which leads up to his triumphant claim that "Warsies" in general are unfair to fans of B5 (and this relates to the point about a cloud not necessarily being composed of nanobots ... how?).

Well, I observed in the episode, "Into the Fire" YR ships losing power inside the Shadow planetkiller, but I guess that doesn't really matter, right.And since we're on the subject of what is the composition of the Shadow Death Cloud, do you have a better explaination of what it is given what was observed in the B5 TV series and movie A Call to Arms than nanobots. I don't know what else they can be. If you have an answer, I'm all ears.

Notice how he has reacted to a point he can't deal with: segue into an attack on me and all "Warsies", in a trollish attempt to incite a defensive reaction and hijack the thread. This guy must have learned to debate at spacebattles.com ...

Troll?!? I'm no troll. I'm just pissed that you understated the weapons capabilities of the B5 planetkillers.

[Enlightenment]

What subject change. I took the show at its word that the Shadow ships can drain ships of their power. Then this guys says, "that's against the laws of physics." Then I just reminded him Star Wars routinely breaks the laws of physics. I was only responded to an attack. I didn't change subject.

'This guy' = me.

Given that I said nothing about Wars technology, your long rant about the implausibility of Wars power use was nothing but a red herring.

do you have a better explaination of what it is given what was observed in the B5 TV series and movie A Call to Arms than nanobots. I don't know what else they can be.

Argument from ignorance. Just because you don't know better doesn't mean something is true.

If you have an answer, I'm all ears.

Shifting the burden of proof. You made the claim that the SPK is made of nanobots, you provide the evidence. You must support your claim, it is not up to anyone else to disprove it.

[Crossover_Maniac]

What subject change. I took the show at its word that the Shadow ships can drain ships of their power. Then this guys says, "that's against the laws of physics." Then I just reminded him Star Wars routinely breaks the laws of physics. I was only responded to an attack. I didn't change subject.

'This guy' = me.

Given that I said nothing about Wars technology, your long rant about the implausibility of Wars power use was nothing but a red herring.

The main point was you were applying real world physics to the Shadow Planetkiller dispite the fact that in the episode "Into the Fire", it was clearly stated the YR ships were losing power while inside the Death Cloud:

Lorien: Quickly.

[Cut the projection/point in space/"elsewhere" shatters into tiny fragments, and Sheridan and Delenn are back aboard the White Star]

Lennier: Look! The Shadow cloud doesn't show up on our instruments.

[Ivanova cuts in on the Intercom/radio]

Ivanova: Captain, can you receive?

Sheridan: Ivanova, did u see it? Did the rest of the fleet hear what they said?

Ivanova: We did, but then the cloud came up all around us, getting through no matter what we do.

Marcus: Picking up thousands of missiles all around us. Extreme cold has shut down the jump engines, not just ours, the entire fleet. Estimate we have ten minutes before the temperature drops below that which we can survive.

Since they ships operate in space with their own internal power source, the cold in space shouldn't be a problem for them unless their ships were losing power and heat (it takes a lot more than ten minutes for a ship to radiate heat into space). This is what was observed during the episode.

do you have a better explaination of what it is given what was observed in the B5 TV series and movie A Call to Arms than nanobots. I don't know what else they can be.

Argument from ignorance. Just because you don't know better doesn't mean something is true.j

You're right. So what if the Death Cloud isn't composed of nano-machines. It still drains a ship of its power and heat energy, freezing the ship, its equipment, and its crew. The particles (whatever they are) still moves with the rest of the structure (it doesn't disperse and spread out in all directions and manages to move with the missiles and superstructure).

If you have an answer, I'm all ears.

Shifting the burden of proof. You made the claim that the SPK is made of nanobots, you provide the evidence. You must support your claim, it is not up to anyone else to disprove it.

I didn't know what sort of material could have all of the properties of the Shadow Death Cloud, so I assumed it was composed of nanobots. I was just asking if anyone knew if there was something else that fit the description of the Death Cloud particles.

[Enlightenment]

The main point was you were applying real world physics to the Shadow Planetkiller dispite the fact that in the episode "Into the Fire", it was clearly stated the YR ships were losing power while inside the Death Cloud:

Careful. Straw men of that size have been known to spontainously ignite.

Demonstrate where I said that the SPK cannot 'drain power.' I said that nanobots cannot drain power. Since I do not accept that the SPK is a cloud of nanobots this statement does not imply or suggest that the SPK cannot 'drain power.'

You're right. So what if the Death Cloud isn't composed of nano-machines. It still drains a ship of its power and heat energy, freezing the ship, its equipment, and its crew.

Relevance?

The particles (whatever they are) still moves with the rest of the structure (it doesn't disperse and spread out in all directions and manages to move with the missiles and superstructure).

And how does this 'prove' that the cloud consists of nanobots?

I didn't know what sort of material could have all of the properties of the Shadow Death Cloud, so I assumed it was composed of nanobots.

Nanobots are not magic. Even though we can't build nanobots today they are constrained by physical principles. No possible nanobot could accelerate to velocities useful for space travel. No possible nanobot could suck power out of something at a rate significantly faster than would be possible by conventional heat transfer.

The only way to fully explain the SPK's observed features is to appeal to the B5 equivalent of Trek technobabble: telepathic metaphysics.

[Crossover_Maniac]

The main point was you were applying real world physics to the Shadow Planetkiller dispite the fact that in the episode "Into the Fire", it was clearly stated the YR ships were losing power while inside the Death Cloud:

Careful. Straw men of that size have been known to spontainously ignite.

Demonstrate where I said that the SPK cannot 'drain power.' I said that nanobots cannot drain power. Since I do not accept that the SPK is a cloud of nanobots this statement does not imply or suggest that the SPK cannot 'drain power.'

You said it within this thread.

The only way to fully explain the SPK's observed features is to appeal to the B5 equivalent of Trek technobabble: telepathic metaphysics.

Straw man my ass.

[Enlightenment]

You said it within this thread.

[Crossover_Maniac]

What confession? You claimed you never said the SPK cannot drain power and then you said within the same thread the SPK was the B5 equivalent of Trek technobabble. You just took my post out of context. I confessed to nothing.

[Shadow WarChief]

The new "address" of spacebattles.com is

http://66.33.6.87

It exists as it always has, only with the new address now. Spacebattles.com is still fubared

[Enlightenment]

What confession? You claimed you never said the SPK cannot drain power and then you said within the same thread the SPK was the B5 equivalent of Trek technobabble.

Ignoratio elenchi. (Translation: the supporting evidence presented is irrelevant to the conclusion.)

And the word is concession. It's short hand for 'you lost, try to do a better job next time.'

[SPOOFE]

You claimed you never said the SPK cannot drain power

He never said that.

He said that your proposed interpretation of the SPK's operation couldn't work.

You're assuming that your interpretation is the only accurate one. Given B5's propensity for telepathy-related metaphysics, I find Enlightened's interpretation - if not realistic - to be the most consistent.

[Darth Wong]

B5 isn't really my thing (I've only mentioned it a couple of times in my entire website), but "Crossover Maniac", you should try to realize that "Enlightenment" is kicking your ass. The fact that you refuse to admit this only makes it look worse.

After observing this thread, your only argument seems to be: "the SPK drains energy therefore it is made of nanobots". Everyone else is saying "that is a leap in logic". You simply repeat your original statement (without realizing that A doesn't necessarily lead to B) and then hurl strawmen left, right, and centre in order to distract everyone.

When we start building nanobots (and we will), they will not have any magical energy-draining abilities that larger-scale machines did not have. Conversely, if we could design a device to drain energy at a distance, there is no reason to imagine that it would have to be small. How do you know the SPK didn't have some giant device in its centre which created an energy-damping volume-effect, hence the darkness, which would be consistent with EM energy absorption?

[SirNitram]

However, if the Shadow Death Cloud is maintained at a low temperature, and wraps around the YR ships, the YR ships will radiate heat into the cloud.

The only way the SPK ('SDC') could sink heat out of ships at a higher rate than normal space losses would be for the SPK to be dense enough that conduction and/or convection came into play. A cloud that dense, however, would have other characteristics that the SPK did not have, such as atmospheric effects around lights, turbulence around moving ships, and quite possibly (depending on the particle size) an abrasive sandpaper-like effect on all those oh-so-shiny B5 hulls.

Eh? Alright, lemme give a better example, I don't think I'm being clear.

In space, there is near zero radiation of heat. This is because you need matter to conduct the heat away from you.

The Death Cloud, however, being of near-Atmosphere-like density, will strip heat away like a really cold day. To understand what I mean by the power of a cold atmosphere, strip naked and walk around in Antartica.

...Okay, don't, but understand that's what I'm getting at. Atmosheres will strip heat away from metal very quickly, especially when compared to hard vacuum, a starships normal range of operations.

[Carcharodon]

We've been here before.

Hypermatter.

Hypermatter, and hypermatter.

The cross-section of the Death Star from the SW ICS suggests that whatever this stuff is, it doesn't take up any appreciable volume of space. Attempts to attack Star Wars power generation and firepower figures with red herring arguments are nothing more than disguised ploys to change the subject. No more hypocritical than a "hyperspace tap," I should say. Can you draw me a schematic of that?

Moreover, the VPKer really isn't that impressive. Yes, it can destroy planets. In one episode (I don't know the title), we see the Vorlon fleet cruising through the remains of one of its victims. The rate at which things are expanding suggests that the planet killer only imparts enough energy to shatter a planet at barely escape velocity, probably something in the E32-E33 range. This would make it about a million times less powerful than the DS1, never mind the DS II, which must have been far more powerful considering its size. A well-shielded planet like Alderaan could probably survive such a hit. This topic has been discussed before elsewhere. For the original archive, see

http://pub28.ezboard.com/ftigerclawssci ... ID=2.topic

And if we accept the Jedi Academy Trilogy as evidence, a barely-functioning, rickety prototype of the first Death Star that was never intended to actually be used could fire considerably more often than every 16 hours. On page 291 of Champions of the Force, we have this:

"The Death Star fired again, and the superlaser beam curved around, bent even more severely in the deep gravity well; but this time the gunner compensated. The blurred fringes of the beam actually struck the Sun Crusher and knocked it spinning out of control.
Any other ship would have been vaporized instantly, but the quantum armor plating protected the superweapon-just barely."

They were firing every couple hours, possibly every few minutes, in that book.

[adam warlock]

Moreover, the VPKer really isn't that impressive. Yes, it can destroy planets. In one episode (I don't know the title), we see the Vorlon fleet cruising through the remains of one of its victims. The rate at which things are expanding suggests that the planet killer only imparts enough energy to shatter a planet at barely escape velocity, probably something in the E32-E33 range. This would make it about a million times less powerful than the DS1, never mind the DS II, which must have been far more powerful considering its size. A well-shielded planet like Alderaan could probably survive such a hit. This topic has been discussed before elsewhere. For the original archive, see

the first planet that was known to have been destroyed by the vpk is arkada 7. a probe was sent there and found no trace of it whatsover..

size unknown.

then we have ventrad iii colony.. size again wasnt indicated...scene shown of vpk moving through huge debris.. possibly from a planet.

*assuming* both planets to be of similar size (arkada and ventradi), then the huge rocky debris the vpk was shown to go through couldw just well be part of an asteroid field (not orginally a planet).

or the vpk made a rush job of it, or that it was a considerably larger planet.

only upper limit we know is given by b5 wars.

[Enlightenment]

Eh? Alright, lemme give a better example, I don't think I'm being clear.

Let me rephrase what I said. Fundamentally I agree with you. Surrounding the ships in a suitably dense cloud of cold gas would cool them faster than in empty space. There's not enough data on B5 ship thermal output to make a judgement on how much gas and at what velocity it would need to be moving to freeze a ship dead, but the general concept is fairly workable.

However, a gas cloud dense enough to have a significant cooling effect would make itself known in other ways including atmospheric flares around ships' lights and turbulent wakes behind moving ships. Some scouring action might also be expected against exposed shiny surfaces and windows. There should also be convection currents leading away from the ships' radiator surfaces as the gas recirculated to remove heat from the ships and dump it at the outside of the cloud. None of these effects were present in the ItF SPK. As such I believe the possibility that the SPK is composed in part by a gas cloud can be ruled out due to a lack of supporting evidence.

Again, a gas cloud would duplicate part of the SPK's behavior, but it is not consistant with the SPK's other attributes. I stand by my assertion that the SPK is nothing but a field of metaphysics.


To leap out of the B5 universe for a minute, it's very likely that the SPK visual effect was generated using a Lightwave's fog feature--a feature designed in essense to roughly simulate the look of a cloud of gas. However, this fog feature is extremely simple and renders something that is pretty close to unphysical and as such really can't be fully explained by real-world physics.

[Xuenay]

My point, the Shadows could...given a kick in the pants to unstagnate them...design ships much superior to the designs used against the Younger Races that have no weakness to Telepaths.

Probably. But this begs the question, is there a reason why they should do so?

Keep in mind that the Shadows' purpose was to spread chaos. Purposefully leaving a few design flaws in their ships for the younger races to exploit isn't as out of the question as it might seem at the first glance. If some of the races thought that they could destroy Shadow vessels, it might cause them to keep waging a war even if they were losing... no doubt causing a rift between their ranks over whether they should try to fight or just stay out of the way, thus spreading more chaos. Or it could lead to somebody uniting the races in a war against the Shadows (like Sheridan did) since they thought this gave them hope, only to have the alliance eventually fall into ruin when it turned out that this advantage just wasn't enough (this is what would most likely have happened hadn't the Shadows and the Vorlons been persuaded to leave on their own), again creating chaos.

And even if you left some flaws, it wouldn't really matter in the long run anyway, since even with the flaws, the ships of the younger races would be many times weaker than yours. Sure, you could be beaten in a few fights, even take heavy losses in others, but what difference would that make? The ships are just that - tools for creating chaos, and their pilots aren't even Shadows themselves. If you really needed to win, just bring in a fleet large enough so the enemy wouldn't have any chance of winning.

This flaw would probably have been much more dangerous in a battle against other First Ones, but the Vorlons and Shadows hadn't ever engaged each others directly before the Shadow War shown in B5, so it wasn't really an issue when designing the Shadow ships (who knows how long ago).

[Typhonis 1]

One more thing about the Beast Planet from Shadow Raiders is that it fired a single shot from near the systems sun,after a few seconds of travel time,about 20 or 30,it struck its target ,said target was near the orbit of where the fifth [planet in the system was about where Jupiter is in our system ,it blew up a moon sized warship with a single shot,that is scary.Downpoints are they never tell how far away the target is but a quoyte from the show states "why did they blow it up from halfway across the system?""to show that they could"

[SirNitram]

Enlightenment:

I dunno, I'm just going by what was said: When in the Cloud, they were too cold to use the jump drives. Apparantly the Cloud is very conductive to heat, or jump drives have a tiny operating range. The Death Cloud is a strange and bizarre object.

[adam warlock]

This flaw would probably have been much more dangerous in a battle against other First Ones, but the Vorlons and Shadows hadn't ever engaged each others directly before the Shadow War shown in B5, so it wasn't really an issue when designing the Shadow ships (who knows how long ago).

the last engagement between the firstones (shadows and vorlons included) was during the kirishiac war.. AFAIK (and IIRC) the war lasted close to a million yrs and in the end was responsible for most of the first ones leaving the galaxy..

(someone correct me if im wrong)

[Crossover_Maniac]

B5 isn't really my thing (I've only mentioned it a couple of times in my entire website), but "Crossover Maniac", you should try to realize that "Enlightenment" is kicking your ass. The fact that you refuse to admit this only makes it look worse.

After observing this thread, your only argument seems to be: "the SPK drains energy therefore it is made of nanobots". Everyone else is saying "that is a leap in logic". You simply repeat your original statement (without realizing that A doesn't necessarily lead to B) and then hurl strawmen left, right, and centre in order to distract everyone.

I believe I already dropped that argument. I already said, "it's not nanobots." All I'm saying is the death cloud does drain energy from YR ships. Right now, I don't care if it's nanobots or some chemical that the SPK sprays out, I'm not going to argue over that.

When we start building nanobots (and we will), they will not have any magical energy-draining abilities that larger-scale machines did not have. Conversely, if we could design a device to drain energy at a distance, there is no reason to imagine that it would have to be small. How do you know the SPK didn't have some giant device in its centre which created an energy-damping volume-effect, hence the darkness, which would be consistent with EM energy absorption?

[Crossover_Maniac]

Moreover, the VPKer really isn't that impressive. Yes, it can destroy planets. In one episode (I don't know the title), we see the Vorlon fleet cruising through the remains of one of its victims. The rate at which things are expanding suggests that the planet killer only imparts enough energy to shatter a planet at barely escape velocity, probably something in the E32-E33 range. This would make it about a million times less powerful than the DS1, never mind the DS II, which must have been far more powerful considering its size. A well-shielded planet like Alderaan could probably survive such a hit. This topic has been discussed before elsewhere. For the original archive, see

the first planet that was known to have been destroyed by the vpk is arkada 7. a probe was sent there and found no trace of it whatsover..

size unknown.

then we have ventrad iii colony.. size again wasnt indicated...scene shown of vpk moving through huge debris.. possibly from a planet.

The size of Alderaan wasn't indicative either, but we all assume it was approximately the size of Earth anyway.

*assuming* both planets to be of similar size (arkada and ventradi), then the huge rocky debris the vpk was shown to go through couldw just well be part of an asteroid field (not orginally a planet).

or the vpk made a rush job of it, or that it was a considerably larger planet.

only upper limit we know is given by b5 wars.

We have a scene of a VPK powering up its main gun, the scene switches to the intelligence briefing where the statement about the planet being gone is made, and then you see VPK flying through the debris field. OTW: the planet was destroyed. BTW: Darth Wong, care to make some corrections to your essay on the planet killers, as in placing the VPK into the Planet Destroyer catagory.

[Brian Young]

I don't believe a probe was sent to the planet to confirm destruction.
What DID happen was that Ivonova asked CnC to monitor that sector for transmissions. She then reported that the planet was destroyed.
But then we learn that the Vorlons "blanket all frequencies" before they attack. So, B5 CnC wouldn't have gotten any transmissions from the planet when the Vorlons showed up, or afterwards because everyone was dead.
Then, we learn that the VPK left "survivors on the ground." That statement has been debated as much as any other in B5 canon. What is so difficult to understand about it? Ivonova said that survivors reported massive destruction on a planetary scale. There goes the stupid idea that they later wanted to evacuate these people from worlds they had evacuated to. If they had already evacuated, how did they know about the massive destruction???
Ivonova said they needed medical ships. There goes the stupid idea that they later wanted to evacuate these people from worlds they had evacuated to. If they had evacuated before the attack, why do they need medical ships? After a flood, do you send in the ambulances to the peope who ran for higher ground before the waters peaked???
The word "survivor" means that they survived the attack. She didn't say they needed help moving refugees!
They had to "evacuate survivors from the ground ." She also talked about refugees, but at this moment she was talking about the survivors on the ground.
And Ivonova told people to wait for clearance to return to a planet after an attack. Why would they want to go back if the planet wasn't there???

Yes, there was an asteroid field, *in another episode*. That asteroid field was not the remains of a planet. The rocks were moving much too slowly the have achieved escape velocity from a planet.

Guys, no matter how much you want it, the evidence shows that the VPK does not destroy all life on a planet. And since some people wanted to return to their planet, the VPK doesn't make the planet uninhabitable.

[Shadow WarChief]

I don't believe a probe was sent to the planet to confirm destruction.


Then, we learn that the VPK left "survivors on the ground."

Never, in respect to the vorlons attacking planets, were the words, "survivors on the ground" used. Where are you getting that from?

Ivonova said that survivors reported massive destruction on a planetary scale. There goes the stupid idea that they later wanted to evacuate these people from worlds they had evacuated to. If they had already evacuated, how did they know about the massive destruction???

If the people on the Titanic had already gotten off the boat, how did they know about the ship sinking???

answer for both cases: They SAW it

Ivonova said they needed medical ships. There goes the stupid idea that they later wanted to evacuate these people from worlds they had evacuated to. If they had evacuated before the attack, why do they need medical ships? After a flood, do you send in the ambulances to the people who ran for higher ground before the waters peaked???

Yes Ivanova said they needed medical ships, not necessarily medical ships for those who saw the vorlon planet killers. There was a mild little conflict going on at the time named the shadow war. I'm sure you remember the Shadows attacks against the younger races, and how they intentionally were leaving wounded so that they could gather them all up in one area and take them out at the same time? They most certainly would have needed medical ships.

The ambulances aren't for the people who got to higher ground before the flood came, it's for the people over the hill who had the mafia shoot up main street.

The word "survivor" means that they survived the attack. She didn't say they needed help moving refugees!

Survivors does not necessarily mean they survived the actual event. People are said to have survived the sinking of the Titanic without ever having touched the water.

People are said to have survived the destruction of the twin towers even though they got out before the first building collapsed.

Survivors does not entail that they actually went through the event the catastrophe was named for.

They had to "evacuate survivors from the ground." She also talked about refugees, but at this moment she was talking about the survivors on the ground.

Could you please give me an episode name for where you're getting this "survivors from the ground" quote?

And Ivonova told people to wait for clearance to return to a planet after an attack. Why would they want to go back if the planet wasn't there???

Wait for clearance to return to a planet after an attack.....from what? Giant hamsters. Invisibly pink unicorns. shadow raids perhaps? She did not say wait for clearance to return to a planet that was attacked by the vorlons.