Injecting tactics into RPGs?

[Gunhead]

I think there is a lack of good tactics in RPGs for two reasons:

1: The typical program nerd doesn't know tactics from lawnmowing.

2: If, by chance, you did get a game designer who could actually apply real tactics, your lone warrior or small party would get fucking owned so fast the only sound you'd hear would be your sphincter tearing in psychosomatic response.

Enemies have to be somewhat nerfed in ability & smarts to allow a single PC or small group to make any advancements at all, really.

I think number two wouldn't even be a bad thing. Hell, I'd welcome any computer RPG where tackling 20 bad guys by your lonesomes is going to end up badly. For you. It would force players to team up if they're going to raid that den of orcs and grab their treasure. Which would in turn go someways in preventing massive hoarding, since you'd need to dig up those 10-20 or so co-players that are willing to take part in the raid, who also will be taking their share of the spoils.

This is what really bugs me about computer RPGs. You get enough "levels" or whatnot, and you can wipe the floor with dozens opponents at a time.
It's less annoying if it's really part of the game, but when it creeps into games that are supposed to be even a bit realistic it sucks.

-Gunhead

[Julhelm]

Anyone of you tried Silent Storm and it's expansion Sentinels?

It has a skill/level system that doesn't boost your men to ridiculous superhero-levels (like traditional D&D-derived systems) and indeed is heavily reliant on sound tactical thought by the player. For instance, a GPMG is equally powerful regardless of who is using it - Levels and skills only improve things like the AP cost of firing/reloading and general accuracy and never the power of the weapon itself.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Personally, I'd rank Silent Storm as one of the worst offenders, especially when you compare it to Jagged Alliance 2's system. At 1st level in SS, your guys literally can't throw a grenade across the street. They don't get all superheroic at high level, it's true, but that's just because they start with the ability of an 8 year old. Compare to JA2 where a mercenary might start with a 76 out of 100 in a skill and end with 85 or 90 tops.

[Julhelm]

Well, I find that in SS, ranges in general seem very scaled down, so in that regard I figure the nade ranges make sense. I've never seen any of the regular classes being able to throw nades further than 10m, with the exception of the grenadier class.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Yeah, but now you're justifying one broken system by its consistency with another. Anyway, ranges are fine with higher level characters, which is why I think they should have just done away with the leveling system and started characters at a decent level of competence to begin with, a la JA2.

[Julhelm]

Yeah, Cannon Fodder did pretty much what you're describing, and it was very playable and addictive.

Is there any clear reason why devs are so fond of the D&D-style (lvl1 = infant, lvl10 = competent, lvl20 = godlike) leveling system in rpgs?

[Stark]

Personally, I'd rank Silent Storm as one of the worst offenders, especially when you compare it to Jagged Alliance 2's system. At 1st level in SS, your guys literally can't throw a grenade across the street. They don't get all superheroic at high level, it's true, but that's just because they start with the ability of an 8 year old. Compare to JA2 where a mercenary might start with a 76 out of 100 in a skill and end with 85 or 90 tops.

This is really the problem, as others have mentioned. If you have a game where you start off with the ability of a retarded four year old and end up a literal tank shaking off rockets and killing armies, OF COURSE that game will lead to stupid events. If your game has fixed abilities, people decry it as 'boring' or 'lacking progression'.

[Vendetta]

Yeah, Cannon Fodder did pretty much what you're describing, and it was very playable and addictive.

Is there any clear reason why devs are so fond of the D&D-style (lvl1 = infant, lvl10 = competent, lvl20 = godlike) leveling system in rpgs?

Reward structure.

Increasing PC power is a tangible reward for completing gameplay tasks.

[General Zod]

Yeah, Cannon Fodder did pretty much what you're describing, and it was very playable and addictive.

Is there any clear reason why devs are so fond of the D&D-style (lvl1 = infant, lvl10 = competent, lvl20 = godlike) leveling system in rpgs?

Reward structure.

Increasing PC power is a tangible reward for completing gameplay tasks.

There's no reason to do so in such a retardedly linear fashion. Legend of Zelda has a nicely developed system (even though it's not a technical RPG) for skill advancement, where you gain the ability to take more damage, but you only really gain more power if you learn new skills or acquire more powerful weapons with no grinding involved. That and the fact the interface is much more interactive than your typical "passive" RPG, are big areas that "traditional" role-playing games can learn from.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Honestly I think that part of the problem is magic. Now, I love magic. I cant play an RPG without it (it is the escapist element. I spend my life studying reality, sometimes I just want to escape in every possible way) And while it is easy to drop say, hitpoints, down to realistic levels, the simple fact is, a spellcaster is going to fuck a person up so fast it isnt even funny. Normal combat tactics become near irrelevant when an unarmed man can call down the wrath of the universe itself.

It makes games without unrealistic levels of durability nigh unplayable

[Hotfoot]

Honestly I think that part of the problem is magic. Now, I love magic. I cant play an RPG without it (it is the escapist element. I spend my life studying reality, sometimes I just want to escape in every possible way) And while it is easy to drop say, hitpoints, down to realistic levels, the simple fact is, a spellcaster is going to fuck a person up so fast it isnt even funny. Normal combat tactics become near irrelevant when an unarmed man can call down the wrath of the universe itself.

It makes games without unrealistic levels of durability nigh unplayable

Well now that depends on the type of magic available. Even D&D magic wouldn't be that badass if you toned down the effects some.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Honestly I think that part of the problem is magic. Now, I love magic. I cant play an RPG without it (it is the escapist element. I spend my life studying reality, sometimes I just want to escape in every possible way) And while it is easy to drop say, hitpoints, down to realistic levels, the simple fact is, a spellcaster is going to fuck a person up so fast it isnt even funny. Normal combat tactics become near irrelevant when an unarmed man can call down the wrath of the universe itself.

It makes games without unrealistic levels of durability nigh unplayable

I don't think that necessarily follows. You can adjust the damage of spells according to durability no matter what it is. I find this comment especially strange coming from you, since you've played more mages in Tensided than anyone, and Tensided doesn't feature any HP progression.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Honestly I think that part of the problem is magic. Now, I love magic. I cant play an RPG without it (it is the escapist element. I spend my life studying reality, sometimes I just want to escape in every possible way) And while it is easy to drop say, hitpoints, down to realistic levels, the simple fact is, a spellcaster is going to fuck a person up so fast it isnt even funny. Normal combat tactics become near irrelevant when an unarmed man can call down the wrath of the universe itself.

It makes games without unrealistic levels of durability nigh unplayable

I don't think that necessarily follows. You can adjust the damage of spells according to durability no matter what it is. I find this comment especially strange coming from you, since you've played more mages in Tensided than anyone, and Tensided doesn't feature any HP progression.

You can tone down the magic damage effects. And the tensided system is very good in terms of the balance between mages and sword slingers (at least until a mage is as powerful as Valarian got prior to the end... where he was then was at the point where he could probably engage dozens of our starting characters at once if he was prudent)

But the system was very very contrived and while the game play was good, it was off in the sense that it treated magical attacks in the same way it treated a sword, which makes no sense to me. Ex. Plate Mail should offer no protection against a fire spell, or ice, and the resistance value of the armor should be reduced against piercing damage. Spells could ignore armor, but that was an additional, expensive effect which was not strictly necessary...

[Hotfoot]

But the system was very very contrived and while the game play was good, it was off in the sense that it treated magical attacks in the same way it treated a sword, which makes no sense to me. Ex. Plate Mail should offer no protection against a fire spell, or ice, and the resistance value of the armor should be reduced against piercing damage. Spells could ignore armor, but that was an additional, expensive effect which was not strictly necessary...

Okay, in all honesty, you're just wrong. First off, just because metal is a good conductor doesn't mean you suddenly take more damage from a fire or ice attack from wearing plate, much less the same damage you'd get from being naked. Secondly, it's not like the metal is in direct contact with the skin over most of the body. There's a thick layer of padding underneath to cushion blows.

Even considering the thermal conductivity of metal, you still have to heat up the steel/iron/bronze before you can even think of heating up the flesh underneath, so it would absorb damage coming in. It's not a perfect conductor, hence why you can forge the stuff.

To test this yourself, get an electric stovetop. Put your hand on it. See how long it takes you before the heat gets so bad you can't stand it anymore. Now put a pan over a different heating pad and put your hand on the pot. See how long that takes. Now do the same thing on a third heating pad, but put a potholder over the pan, and put your hand on that. See how long THAT takes. You should notice a general increase each time.

[Alyrium Denryle]

But the system was very very contrived and while the game play was good, it was off in the sense that it treated magical attacks in the same way it treated a sword, which makes no sense to me. Ex. Plate Mail should offer no protection against a fire spell, or ice, and the resistance value of the armor should be reduced against piercing damage. Spells could ignore armor, but that was an additional, expensive effect which was not strictly necessary...

Okay, in all honesty, you're just wrong. First off, just because metal is a good conductor doesn't mean you suddenly take more damage from a fire or ice attack from wearing plate, much less the same damage you'd get from being naked. Secondly, it's not like the metal is in direct contact with the skin over most of the body. There's a thick layer of padding underneath to cushion blows.

Even considering the thermal conductivity of metal, you still have to heat up the steel/iron/bronze before you can even think of heating up the flesh underneath, so it would absorb damage coming in. It's not a perfect conductor, hence why you can forge the stuff.

To test this yourself, get an electric stovetop. Put your hand on it. See how long it takes you before the heat gets so bad you can't stand it anymore. Now put a pan over a different heating pad and put your hand on the pot. See how long that takes. Now do the same thing on a third heating pad, but put a potholder over the pan, and put your hand on that. See how long THAT takes. You should notice a general increase each time.

To be honest I was thinking more about the arming doublet underneath than the metal itself. It is a thick layer of typically non-flame retardent padding. It may insulate against cold, but that shit is catching on fire if a mage uses something like a fireball... (of course this depends on the spell...some spell effects may not be conducive to setting alight combustibles.)

I will however amend the position. It should not offer the same protection against certain damage-based attacks.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

I don't think that necessarily follows. You can adjust the damage of spells according to durability no matter what it is. I find this comment especially strange coming from you, since you've played more mages in Tensided than anyone, and Tensided doesn't feature any HP progression.

You can tone down the magic damage effects. And the tensided system is very good in terms of the balance between mages and sword slingers (at least until a mage is as powerful as Valarian got prior to the end... where he was then was at the point where he could probably engage dozens of our starting characters at once if he was prudent)

But the system was very very contrived and while the game play was good, it was off in the sense that it treated magical attacks in the same way it treated a sword, which makes no sense to me. Ex. Plate Mail should offer no protection against a fire spell, or ice, and the resistance value of the armor should be reduced against piercing damage. Spells could ignore armor, but that was an additional, expensive effect which was not strictly necessary...

You can also add penetration to a spell effect to help it get through armor, but I don't agree that armor should be no help at all to certain damage types for the reasons Hotfoot mentioned, which also apply to cold and corrosion. Entropy and electricity might be thought to intrinsically ignore armor (although the second only for metal armor without cloth padding underneath), and the final magic system will probably include some sort of bonus effect for damage types to better differentiate them.

Anyway, the Tensided system is not supposed to be balanced at higher power levels, because you can't have it both ways. Either magic is very impressive and a powerful caster can lay down some serious hurt, or a sword swinger can be just as powerful as the greatest of wizards and magic isn't impressive at all. Upping the ability to soak damage to preposterous levels in order to try and keep magic impressive and still maintain balance with non-casters is misguided. It's still not impressive because everything's relative, and you've given up a great deal of believability and internal consistency.

In a proper high-magic setting, there shouldn't be anything resembling balance between powerful casters and non-casters. In Tensided, the control is that the GM chooses how far someone can advance in magic depending on how much the campaign revolves around it. The Apprentices campaign was all about Valarian and Lenny, so there were no limits on their dumping XP into magic. The relationship between skill level and the number of strands you can weave is also adjustable between an arithmetic and geometric relationship depending on whether you're going for a high-magic or low-magic type of setting. Since this thread is about computer RPG design and not PnP, this part is getting a little off-topic, but the basic point is that you can't have your cake and eat it, too. Either magic is balanced and ho-hum or it's impressive and decidedly unbalanced, and you can have unbalanced magic and still keep things balanced overall by controlling access to magical skills, abilities, and merits even in a CRPG.

[Alyrium Denryle]

You can also add penetration to a spell effect to help it get through armor, but I don't agree that armor should be no help at all to certain damage types for the reasons Hotfoot mentioned, which also apply to cold and corrosion. Entropy and electricity might be thought to intrinsically ignore armor (although the second only for metal armor without cloth padding underneath), and the final magic system will probably include some sort of bonus effect for damage types to better differentiate them.

That would be a good idea. As it stands now, different energy types dont mean anything. Attacking someone with a wave of concussive force or with a blast of ice shards is exactly the same, and they shouldnt be. One imporvement I think that could easily be made is to scrap the penetration addition, and make it so that different damage types have inherent penetration values against different types of armor.

For example: Chain mail offers about as much protection from crushing damage as the padding under the metal links does. Maybe just a little more. So against chain mail armors there should be a penetration value inherent in each strand of crushing damage. Same goes for damage inflicted by a mace against a person in chain mail.

It makes more sense to do that (in a computer or PnP RPG) than it does to add all manner of additional modifiers that are independant of the type of damage.

Anyway, the Tensided system is not supposed to be balanced at higher power levels, because you can't have it both ways. Either magic is very impressive and a powerful caster can lay down some serious hurt, or a sword swinger can be just as powerful as the greatest of wizards and magic isn't impressive at all. Upping the ability to soak damage to preposterous levels in order to try and keep magic impressive and still maintain balance with non-casters is misguided. It's still not impressive because everything's relative, and you've given up a great deal of believability and internal consistency.

I agree, that section was a remark only.

[Imperial Overlord]

A number of systems work fine with magic and non superhuman durability. D&D is built around hp/resource attrition and its magic system works that way. Magic can be quite lethal in Dying Earth, but there are protections from it and it can be bungled (you do not want to bungle The Excellent Prismatic Spray). Shadowrun has the possibility of superhuman durability, but you don't have to have it to survive magic. Of course, magic is scaled upwards in a game with automatic weapons and cyberware. Mages (most players primary character) have good defences against magic in Ars Magica and it does take time to whip up a spell in that game and that may not be time a guy with a sword or bow will give you. Balance with magic is a matter of good design.

[PainRack]

Hmmm..... what about Oblivion levelling system? Other than the guards levelling, the mobs levelling at the same level as you are means they're always are a challenge(well, in hard mode). Playing at hard, its actually very interesting to play, well, once you installed the mods that give you +5 attributes and etc that remove the grinding and skill major/minor skills tweaking.

Also, I never tried the mods before, but aren't there multiple mods out there that increase the variety of monsters and frequency/numbers? its possible to run into troll packs and so on, which truly pose a real challenge and should mean fatality in hard mode.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

You mean the most hated leveling system in all of gaming?

Oblivion's cardinal sin wasn't the level scaling itself, since a lot of games have that, it's that your power didn't really go up with your level, and so if your character had some skills tagged that didn't make him better in a fight, the game would get harder and harder as you leveled with no corresponding reward. People ended up building their characters to avoid leveling, which you don't exactly see in other RPG's.

[PainRack]

You mean the most hated leveling system in all of gaming?

Oblivion's cardinal sin wasn't the level scaling itself, since a lot of games have that, it's that your power didn't really go up with your level, and so if your character had some skills tagged that didn't make him better in a fight, the game would get harder and harder as you leveled with no corresponding reward. People ended up building their characters to avoid leveling, which you don't exactly see in other RPG's.

lol.... my personal gripe with Oblivion levelling was the absurd tweaking and grinding it resulted in.... To be honest, I never really noticed the difficulty/power setting, since your equipment seriously overpowered you in any 1 on 1 fight. Well, unless I'm playing in hard mode.

[Thunderfire]

Anyone of you tried Silent Storm and it's expansion Sentinels?

It has a skill/level system that doesn't boost your men to ridiculous superhero-levels (like traditional D&D-derived systems) and indeed is heavily reliant on sound tactical thought by the player.

Maxedout SS-Characters are pretty bad. They get very powerfull at higher levels.