Bridge Design: Star Destroyer vs. Constitution

[AirshipFanboy]

I'm wondering what makes a logical bridge design for a big spaceship, and so I'm hoping a discussion will enlighten me.

1. Which Bridge design is more logical - the circular layout of the TOS Enterprise bridge, or the crew-pit style bridge of an Imperial Star Destroyer?

2. How efficient and logical are either of these layouts to begin with?

For the purpose of this thread, ignore Bridge follies not related to internal layout and the running of the ship (e.g. - exploding consoles, putting the bridge on the outside of the hull).

If you think that differences in technology, engineering, and mission profiles between the Connie and the ISD make direct comparisions unfair, please explain how.

[Bounty]

I always though the ISD bridge would benefit greatly from railings. That thing's just an accident waiting to happen.

As for practicality, both seem pretty good, if the crew are accustomed to them. They're essentially the same concept done different: the captain takes a central position from where he can relay orders to the crew members responsible for specific departments - the Imperials saw the need to put the captain physically higher, but beyond that, the idea's the same.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I tend to think that the crew compliment of the bridge is better on an ISD. It is only high ranking officers on a constitution. And while they are highly skilled this leaves each one doing multiple things at once a good portion of the time. An ISD on the other hand has a lot of crewmen, each one can specialize in a given task, thus lending itself to greater efficiency.

[Mr Bean]

Both are pretty imperfect

The Imperial design wastes alot of space, but the multi-level design is good in theory. The thing is they don't need enough room to drive a VW through there. The crew pits are nice in theory, keep your ship functions down where the captain can watch them, while fleet activities are on the second level. That separation is good, but poorly done.

The TOS design is too small and yet remains a big space waster, while you won't be able to fit a soccer game in the wasted space, you could still easly plop down a few foozeball tables in the wasted area.
The TOS design also lacks redundancy in crew stations, there's no space or seats for the relief com officer, or the relief anything else. Exactly one chair per station.

[Sidewinder]

I say the star destroyer's bridge is better designed-- lots of consoles for lots of crewmen to control lots of different systems.

The TOS design also lacks redundancy in crew stations, there's no space or seats for the relief com officer, or the relief anything else. Exactly one chair per station.

This problem was addressed in this fanfic.

"And here we are at the end of our tour, the bridge, the brain of the ship, if you will." It was strange how the formerly spacious bridge felt claustrophobic with so many people on it who shouldn't be there. "As you can see we're running a skeleton crew right now, we don't need many people on the bridge while we're tied up in spacedock." Tim took a step down into the command pit and stood in front of his chair with his back to the viewer and its image of the workbees scurrying back and forth in front of the ship. He turned around to face his charges and was relieved to see that none of them were touching anything. "Up here port, that's left when you're facing the bow, forward we have the ops area. During normal running only one of those four seats is filled. Port aft, behind you, is the engineering section, only the big console there facing forward is usually manned, we can actually run the ship for more than two weeks with no one in engineering from up here. Center aft is tactical and up here on the railing behind my chair is where the gunners sit. Unless we're in combat only tactical is manned, typically. Starboard aft is damage control, they run our shields, electronic countermeasures, point defense weapons, internal security etcetera. Starboard forward over here on my left is the sensors station, just like ops we can have up to four people up here but typically only one station is manned." He paused to catch his breath and then tapped his chair, "As you may have already guessed this is where I sit, with the first officer on my right and an open spot here on my left for whoever might need it. Finally right in front of the view screen is the helm and navigation, port and starboard respectively."

This time it was T'prin who had a question, "There appears to be more bridge stations than is typical in a starship, even one of the Typhoon's size."

"And you're correct ma’am; there are twenty eight stations on the bridge."

"Why is that?"

Tim was certain she already knew the answer, maybe she was just asking him the obvious before on the reporters got to it. "Division of responsibilities ma'am. On a Galaxy a single officer is responsible for all tactical systems on the ship, twelve or fourteen phaser arrays, depending on the mark, a pair of torpedo launchers, the shields, and all damage control. Since the Galaxies aren't intended to be warships and to only rarely engage in direct combat that's sufficient, however the Typhoon's purpose is combat, and her tactical systems are far more numerous. With seventy two phaser arrays, twenty four torpedo launchers, and three shield grids a single tactical officer would be overwhelmed, so we spilt things up. The tactical officer hands off targeting assignments to the individual gunners who are either given a zone to protect or to go ship to ship. This allows us to effectively target many more enemy vessels than we would otherwise. Also the damage control functions and defense systems have been handed off to a separate defensive systems officer. By reducing the number of simultaneous tasks that each member of the bridge crew has to cope with we allow them to do the tasks they are assigned much more effectively. The new Titans have a maximum bridge crew of eighteen, we have a maximum of twenty eight, but neither of us are going to normally be anywhere near that, we only average twelve crewman on the bridge outside of combat, and only six while cruising at warp in friendly territory."

The writer wanks the ship to hell and back, but at least he had the right idea for a starship bridge.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I never understood why Star Destroyer captains rely on the view ports more than holographic projectors to display the surrounding battlefield. It doesn't afford enough information.

Also, if the ship gets hit or something and they are sent flying, it won't do the ship's captain any good to be dead because he broke his neck or something. Admirals I know have their chairs, but captains?

[AK-047]

I never understood why Star Destroyer captains rely on the view ports more than holographic projectors to display the surrounding battlefield. It doesn't afford enough information.

Also, if the ship gets hit or something and they are sent flying, it won't do the ship's captain any good to be dead because he broke his neck or something. Admirals I know have their chairs, but captains?

I always thought that the ECM in a full battle would shit up any electronic projections of the area around them. Also I believe that the captain has a seat, but likes keep an eagle's eye on his subordinates by peering down at them while walking around.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I always thought that the ECM in a full battle would shit up any electronic projections of the area around them. Also I believe that the captain has a seat, but likes keep an eagle's eye on his subordinates by peering down at them while walking around.

The ISD does have ECCM instruments I think.

And regardless, I have yet to hear of an instance that fire control radars get fouled up so badly one cannot even target the weapons with them. So regardless, there ought to be the usual standard sensors that give a rough idea of the battlefield.

[Starglider]

I always thought that the ECM in a full battle would shit up any electronic projections of the area around them.

There's always the backup option of using hundreds of visual-spectrum cameras scattered across the hull and having the computer integrate the results into a tactical display. It can't be defeated with anything that won't screw up naked eye observation even worse, and it's far more effective.

That said ECM is inherently less effective against passive sensors of any kind; anything additional radiation you spew out is itself a means of locating you, and unlike active scanning there's no enemy pulse structure to intefere with. Maybe you'll be able to exploit some flaw in the enemy hardware or software, or maybe you'll be able to white out or even burn out sensors with sheer radiative power, but decoys are probably a better bet.

[Mad]

There's always the backup option of using hundreds of visual-spectrum cameras scattered across the hull and having the computer integrate the results into a tactical display. It can't be defeated with anything that won't screw up naked eye observation even worse, and it's far more effective.

That said ECM is inherently less effective against passive sensors of any kind; anything additional radiation you spew out is itself a means of locating you, and unlike active scanning there's no enemy pulse structure to intefere with. Maybe you'll be able to exploit some flaw in the enemy hardware or software, or maybe you'll be able to white out or even burn out sensors with sheer radiative power, but decoys are probably a better bet.

That's probably already done: the most common short-range starship targeting computer sensor used in Star Wars is, after all, a glorified camera.

[Master_Baerne]

Also, if the ship gets hit or something and they are sent flying, it won't do the ship's captain any good to be dead because he broke his neck or something. Admirals I know have their chairs, but captains?

I always thought that the ECM in a full battle would shit up any electronic projections of the area around them. Also I believe that the captain has a seat, but likes keep an eagle's eye on his subordinates by peering down at them while walking around.

Captains have chairs. IIRC, Pellaon has one in Heir to the Empire.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Captains have chairs. IIRC, Pellaon has one in Heir to the Empire.

Where is it? I don't see any chairs in the movies.

[Darth Tanner]

Only Thrawn had a chair, and as he was a Grand Admiral who by that time was in charge of the entire show I'd imagine that no one was going to criticize him having it as not proper protocol.

The biggest weakness of the Star Destroyer design is that the captain and other senior officers don't have ready access to computer displays, they have to rely on their underlings doing everything and reporting back to them. They could really do with a holoprojector on the ceiling at the front or something to that effect.

The Star Trek bridge doesn't really have many problems, obviously its too small and has too few personnel stationed there but in regards to the Federations exploration mission and over reliance on automation
I'd say these were not the biggest killers in the command chain.

One point however is that they could really do with changing the place the security guards stand on the bridge as anyone coming up the turbo lift by default gets the jump on the guards!

Does anyone know how exactly the crew get in and out of the bridge pits? I've never seen a ramp or even a ladder.

[Master_Baerne]

Captains have chairs. IIRC, Pellaon has one in Heir to the Empire.

Where is it? I don't see any chairs in the movies.

I think it's at the back of the bridge, behind the camera in all the ISD bridge scenes.

[AirshipFanboy]

Both are pretty imperfect

The Imperial design wastes alot of space, but the multi-level design is good in theory. The thing is they don't need enough room to drive a VW through there. The crew pits are nice in theory, keep your ship functions down where the captain can watch them, while fleet activities are on the second level. That separation is good, but poorly done.

The TOS design is too small and yet remains a big space waster, while you won't be able to fit a soccer game in the wasted space, you could still easly plop down a few foozeball tables in the wasted area.
The TOS design also lacks redundancy in crew stations, there's no space or seats for the relief com officer, or the relief anything else. Exactly one chair per station.

Will a bridge with wasted space inhibit the running of the ship in any way? Granted, it is wasted volume, but those ships are really big anyway, so it wouldn't seem that wasting space in a single room would hurt them too much.

Also, what is a "relief officer?" Is it just a spare officer in case someone else important gets killed?

Does anyone know how exactly the crew get in and out of the bridge pits? I've never seen a ramp or even a ladder.

I searched in vain on The Star Wars Technical Commentaries for some sign of a ladder.

My hypothesis is that the crew pit floors are built like trampolines. When we're not looking, the bridge crew just bounce their way out and land on the excessively spacious walkways. That's probably why they don't have railings. If the Star Destroyer's crew tried to Xena-flip onto a walkway guarded with railings, they would probably hurt themselves.

[Mr Bean]

Will a bridge with wasted space inhibit the running of the ship in any way? Granted, it is wasted volume, but those ships are really big anyway, so it wouldn't seem that wasting space in a single room would hurt them too much.

It's part of the design mentality for warships. Would you like twelve foot tall vaulted ceilings? Or would you like a standard 7 foot tall ceiling with an extra three feet of armor plating above you head?

I know which one I'd pick.
The only reason to build something the size of a Star-Destroyer is because of some reason. Maybe you can't mount a certain engine on anything smaller, or this type of hyperdrive. In the star-destroyers case you build a big ship like that because you want it to be able to do everything. It's a battleship/carrier/troop ship. And trust me, trying to cram that many roles into the same ship, every wasted cubic inch of space can HURT.

Also, what is a "relief officer?" Is it just a spare officer in case someone else important gets killed?

Ok, lets say your a Damage control officer. It's your job to make sure the ship stays fixed and fly, and when it breaks, to coordinate repairs in battle and out of battle. To make sure people are following safety regs, and a host of other Damage control type jobs.

Can you do that job, 24/7, 365 days a year? No you can't, you need time out to eat, sleep, and preform various bodily functions.

You are not the only DC officer out there, in a modern Navy world, if your the head DC repairman there is someone to replace you should you die yes, but he's also supposed to be your relief, if your working twelve hour shifts he's pulling the other twelve hours of the day.

And given how complicated your job is, when he shows up at shift change-over, it's very unlikely you can just say, "Hey I'm off to get some rank time, have fun finding out what shit went wrong while you were alseep".

No you can't do that, you need to sit him down, go over any logs(On the computers of the SD of course) explain to him what shit be broken, and offer any suggestions you thought up.

If a particularly important thing breaks, it might be a good idea to have you BOTH in there working on it. So you can't just have one officer chair, you need a second, or at the very least a handy ledge nearby you can work at.

[AK-047]

From the bridge photos, it looks like all the consoles are built into the pit walls and that the upper rim of the pit overlaps the wall consoles. Perhaps during shift change the entire pit rises, closing off the displays and controls. When the next batch of bridge officers come, they all take their seats and the floor lowers into the pits, revealing the consoles on the wall.

[Mr Bean]

Oh on the Bridge put entrances thing.

There is a hatch in rear side of the pit. We don't ever see in the move because we don't ever get an angle of them looking into the pit from front, rather than from the rear, because all the shots are showing off the big bridge windows.

This is based off the Wraith squadron books, first one, an ISD get's it's window's blown in and vents it's air, it's noted the Captain(Who was in his Captain's chair) and everyone in the crew pit makes it out alive, but the one on the second tier are to close to the window to get to a hatch before being sucked out or trapped.

[AirshipFanboy]

It's part of the design mentality for warships. Would you like twelve foot tall vaulted ceilings? Or would you like a standard 7 foot tall ceiling with an extra three feet of armor plating above you head?

Well, I'd go for the smaller bridge; I don't see any good reason to put in a huge ceiling.

However, the size of the ship still diminishes the cost of the wasted space. They might be able to put quarters for an extra squad of stormtroopers in by lowering the ceilings a couple of feet, but with 9,700 troops already stored, that would only give them an extra half of a percent of their current complement.

Ok, lets say your a Damage control officer. It's your job to make sure the ship stays fixed and fly, and when it breaks, to coordinate repairs in battle and out of battle. To make sure people are following safety regs, and a host of other Damage control type jobs.

Can you do that job, 24/7, 365 days a year? No you can't, you need time out to eat, sleep, and preform various bodily functions.

You are not the only DC officer out there, in a modern Navy world, if your the head DC repairman there is someone to replace you should you die yes, but he's also supposed to be your relief, if your working twelve hour shifts he's pulling the other twelve hours of the day.

And given how complicated your job is, when he shows up at shift change-over, it's very unlikely you can just say, "Hey I'm off to get some rank time, have fun finding out what shit went wrong while you were alseep".

No you can't do that, you need to sit him down, go over any logs(On the computers of the SD of course) explain to him what shit be broken, and offer any suggestions you thought up.

If a particularly important thing breaks, it might be a good idea to have you BOTH in there working on it. So you can't just have one officer chair, you need a second, or at the very least a handy ledge nearby you can work at.

Duly noted. Thanks for the clarification.

[atg]

Only Thrawn had a chair, and as he was a Grand Admiral who by that time was in charge of the entire show I'd imagine that no one was going to criticize him having it as not proper protocol.

The biggest weakness of the Star Destroyer design is that the captain and other senior officers don't have ready access to computer displays, they have to rely on their underlings doing everything and reporting back to them. They could really do with a holoprojector on the ceiling at the front or something to that effect.

The Last Command and other Thrawn Trilogy books specifically mention Pellaeon sitting on a chair, and he does have a computer console.

e.g. p447-448 of The Last Command are an example. Also in Dark Force Rising Pellaeon reflexively attempts to key some orders into his computer console while the Chimaera's main computer is down.

[AirshipFanboy]

Its possible the command chair is added as some kind of refit. Or it could be installed by Imperial captains based on personal preference.

The Executor bridge, at least, didn't have one.

[Raesene]

Its possible the command chair is added as some kind of refit. Or it could be installed by Imperial captains based on personal preference.

The Executor bridge, at least, didn't have one.

Thrawn's chair in his suite (which could be similar to the captain's chair on the bridge) was connected to the ceiling. Picturehere

[Bounty]

How much time does a captain spend on the bridge anyway? If he's only needed for major operations and isn't expected to loiter around the command walkway for hours on end, the lack of a chair isn't really an issue.

[drachefly]

How are bridges arranged on real warships?

[Dark Flame]

How much time does a captain spend on the bridge anyway? If he's only needed for major operations and isn't expected to loiter around the command walkway for hours on end, the lack of a chair isn't really an issue.

Wouldn't the captain be on the bridge for standard navigational orders, communications, possible threat analysis, and other mundane everyday tasks? I realize that there are specialists for all these things, but someone has to be in charge of all of it, and he seems like the best choice.