[spaceaddict] Stupid Football hijack

[spaceaddict]

So wait, we're actually arguing over whether people should pity a person who was overpaid in an occupation that has no benefit whatsoever to society that bodyslammed and electrocuted dogs to death if they didn't win in matches where he had them try to kill each other? That's hilarious.

I would argue an NFL Quarterback or any other player has a positive effect on society.Define overpaid. If his boss wants to pay him x amount and he is in line with other quarterbacks,he is getting paid normally.
Just because it isn't in your realm of pay scale, doesn't mean he is overpaid. That said I think what he is accused of is horrible. He should go to jail if he is guilty. After he pays his debt to society he should have a chance to come back to the job he had before, if his employers allow him to do it.

[Dark Flame]

What does an NFL quarterback contribute to society? Does he really deserve $30 million in 5 years (I'd say that's a pretty good guess of a QB's salary, correct me if I am wrong)? Does he help people? Does he produce anything? Does he perform a service?

[Elfdart]

They provide entertainment, like actors, singers, etc.

[chitoryu12]

They provide entertainment, like actors, singers, etc.

I think the difference would be skill level. It takes more skill to convincingly lie and pull off the portrayal of other people and to sing well enough to make money off of it than it does to catch a ball, run in one direction, and jump on people.

That's the message I got, anyway.

[Dark Flame]

How much money does the average actor, singer, performer, etc., make? Considering that the NFL league minimun is half a million dollars yearly, I'd think that there are more actors out there that don't get that sort of money than NFL players. So NFL players are paid more, on average, than the average entertainer, hence they are overpaid.

[Havok]

What does an NFL quarterback contribute to society? Does he really deserve $30 million in 5 years (I'd say that's a pretty good guess of a QB's salary, correct me if I am wrong)? Does he help people? Does he produce anything? Does he perform a service?

Ask the fans of the New Orleans Saints if they have provided them with anything.

[Frank Hipper]

They provide entertainment, like actors, singers, etc.

I think the difference would be skill level. It takes more skill to convincingly lie and pull off the portrayal of other people and to sing well enough to make money off of it than it does to catch a ball, run in one direction, and jump on people.

That's the message I got, anyway.

How does it take more skill to act than to play sports with skill to the point that you can make a career of it?

Be specific.

[JLTucker]

I would argue an NFL Quarterback or any other player has a positive effect on society.Define overpaid. If his boss wants to pay him x amount and he is in line with other quarterbacks,he is getting paid normally.
Just because it isn't in your realm of pay scale, doesn't mean he is overpaid.

You do not think he is overpaid? He is fucking paid millions to throw a ball and run around. Sure they have to stay in shape and such, but the players certainly should not be paid as much as they are, especially when playing a game. This goes with any sport.

[Havok]

How much money does the average actor, singer, performer, etc., make? Considering that the NFL league minimun is half a million dollars yearly, I'd think that there are more actors out there that don't get that sort of money than NFL players. So NFL players are paid more, on average, than the average entertainer, hence they are overpaid.

I believe top flight actors are making upwards of 30 million dollars a film.

30,000,000.00 a FILM. 6 months of work. 30 mill.

An NFL player may make half a million a year, but they have been training since they were probably about 7 or 8. Risk serious injury and death every time the strap on a helmet. Many of them when thier carrers are over, which on average last 3-5 years, will have chronic pain and other bodily injuries due to thier playing days.

What is 3-5 times half a mill? For 20 years worth of blood sweat and tears.

On top of that, someone like Reggie Bush, will generate more revenue in a year than say even a Tom Cruise would, along with entertaining a much larger number of people.

Even signing a contract isn't a guarantee you will get anything. Several players have gotten injured and thier teams have tried to recoup the money from the contract. Charles Rogers is an prime example right now.

[Havok]

I would argue an NFL Quarterback or any other player has a positive effect on society.Define overpaid. If his boss wants to pay him x amount and he is in line with other quarterbacks,he is getting paid normally.
Just because it isn't in your realm of pay scale, doesn't mean he is overpaid.

You do not think he is overpaid? He is fucking paid millions to throw a ball and run around. Sure they have to stay in shape and such, but the players certainly should not be paid as much as they are, especially when playing a game. This goes with any sport.

I don't think NFL QBs are overpaid. Like Spaceaddict said, He is getting paid the top flight rate for his job at his position. Just because you don't like the fact that that number is in the millions and not the hundreds of thousands, means about squat.

[Dark Flame]

You're right. Also, I did some research after pulling numbers out of my ass, and it appears that the NFL minimum salary is not a hard-and-fast half-mil, it's based on Leaguewide Total Revenues.

Source

But my personal opinion is that NFL players, and actors and all other entertainers, are generally overpaid. Not all, but most are.

[Solauren]

With actors, it's not overpaid if there movies generally do amazingly. Some times, name power is more effective then advertisting.

The same if they are getting a percentage of the movies profits as there pay after a certain minimum, and the movie does insanely well.

However, with the case of professional atheletes, they are generally overpaid to play the sport. I have no problem with the money they might make as spokes people, but that's a seperate revenue.

[Havok]

With actors, it's not overpaid if there movies generally do amazingly. Some times, name power is more effective then advertisting.

If you don't think that name power works the same way in the NFL, you are an idiot.

The same if they are getting a percentage of the movies profits as there pay after a certain minimum, and the movie does insanely well.

THEIR.

However, with the case of professional atheletes, they are generally overpaid to play the sport. I have no problem with the money they might make as spokes people, but that's a seperate revenue.

So you are saying, that if an actor has a successful movie that makes him NOT over paid? But if Harrison Ford makes a bomb, he, all of a sudden, IS over paid.

What if a QB leads his team to a SB win, like Payton Manning. How about three, like Tom Brady. Are they now NOT overpaid? In the years when Manning or Brady don't win the SB they ARE overpaid?

That's a certain way to look at it I guess.

P.S. I apologize for helping to completely derail this thread.

[Havok]

You're right. Also, I did some research after pulling numbers out of my ass, and it appears that the NFL minimum salary is not a hard-and-fast half-mil, it's based on Leaguewide Total Revenues.

Source

But my personal opinion is that NFL players, and actors and all other entertainers, are generally overpaid. Not all, but most are.

I appreciate that thinking.
I hate when people put actors and singers on some sort of pedestal and lump pro athletes down in some sub standard category.
They either all get over paid or not. It is all entertainment. Hell, it is why we are all here.

[spaceaddict]

I would argue an NFL Quarterback or any other player has a positive effect on society.Define overpaid. If his boss wants to pay him x amount and he is in line with other quarterbacks,he is getting paid normally.
Just because it isn't in your realm of pay scale, doesn't mean he is overpaid.

You do not think he is overpaid? He is fucking paid millions to throw a ball and run around. Sure they have to stay in shape and such, but the players certainly should not be paid as much as they are, especially when playing a game. This goes with any sport.

Do you not undestand how much revenue these players generate?Hell I can throw a football and knock some people over but I can't play at the level required to win games.

[spaceaddict]

I would argue an NFL Quarterback or any other player has a positive effect on society.

You're not, though.

Define overpaid. If his boss wants to pay him x amount and he is in line with other quarterbacks,he is getting paid normally.

I'm saying almost all professional sports players are overpaid, what about the doctor that had to reset his leg after he dislocated it, and after it's all done and through, what has he done it for? Money and Fame, what does he have to show, what are essentially self-inflicted lifelong injuries that are going to affect any job performance he has after his football career.

Just because it isn't in your realm of pay scale, doesn't mean he is overpaid.

Good thing I didn't say everyone should have the same pay, that's a strawman.

After he pays his debt to society he should have a chance to come back to the job he had before, if his employers allow him to do it.

You see, there's our difference, I recognize that cruelty animals is one of the first indications of a sociopath with the capability to kill people. I also feel that animal abuse laws should be brought up to at least the current level as child abuse laws, child abuse laws would of course be raised by to an equivelant.

If I knew how to address each quote seperately I would. Since I don't, I will try it in a few paragraphs.Most NFL players are role models. There are glaring exceptions. Michael Vick has become one.There are so many kids who otherwise have nothing to look forward to other than the remote possibility to become a pro athlete. They get scholarships and every once in a while make it to the pros. If the pro sports weren't there these kids would have nothing legitimate to work for . In that sense pro athletes and pro sports have a positve effect on society.
If pro ahletes were truely overpaid the games couldn't support themselves. Thats the nature of capitalism.
I appologise if you make the kind of money a pro quarterback makes and know what it is like. If a doctor can fill 60,000 seats in a stadium at 60.00 to 125.00 per seat, then he/she should be paid accordingly.
I agree with you that Vick is most likely guilty. If he goes to jail for 12-18 months per his plea agreement, what other punishments should he have?
I believe he does have a right to pursue employment once he pays his debt.
As far as cruelty being a precursor to worse behavior, nobody has gone to jail for murder because they stuck a firecracker up a cats ass. I don't Vick should either.

[Edi]

I would argue an NFL Quarterback or any other player has a positive effect on society.Define overpaid. If his boss wants to pay him x amount and he is in line with other quarterbacks,he is getting paid normally.
Just because it isn't in your realm of pay scale, doesn't mean he is overpaid.

You do not think he is overpaid? He is fucking paid millions to throw a ball and run around. Sure they have to stay in shape and such, but the players certainly should not be paid as much as they are, especially when playing a game. This goes with any sport.

Do you not undestand how much revenue these players generate?Hell I can throw a football and knock some people over but I can't play at the level required to win games.

So what the fuck does that have to do with anything? If you actually use this thing called MERIT to judge things, professional athletes are not only overpaid, they are overpaid parasites, because compared to people such as doctors, nurses, engineers, police officers, firemen or garbage truck drivers, their actual contribution to society is limited to making a shitload of money for already rich people who own the teams and who pocket the revenues paid by the common folks. Why the fuck should that merit the kind of apologism you're engaging in? Provide a better argument than "He brings in shitloads of revenue", because that's rather a non-starter.

[Ghost Rider]

From here

[Edi]

If I knew how to address each quote seperately I would. Since I don't, I will try it in a few paragraphs.

You might also try for some fucking coherency instead of running all of it together.

Most NFL players are role models. There are glaring exceptions. Michael Vick has become one.There are so many kids who otherwise have nothing to look forward to other than the remote possibility to become a pro athlete. They get scholarships and every once in a while make it to the pros. If the pro sports weren't there these kids would have nothing legitimate to work for . In that sense pro athletes and pro sports have a positve effect on society.

Role models in some sense, but most of your post is bullshit. Many of the pro athletes are fucking pissporr role models given their asshole behavior, flaunting of their wealth, acting as if they are above the law and generally being fuckwits. That does not send a good message. Second of all, what the fuck is stopping these kids trying to go for a skilled trade like electrician, plumber, roofer or other professional that does NOT require an absurdly expensive college education? There's money to be made in those trades and it's a far better shot than some one in ten million chance of making it to pro athlete, and you can do that until you're 70, instead of just for a few years before their bodies give out, nor does it require the kind of substance abuse, steroids etc that are pretty much mandatory if you want to go to pro sports. Pick a fucking new argument, this line is useless.

If pro ahletes were truely overpaid the games couldn't support themselves. Thats the nature of capitalism.

Care to explain the argument contained in this drivel, or are you just typing whatever happens to come to your mind, hoping it would make sense? They are fucking overpaid compared to their actual positive value to society based on MERIT. The nature of capitalism has NOTHING to do with the arguments arrayed against you.

I appologise if you make the kind of money a pro quarterback makes and know what it is like. If a doctor can fill 60,000 seats in a stadium at 60.00 to 125.00 per seat, then he/she should be paid accordingly.

So, the only criterion you use is how much money the person can make for the already filthy rich owners. Gotcha. Now, what the fuck does that have to do with anything? This question was already asked? What's the positive contribution to society compared to what a doctor, nurse, engineer or an electrician does?

I agree with you that Vick is most likely guilty. If he goes to jail for 12-18 months per his plea agreement, what other punishments should he have?

The ones he is getting slapped with come to mind. He's proven himself untrustworthy in addition to being a complete fucking asshole, so why put him where he could potentially abuse his position and make money doing it?

I believe he does have a right to pursue employment once he pays his debt.

Yeah, he's free to choose whatever job he can actually get, but it is not his RIGHT to get back where he was. Being a pro athlete is a privilege, even if he worked for it, and unethical behavior of the sort he engaged in means that privilege can be taken away from him just like that. Next argument.

As far as cruelty being a precursor to worse behavior, nobody has gone to jail for murder because they stuck a firecracker up a cats ass. I don't Vick should either.

Maybe he should not go to jail for murder, but he sure as hell should go there for what he did and he sure as fuck deserves all of the punishment he gets. It's costing him tens of millions of dollars all told and he can go fuck himself. He brought it on himself, there's nobody else to blame, and moronic apologists like you make me sick to my stomach. Now kindly fuck off unless you have actual arguments to bring to the table instead of this drivel.

[spaceaddict]

Where is my last post? If I didn't know better I would think I am getting fucked because I pissed some dweeb off.

[Frank Hipper]

Where is my last post? If I didn't know better I would think I am getting fucked because I pissed some dweeb off.

It's there; your connection, the 2500+ lurker situation, or something else is fucking with how you're seeing the forums.

[spaceaddict]

Where is my last post? If I didn't know better I would think I am getting fucked because I pissed some dweeb off.

It's there; your connection, the 2500+ lurker situation, or something else is fucking with how you're seeing the forums.

Weird I still don't see it. I will back tomorrow morning to upset the status quo a little more.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Most NFL players are role models. There are glaring exceptions. Michael Vick has become one.There are so many kids who otherwise have nothing to look forward to other than the remote possibility to become a pro athlete. They get scholarships and every once in a while make it to the pros. If the pro sports weren't there these kids would have nothing legitimate to work for . In that sense pro athletes and pro sports have a positve effect on society.

So encouraging children to engage in a sport that in just the Highschool level can lead to lifelong problems, nevermind continuing into the NCAA and NFL, where they will almost certainly use steroids and suffer for the rest of their lives in pain and surgery is positive, I suppose by your standards making the Germans feel good about themselves made Nazi's respectable people?

If pro ahletes were truely overpaid the games couldn't support themselves. Thats the nature of capitalism.

What? No it isn't, the nature of capitalism is to gain goods or services for pay, and I feel that gridiron players are simply not worth more than the doctor who heals the stupid bastard after he and his friends shatter, fracture, and weaken their skeleton structure playing this game.

I appologise if you make the kind of money a pro quarterback makes and know what it is like. If a doctor can fill 60,000 seats in a stadium at 60.00 to 125.00 per seat, then he/she should be paid accordingly.

You see, popularity is not the equivelant of merit.

I agree with you that Vick is most likely guilty. If he goes to jail for 12-18 months per his plea agreement, what other punishments should he have?

The revocation of the entirety of his signing bonus rather than a portion, the removal of all awards he had aquired during his time in the NFL, and a minimum of five years in prison.

I believe he does have a right to pursue employment once he pays his debt.

I never said denying him the right to pursue employment, just the ability to pursue employment as a profession sportsman, you said it yourself, at this moment people view them as rolemodels for children, I don't want him as any kind of role model.

As far as cruelty being a precursor to worse behavior, nobody has gone to jail for murder because they stuck a firecracker up a cats ass. I don't Vick should either.

I do, in many cases of sociopathic the convicted generally admit or are found to have had a history of animal abuse. And I think that needs to have a much more serious punishmen t than it does, to discourage this 'first-step'.

[Elfdart]

They provide entertainment, like actors, singers, etc.

I think the difference would be skill level. It takes more skill to convincingly lie and pull off the portrayal of other people and to sing well enough to make money off of it than it does to catch a ball, run in one direction, and jump on people.

That's the message I got, anyway.

How many singers, dancers or actors have people trying to physically prevent them from singing, dancing and acting? To the point of beating the living shit out of them?

Besides, where commerce is concerned, something is worth whatever you can get for it, as long as you're not cheating the buyer. Some billionaire wants to pay a ridiculous amount of money for a Van Gogh (which looks like fingerpainting to me) as opposed to any other piece of canvas with paint on it? Who am I to complain?

[chitoryu12]

How many singers, dancers or actors have people trying to physically prevent them from singing, dancing and acting? To the point of beating the living shit out of them?

Aside from the fact that a certain figure skater would disagree with you, if a football player fumbles or gets tackled as he catches the ball, no biggie. People will groan a little, but nobody will care much unless he pretty much destroyed his team's chance of winning in that one moment. If the player is injured, no problem. The team can still go on to win and the player will likely return to the game eventually. Nobody thinks bad of a football player who messes up and if he gets bodyslammed, nobody will care much for it unless, once more, he ruins the team by doing it.

If an actor flubs his or her lines or trips on set, they have to spend time and money to reshoot. If he or she gets injured, production has to be halted until the actor recovers.

If a dancer falls or messes up a move, people will likely question his or her skill, especially the employers.

If a singer messes up a note or forgets the words, he or she will likely be mocked nationwide. Repeated mess-ups will likely cause people to question his or her singing ability, especially, once more, the employers.