Sraw Rats. Star Wars made backwards? (Forwards?!)

[Chardok]

So, maybe it's been brought up before, but what if Lucas didn't write the PT the weekend before he started principal photography? What if, in fact he HAD written it back in ninteen seventy whatever, and decided to lay the groundwork for the series by shooting it in order? Lets discuss all aspects of the implications of such a ridiculously strange alternate universe. Let's say the script remains the same, right? But Lucas now has to shoot the PT using the same techniques he used to shoot the OT, and actors available to him at that particular point in time, and the ripple effect it would have through the ages.

Would it have been better or worse? Made more sense or less? Even more than that, would the OT (ep. 4, 5, 6) being shot some 20-odd years later have been better or more visually stunning (Having originally used CGI in this universe, rather than having them slapped on later) What about the toys? The Video Games? Would Star Wars have been successful at all? Also consider this: Would Harrison Ford be our Indiana Jones without the exposure he recieved in Star Wars and his solidification as the universe's #1 "Fuck You" man? Would Sir Alec Guiness even be recognizable to the mainstream of our generation? (Did you know he was in the Bridge Over the River Kwai? No? Well, he was, and a damn fine job he did, too) but I didn't know that until a few years ago and I would not have cared if I hadn't looked up the filmography of Sir Obi-Wan Kenobi)


So, dicuss/flame on!!!

[Dark Flame]

Without CGI Lucas would've had a very hard time showing the scale of the Clone Wars, the big armies, huge space battles, etc.

Also, the lightsaber combat in the PT would be very weak and boring. In the OT lightsaber combat was very slow and static, relatively speaking. This was explained away by saying that the only lightsaber combatants we saw were a half-man/half-cyborg, an old old Jedi, and a half-trained farm boy. Showing hordes of Jedi in their prime fighting in this style would have been extremely boring, IMO.

If the OT was made completely with modern techniques, I think Lucas would have shown more actual battles between the Rebels and the Empire. It would have still comprised the same story line, but there would be extra space and land battles thrown in. These battles could show how Rogue Squadron and Luke in particular came to be Rebel heroes, or they could highlight any Imperial atrocities to emphasize the fact that they are evil.

[Stormbringer]

If he started with the Phantom Menace, the series would have never progressed beyond that single movie.

[Havok]

If he started with the Phantom Menace, the series would have never progressed beyond that single movie.

Why? The dialouge was just as clunky as ANH and the story follows the same basic arc.

If TPM was the 1st....

Darth Maul is the new Boba Fett. Merchandising abounds!

The Sith and Jedi would have 20 more years of being writen about by crappy EU writers.

The lightsaber battles would progress over the movies the same, but instead of the Vader and Kenobi duel on the DS1 being lame, they would be uber-badass as old wisend, Jedi and Sith, warriors. The lightsaber duels in TPM would suck though.

The cult of Yoda wouldn't be quite as prevelant as it is today, probably replaced by the cult of Qui-Gon.

TPM Cast:

Obi-Wan= Mark Hamill
Qui-Gon= Alec Guiness
Padme= Carrie Fisher
Mace Windu= Harrison Ford
Captain Panaka= Richard Roudtree
Darth Maul= Bruce Lee
Palpatine Sidious= Peter Cushing
Chancellor valorum= Christpher Lee

[Stormbringer]

If he started with the Phantom Menace, the series would have never progressed beyond that single movie.

Why? The dialouge was just as clunky as ANH and the story follows the same basic arc.

Because, as Lucas acknowledged by making the 4th one first, it's easily the weakest part of the Star Wars saga.

The real trouble is that it doesn't really grab people as well as ANH did. It's not an epic struggle of good versus evil rather it's a story of wealthy corporate victim versus said corporation. Hardly the most gripping plot hook. The fact that said plot disappointed a lot of people today and is still roundly criticized is a mark against it.

Characterization is going to be a big problem if he started with TPM. Qui-gon carried the lead in this and he's dead. Obi-wan, while a fairly prominent character later on, in this one doesn't really come out of Qui-gon's shadow until very late in the movie. Padme is secondary, and Anakin is tertiary (and almost a non-factor MacGuffin) in no small part because he's a fucking child-actor KID! It would be hard to start so many important characters off in such small roles and then have them carry a trilogy. It worked in reality mostly because we already knew them from the OT.

Lastly, there is the problem with TPM being the most heavily littered with absurd juvenilia. From Jar-Jar to the Gungans to the pod racing eight year old the movie has a whole lot things that are stuck in their almost solely for kid appeal. That might be a problem in the long run in that making the much more serious later movies is going to run against it, even if it is a success.

[Havok]

If he started with the Phantom Menace, the series would have never progressed beyond that single movie.

Why? The dialouge was just as clunky as ANH and the story follows the same basic arc.

Because, as Lucas acknowledged by making the 4th one first, it's easily the weakest part of the Star Wars saga.

The real trouble is that it doesn't really grab people as well as ANH did. It's not an epic struggle of good versus evil rather it's a story of wealthy corporate victim versus said corporation. Hardly the most gripping plot hook. The fact that said plot disappointed a lot of people today and is still roundly criticized is a mark against it.

Characterization is going to be a big problem if he started with TPM. Qui-gon carried the lead in this and he's dead. Obi-wan, while a fairly prominent character later on, in this one doesn't really come out of Qui-gon's shadow until very late in the movie. Padme is secondary, and Anakin is tertiary (and almost a non-factor MacGuffin) in no small part because he's a fucking child-actor KID! It would be hard to start so many important characters off in such small roles and then have them carry a trilogy. It worked in reality mostly because we already knew them from the OT.

Lastly, there is the problem with TPM being the most heavily littered with absurd juvenilia. From Jar-Jar to the Gungans to the pod racing eight year old the movie has a whole lot things that are stuck in their almost solely for kid appeal. That might be a problem in the long run in that making the much more serious later movies is going to run against it, even if it is a success.

I was under the impression from the OP that we weren't just doing a transplant, but actually making the movie in 77. With Lucas just comming off American Graphitti and still in the same cynical mindset he had from THX1138, I doubt that he would even consider a character such as Jar-Jar, but since we can't just eliminate him, I would imagine he would be done completely differently.

As far as the economics in the movie go, that too would probably be eliminated, or given a far smaller roll. Coming off Vietnam had Lucas, as well as the whole country, in a different mindset. I would imagine that the stroy would alter itself to resemble waht A New Hope was.

Princess in peril, meet the heroes, break into the fortress and rescue the princess, meet the rebels, plan the attack, blow up the fortress.

Already, TPM resembles that. Changing the focus off the economics or polotics would be a small feat.

EDIT: The country was craving something new at this point in time, TPM would have filled this role just as well as ANH.

[Havok]

I am not familiar with child actors at the time... who would have made a good Anakin?

[Stormbringer]

I was under the impression from the OP that we weren't just doing a transplant, but actually making the movie in 77. With Lucas just comming off American Graphitti and still in the same cynical mindset he had from THX1138, I doubt that he would even consider a character such as Jar-Jar, but since we can't just eliminate him, I would imagine he would be done completely differently.

A different TPM may or may not have been a hit. But it's impossible to say because it wasn't made and we have no real idea what it would have been like. Lucas has clearly changed his mind of things numerous times since he first envisioned them, despite lies to the contrary, and so we're left largely making WAGs here.

Suffice to say, I think making a TPM like the one we saw wouldn't work. Now doing something broadly similar but with the details changed may well have. But I tend to agree with George Lucas' own opinion that the first part was not the strongest part of the story.

I am not familiar with child actors at the time... who would have made a good Anakin?

Then or now?

Good child actors are very, very hard to find at any time. Part of the reason Anakin as a kid had so very little screen time in a movie supposedly dedicated to the start of his story is that they didn't have a kid that could handle a larger role.

[Havok]

Well the point of the thread is to make WAGs, with our SW knowledge backing it.

Child actors from then.

[Chardok]

To clarify, this is actually forcing Lucas to make Ep. I, II, and III in '77, 79' and '82 respectively. (82 for Jedi, right? I think it was...maybe 83...anyway....) and IV, V, and VI, in 2001, 2003, and 2005 or whatever years they were.

Sorry for the fogginess. How old Was Rick Schroeder in 1977?

***just checked***

he was 7....(born in 70) So, he was a bit on the youngish side... I honestly cannot think of anyone from back then who could've pulled this off....

[Sarevok]

If the current PT was filmed in 1977 it would be a massive failure since it lacks brand name of Star Wars and modern CGI compensating for it's medicore plot.

But the Lucas and his team in 1977 were very talented to make films like Episode 4 and 5. I am sure they could still produce something incredible if told to start from Episode 1 rather than 4.

Or maybe they will just make the same triology but number it from 1-3 rather than 4-6.

[Battlehymn Republic]

Episode I was filmed with the expectation that most, if not all, people who watch it have seen the original trilogy. I really don't see how one could follow as well. Perhaps one day I will test this in an experiment on some kids.

Indeed, how about some alternate casting? Cannibalizing the the our-world SW cast is okay. Alec Guiness as Qui-Gon Jinn. Mark Hamill as Obi-Wan. Carrie Fisher as a spunkier Padme. Peter Mayhew as Jar Jar Binks. Lando Calrissian as Mace Windu. Or James Earl Jones as him. The guy who played the Emperor as Darth Sidious. The possibilities are endless!

[Dark Flame]

The guy who played the Emperor as Darth Sidious.

Umm they did do that.....

ROTJ cast and crew

TPM cast and crew

[Havok]

Episode I was filmed with the expectation that most, if not all, people who watch it have seen the original trilogy. I really don't see how one could follow as well. Perhaps one day I will test this in an experiment on some kids.

That is just fucking dumb. What is more difficult to follow;
A. A story that pics up in the middle and leaves its backstory in the shadows, OR...
B. A story that starts at the begining and leaves its backstory in the shadows.

If you can follow one you can follow the other.

Lando Calrissian as Mace Windu.

SHHHHHHHHHHH!!! Don't give the EU any ideas!!!

[Battlehymn Republic]

Episode I was filmed with the expectation that most, if not all, people who watch it have seen the original trilogy. I really don't see how one could follow as well. Perhaps one day I will test this in an experiment on some kids.

That is just fucking dumb. What is more difficult to follow;
A. A story that pics up in the middle and leaves its backstory in the shadows, OR...
B. A story that starts at the begining and leaves its backstory in the shadows.

If you can follow one you can follow the other.

Maybe I'm biased as someone who saw the OT first. (Then again, who didn't?) However, ANH seems better at introducing someone to the universe than TPM. Perhaps only "better" in an aesthetic sense. The story of Rebels vs. Empire seems more approachable than a slightly complicated plot involving a trade organization, a weakly defended planet, politicking, and so on.

[Szass Tam]

I voted better, but I think I took the question slightly differently. I assumed that if the PT was made first, they would improve the stories and characters to make them good, and then the OT would be made later but have the same story.

Palpatine's rise to power is a pretty damn interesting story, and certainly a lot more unique than stories of heroics, it's just that the method by which he gained power (manipulating business) is boring as hell. But the corruption of Anakin and the idea of evil lurking about, using democracies to obtain power is classic in a very modern sense, if that makes any sense. If RotS and the non Padme/Anakin parts of AotC were made into say a duology instead of dragging everyone through two hours of horrid exposition in TPM, the prequels would have been a lot better.

[ray245]

On the other hand...how would Ep4 be like if it was make in the modern time?

[Stark]

Tatooine would be full of Micheal Bay orange filters and slowmo?

[Marko Dash]

starting off at TPM would have probaly made for a weaker base.

but think how awesome the battles of hoth/endor would have looked!

[chitoryu12]

but think how awesome the battles of hoth/endor would have looked!

I personally found them to be fine. They could use a little polishing in areas where the effects were a little funny (bluescreen snowspeeder crash, anyone?), but aside from those they were extremely good, especially for the 80s and really don't need any higher levels of awesome.

[Darth Lucifer]

I am not familiar with child actors at the time... who would have made a good Anakin?

Noah Hathaway, better known as Battlestar Galactica's "Boxey."

[Chardok]

I Was thinking aboot it recently...and I think that I'm probably a bigger fan of the model shots than the CGI. I mean, you can really tell that CGI is CGI, but model phtgraphy (Minus the grey boxes) especially ala Episode IV, really gave that gritty, "real" feel to the various ships and vehicles....

Just my 2 gil.

[The_Last_Rebel]

How's this for a cast for then, with character changes:

Qui-Gon Jinn: Sean Connery (for a fast-paced lightsaber duel, you need someone much more athletic than Alec Guiness was at the time)
Obi-Wan: Harrison Ford
Anakin: Mark Hamill (for all 3-just try to pass him and Padme off as 15-year-olds)
Padme: Carrie Fisher
Mace Windu: Richard Roundtree
Palpatine: Ian McDiarmid
Shmi:Lady who played Beru in ANH, perhaps
Count Dooku: Peter Cushing
Darth Maul: Bruce Lee

Here's how to make a few things work:

Make Gungans and the battledroids larger than they were so they can just be costumes.
I'm not sure how you can pull off the podrace. Maybe they could use speeder bikes or airspeeders through Beggar's Canyon instead.

I don't see why you couldn't have big land battles like the one in TPM. Costuming a bunch of stuntmen and extras as Gungans, droids, Clonetroopers, Jedi, etc. wouldn't be any harder than outfitting them as Civil War, Napoleanic, Roman, Medieval, or even modern soldiers in an epic war movie.

Find a better material to make lightsaber shafts out of.

Lots of money.

What else?

[The_Saint]

Apart from taking the weakest story (The Phantom Menace) and removing the cgi which pretty much carries it. You now have film that if we include the Star Wars cost overruns and filming issues Alan Ladd, Jr. would probably have told Lucas to go shove it.

On the plus side the ROTJ space battle scene would have rivalled the opening for ROTS for "image filled with ships/fighters awesomeness", maybe just maybe with all the cg we could have gone to Nar Shadda to see Jabba's palace instead of returning to Tatooine and best of all... A New Hope could have had some better space battles.... ie more than three ships on the screen dog fighting....

Though like Chardok I do prefer the OT models to a lot of the PT cgi.

[Lex]

as a matter of fact, I also believe it would have been better...

As someone pointed out before, the rise of Palpatine to power is a great story, and had it been filmed in the late 70's, I strongly doubt Lucas would have made it as "childish" as he did with the real PT.

Then on the other hand, Ep. 4, 5 and 6 might have sucked and that would have blown, so to say