'Realistic' weapons

[Ariphaos]

Could you explain this concept? I've not heard of it before.

In an ironic twist of fate, Wikipedia provides a less crackpot explanation than some other results on Google. It links to the arxiv paper here

I probably shouldn't use phase, so instead, imagine something like phase with normal EM charge on the X axis and mirror charge on the Y axis. The two don't interact, they see eachother as completely and utterly neutral, even though neutrons themselves will interact. Likewise, mirror matter would use mirror bosons, so the nuclear forces too would not interact.

It would thus only react with gravity, and possibly through a strange fifth force that whoknowshow would work (there are some mixing possibilities given in the articles linked that have since been discounted, at least partially).

So here we have a realm of an entire mirror - and likely very dark - Universe. Mirror stars might be responsible for some (but not many) black holes, etc.

Naturally, there would likely also be such a thing as conservation of mirror charge in such a Universe, and other fun annoying things like that. But it's fun to contemplate and play with.

I use it as something to drive the scarcity of the magitech in my setting. Most of the Universe is stuck with fusion and other mundane weaponry, relying on sponsoring a few individuals with the truly amazing stuff that actually allows M-AM drives and so on.

The californium grenade/cannon thing is really quite impressive; and this universe does have the necessary handwavium present to make it work, so I'll have to consider it as an ammunition type. For kicks, you know. :D

The californium hand grenade is quite feasible. If production of superactinide elements becomes a priority, californium will exist in quantity and people will put its rather exceptionally low critical mass to use.

[Winston Blake]

Well, I didn't mean use actual C4, but an in universe equvalent (C4 has 1.37 the power of TNT by the way, so it is powerful enough for EFPs)

Even still, such a weapon would be looked upon as though it is the rather dimwitted cousin of the family. Proper shaped charges would be preferred, given they can produce streams of metal at velocities of roughly 14km/s, but even that's not really going to cut it as a weapon on the battlefield.

HEAT charges aren't any more 'proper' than EFPs. They can be stopped by ERA and they're very short ranged - generally useless beyond a few times their own diameter. EFPs have poorer raw penetration, but they retain this effectiveness over far longer ranges (SADARM charges can destroy most tanks at ~150m).

The californium hand grenade is quite feasible. If production of superactinide elements becomes a priority, californium will exist in quantity and people will put its rather exceptionally low critical mass to use.

Assuming that by 'hand grenade' you mean 'completely not a hand grenade', in any setting without nuke-proof body armour/shields.

[Ford Prefect]

HEAT charges aren't any more 'proper' than EFPs. They can be stopped by ERA and they're very short ranged - generally useless beyond a few times their own diameter. EFPs have poorer raw penetration, but they retain this effectiveness over far longer ranges (SADARM charges can destroy most tanks at ~150m).

That they have greater range is totally irrelevant. They could have infinite range for all I care, but they'd still totally useless for defeating armour. And SADARM charges are able to defeat the top armour of most tanks which is, along with the rear, where the weakest armour is located.

Supposing the 'modern' equivalent from the advanced future of this setting existed, it would simply be an inferior choice to a gauss weapon, which will just throw penetrators around at hundreds of kilometres a second.

[Sea Skimmer]

150 meters provided you hit the tank on the roof of course, the ability of a small EFP to defeat the flank armor will depend on the model of tank. Medium weight MBTs like the T-72 or Chieftain might not have even 50mm of flank armor, while the 70 ton Abrams has more then twice that.

To give a rough example of the difference in performance, the RHA penetration of a hollow charge is in a large part related to its diameter. With a normal shaped charge the penetration will be from about six to ten times the diameter of the warhead. With an EPF design the same diameter charge will defeat no more then two to four times its own diameter. The large range of variance exists because the effectiveness of the charge depends a great deal on the precision of manufacturing, and you can also have a different weight of explosives and liner thickness in any given diameter charge.

Typical EFP warheads, used as off route mines or inside smart anti armor bomblets, weigh around 2lb and pierce about 100mm of armor. Significantly larger EFP warheads are very uncommon, because they don’t have much of any tactical purpose or specific advantages.

EPF velocity is in the range of 1,300-2,000 meters per second, the jet from a HEAT warhead is more like 10,000 m/s

[Winston Blake]

That they have greater range is totally irrelevant. They could have infinite range for all I care, but they'd still totally useless for defeating armour.

My point is that it doesn't really make sense to refer to them as the 'improper' 'dimwitted cousin of the family'. Do you agree or disagree with that point? They're a purposeful class of munitions in their own right. For example, consider that they punch through ERA far better than HEAT charges. Or that HEAT charges could have infinite penetration for all I care, but they'd still be totally useless in a SADARM-like role.

And SADARM charges are able to defeat the top armour of most tanks which is, along with the rear, where the weakest armour is located.

Did I say otherwise?

Supposing the 'modern' equivalent from the advanced future of this setting existed, it would simply be an inferior choice to a gauss weapon, which will just throw penetrators around at hundreds of kilometres a second.

It's wonderful that shaped charges would be useless in your pet setting, but that doesn't relate to the comparative usefulness of HEAT vs EFP.

[Ariphaos]

Assuming that by 'hand grenade' you mean 'completely not a hand grenade', in any setting without nuke-proof body armour/shields.

Nuke-proof bodies is more appropriate. At such low levels, the most lethal aspect is the radiation, so... anyone using them as such that is not being suicidal (intentionally or otherwise) will need to have a hardened biology.

Supposing the 'modern' equivalent from the advanced future of this setting existed, it would simply be an inferior choice to a gauss weapon, which will just throw penetrators around at hundreds of kilometres a second.

There is considerable advantage to be had in making use of the properties of various substances with less than ideal ferromagnetic characteristics. At range, a projectile is likely going to be striking an armored and angled surface that has equivalently considerable characteristics to the material that is able to move at such velocities through the atmosphere without disintegrating.

Alternatively, if the projectile is simply impossible or infeasible to defend against with armor, then vessels will be designed with multiple redundancy up the wazoo, and just let your ultratech rip through it like arrows through a gazebo.

You don't necessarily want a HEAT round or something similar in its modern incarnation, but you do need to deal with both of the above potential responses to your guns. A gauss rifle is going to have a hard time hitting a flat face, even if somewhat guided, because of the intended ranges involved. However, instead of a single hollow core, you might have a hollow ring that deformed appropriately on contact with highly angled armor, driving the primary projectile into the target and sheering a slice of it off, and you jest sort of carve away at your opponent that way.

[fusion]

New weapon type:


Induced gamma ray emission from hafnium, fairly scalable and can make H-bombs without fissile. link

[ThatGuyFromThatPlace]

One Idea I've heard (and toyed with some) is a sort of beam-riding slug where you take a bullet with a conical rear cavity full of Lithium Deuteride.

Shining a powerful enough laser on that depression causes the Lithium Deuteride to expand and propel the projectile, there are actually a lot of different materials you can use for propellant, but using a slightly more powerful laser and Lithium Deuteride turns your projectile into a ridiculously high-velocity fusion rocket with very messy end results.

Another advantage, is that if you don't happen to need the specific advantages of a fusion rocket, or have run out of ammo, Hey, you've got a nice laser cannon ready to be used.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Corona guns from one of Timothy Zahn's books. Short ranged weapons that produce an electric or plasma aura of some sort around the target, frying them all over to a depth of an inch or two. It's short range makes it a specialized weapon, used by agents and criminals; it's only advantage over more normal weapons is that it renders the body unidentifiable short of DNA matching. No skin, no eyes, no teeth, no ID cards left.

Smart bullets for use against unarmored targets that explode into shrapnel shortly before hitting a target; the damage of a shotgun, the range of a rifle.

As for stabilizing californium, at least some radioisotopes can be stabilized. AFAIK, it's only been done with gases; ( vague memory from non-expert warning ! ) a laser "interrogates" the particles, preventing their quantum uncertainty from growing large enough for them to decay. If you found some clever method that worked on solid matter, you'd have isotopes that stayed stable until the stabilizer was turned off.

[Ford Prefect]

My point is that it doesn't really make sense to refer to them as the 'improper' 'dimwitted cousin of the family'. Do you agree or disagree with that point?

We seem to have made an error in communication - I mean't the dimwitted cousin in relation to the weapons of the setting.

They're a purposeful class of munitions in their own right. For example, consider that they punch through ERA far better than HEAT charges. Or that HEAT charges could have infinite penetration for all I care, but they'd still be totally useless in a SADARM-like role.

Did I say otherwise?

You didn't say it at all.

And as it stands, there are top attack munitions that use HEAT charges; the BILL 2 uses a shaped charge, as does the Spike and FGM-148 Javelin.

It's wonderful that shaped charges would be useless in your pet setting, but that doesn't relate to the comparative usefulness of HEAT vs EFP.

What is this thread about? It's not about weaponry in the modern day. It's about weaponry in the science fiction future which I am developing as a story writing setting. I thought it would be obvious that I'm not talking about today.

[Ezekyle Abaddon]

Are the tech levels here on par with Kieth laumers Bolo universe because if they are I would suggest a hellbore type weapon as they seem to be scaleable from point defence weapons up to 200cm plus weapons that are capable of attacking targets in orbit.

[Pulp Hero]

A weapon that can be made with modern technology levels, based on the American Blu-108 submunition unit.
***
Wide Area Anti-Personnel Projectile Dispenser System (WAAPD System)
Aka "Hornet Bomb"
A dispenser that is dropped from a fighter, when it reaches a predetermined height from the ground it dispenses six containers that shoot out in different directions. The can shaped containers (which are lets say two feet long a piece) are covered in large caliber slugs(approx 12mm to 15mm), and the containers rotate, shooting out the slugs when they are pointed towards the ground.

The result is about 1500 square feet(in a retangular like pattern due to the flight path of the dispenser) of ground instantly, and near simaltaniously covered in large caliber slugs.

This weapon is not especially useful against armour or in built up areas, but imagine it against a tent FOB or infantry (or civilians ) moving in the open.

[Ford Prefect]

Are the tech levels here on par with Kieth laumers Bolo universe because if they are I would suggest a hellbore type weapon as they seem to be scaleable from point defence weapons up to 200cm plus weapons that are capable of attacking targets in orbit.

In a way, the Bolo universe is actually less advanced; 200cm Hellbores can hit targets in orbit, yes, though comparitively, the 30mm gauss weapons used by infantry suits are quite capable of doing the same. Of course, that same 200cm Hellbore is packing megatons of hot death, so it evens out.

Wide Area Anti-Personnel Projectile Dispenser System (WAAPD System)
Aka "Hornet Bomb"

I tend to use hornet and bee type names for missile swarm launchers; however, something like this actually exists in-universe, under the name 'steel rain'. It is more likely to be launched from some sort of mortar or such than a fighter, but seems likely that even capital scale versions exist, given the simplicity.

Shining a powerful enough laser on that depression causes the Lithium Deuteride to expand and propel the projectile, there are actually a lot of different materials you can use for propellant, but using a slightly more powerful laser and Lithium Deuteride turns your projectile into a ridiculously high-velocity fusion rocket with very messy end results.

Another advantage, is that if you don't happen to need the specific advantages of a fusion rocket, or have run out of ammo, Hey, you've got a nice laser cannon ready to be used.

It's certainly a novel idea which could potentially be useful from an emplaced position, such as surface-to-orbit defense. Of course, if you run out of ammo in this universe, you would actually be screwed: you might have an array of lasers, perhaps even quite powerful ones, but after you start shooting at targets above a certain size, they have the technology to bend away lasers (and technically other massless beam weapons, though I don't know any other forms of massless beam weapon so there you go).

Nuke-proof bodies is more appropriate. At such low levels, the most lethal aspect is the radiation, so... anyone using them as such that is not being suicidal (intentionally or otherwise) will need to have a hardened biology.

As I imagine that working with military equipment would tend to get quite radioactive (just generally, you know), and because actual personel do get something of a an upgrade to their wetware upon joining, bodies hardened against radiation seems almost a given.

A gauss rifle is going to have a hard time hitting a flat face, even if somewhat guided, because of the intended ranges involved. However, instead of a single hollow core, you might have a hollow ring that deformed appropriately on contact with highly angled armor, driving the primary projectile into the target and sheering a slice of it off, and you jest sort of carve away at your opponent that way.

That's not such a bad idea at all. I've wondered about perhaps giving gauss round some sort of guidance; there exists in universe a morphing form of matter that could potentially be used to alter the aerodynamic qualities of the round mid-flight, altering its vector. However, I also wonder whether that's feasible, given the velocities we're talking about.

[Winston Blake]

My point is that it doesn't really make sense to refer to them as the 'improper' 'dimwitted cousin of the family'. Do you agree or disagree with that point?

We seem to have made an error in communication - I mean't the dimwitted cousin in relation to the weapons of the setting.

Yes, there seems to be some kind of misunderstanding - to me, you appeared to be denigrating EFP and wanking HEAT.

Did I say otherwise?

You didn't say it at all.

Because it's irrelevant.

And as it stands, there are top attack munitions that use HEAT charges; the BILL 2 uses a shaped charge, as does the Spike and FGM-148 Javelin.

Also irrelevant. They don't do it from 150m away.

It's wonderful that shaped charges would be useless in your pet setting, but that doesn't relate to the comparative usefulness of HEAT vs EFP.

What is this thread about? It's not about weaponry in the modern day. It's about weaponry in the science fiction future which I am developing as a story writing setting. I thought it would be obvious that I'm not talking about today.

Like I said, you appear to be wanking HEAT over EFP for no reason. It's a trivial point and I don't know how it ballooned like this - what do you say we just drop it?

[Beowulf]

A weapon that can be made with modern technology levels, based on the American Blu-108 submunition unit.
***
Wide Area Anti-Personnel Projectile Dispenser System (WAAPD System)
Aka "Hornet Bomb"
A dispenser that is dropped from a fighter, when it reaches a predetermined height from the ground it dispenses six containers that shoot out in different directions. The can shaped containers (which are lets say two feet long a piece) are covered in large caliber slugs(approx 12mm to 15mm), and the containers rotate, shooting out the slugs when they are pointed towards the ground.

The result is about 1500 square feet(in a retangular like pattern due to the flight path of the dispenser) of ground instantly, and near simaltaniously covered in large caliber slugs.

This weapon is not especially useful against armour or in built up areas, but imagine it against a tent FOB or infantry (or civilians ) moving in the open.

It's hard to believe that you'd manage to get the containers to rotate fast enough to cause damage to infantry. Unless, of course, you've left something out, for example, a charge to propel the slugs. At that point, you might as well go with the simpler multi-point initiation EFP charges, in which case you get both anti-infantry capability as well as anti-light-armor capability.

Oh, and as far as Hellbores go, you only need a 50cm gun to hit orbital targets, and you still have megatons of power at that point.

[Pulp Hero]

It's hard to believe that you'd manage to get the containers to rotate fast enough to cause damage to infantry. Unless, of course, you've left something out, for example, a charge to propel the slugs. At that point, you might as well go with the simpler multi-point initiation EFP charges, in which case you get both anti-infantry capability as well as anti-light-armor capability.

(The idea is kind of hard to communicate verbally, if I could draw a picture it would much clearer.)

The containers fire the slugs via conventional means with powder. The rotation of the containers allows all the slugs to be pointed down at some point during flight.

[Beowulf]

(The idea is kind of hard to communicate verbally, if I could draw a picture it would much clearer.)

The containers fire the slugs via conventional means with powder. The rotation of the containers allows all the slugs to be pointed down at some point during flight.

With the short barrels dictated by such a configuration, you're going to need an explosive warhead instead of solid slugs. For a real life example (kinda), see the JP233 munition. If you really want to be using solid slugs, a multi-point initiation EFP would allow one to create a spray of small EFP slugs, or one giant one for anti-armor purposes.

[Pulp Hero]

(The idea is kind of hard to communicate verbally, if I could draw a picture it would much clearer.)

The containers fire the slugs via conventional means with powder. The rotation of the containers allows all the slugs to be pointed down at some point during flight.

With the short barrels dictated by such a configuration, you're going to need an explosive warhead instead of solid slugs. For a real life example (kinda), see the JP233 munition. If you really want to be using solid slugs, a multi-point initiation EFP would allow one to create a spray of small EFP slugs, or one giant one for anti-armor purposes.

Well, this is meant to be a kind of "out there" sci-fi weapon that I am trying to ground with some engineering. And compared to an EFP weapon, like a Blu-108 which fire fours EFP skeets that go over a certain area and fires them when they detect a valid target, my WAAPD system indiscriminately coats an area in anti-personnel firepower.

I don't want to debate this to the point where each of us is a brick wall, I'm just throwing out concepts I've mused about to see what sticks.

***
Other suggestions:

WP landmines.

Area denial weapon: WP crystals that are contained in a insensitive material which requires some force to keep it maintained (electrical current, cold, etc). That when deployed, the material deteriorates, exposing the cystals, which are touch sensitive.

[Ender]

Keep in mind that there is no difference between a plasma gun, particle beam, and relativistic slugthrower. Once your kinetic energy exceeds your binding energy, you just have a very tightly collaminated particle beam.

[Ford Prefect]

Like I said, you appear to be wanking HEAT over EFP for no reason. It's a trivial point and I don't know how it ballooned like this - what do you say we just drop it?

I would have thought that my dismissal of HEAT charges would have diffused this sort of situation before it began, but no matter. I'm happy to drop it.

Keep in mind that there is no difference between a plasma gun, particle beam, and relativistic slugthrower. Once your kinetic energy exceeds your binding energy, you just have a very tightly collaminated particle beam.

Woah, it's Ender! I haven't seen you around in some time.

I've not really considered plasma weapon and particle weapon as two different things. In general, I might have groups/people/companies use the term 'plasma lance' or 'plasma beam' in relation to a what is clearly your bog-standard particle cannon, but this is generally a character-driven decision.

As for sublight munitions, I will always like the description given in The Killing Star: roving atom smashers pointed at worlds.

[Sea Skimmer]

White Phosphorus land mines already exist, if that’s what you meant by WP.

The result is about 1500 square feet(in a retangular like pattern due to the flight path of the dispenser) of ground instantly, and near simaltaniously covered in large caliber slugs.

This weapon is not especially useful against armour or in built up areas, but imagine it against a tent FOB or infantry (or civilians ) moving in the open.

If you want an anti personal system then why are you bothering with using EFP slugs? They would be incredibly ineffective against personal and soft targets. They have way higher velocity and mass then you need to kill someone or damage soft equipment, so the result is you aren’t going to get nearly as many man killing projectiles as you might otherwise have from the same weight of material.

You need nothing more complex then a cluster bomb filled with fragmentation bomblets, the USAF has developed a whole slew of dedicated AP cluster bombs, but now favors weapons with multipurpose effects.

The BLU-24/B bomblet for example weighed just 1.6 pounds with .26 pounds of Cyclotol explosive. Most of the rest of the weight was taken up by 300 pre formed fragments, basically small steel razor blades. 640 of these bomblets could be placed inside a single cluster bomb casing, and a single fighter bomber could cover several hundred acres with death if loaded with those cluster bombs.

It’s just too easy to kill people for exotic solutions to make sense. If you want have to use an anti personal weapon that conforms to real technology, then the less you say about it, the better.

[Vehrec]

More exotic weapons!
Ammo-generating rifle. Feed any solid or liquid mater into the hopper, and the gun's high powered compression units generate near-neutronium densities that are then rapidly loaded and fired out of the coilgun. Generates massive amounts of heat, and requiresa lot of power. However, so long as you can generate enough energy and keep shoveling dirt into it, there's no way to run out of ammo.

AM-scattering submunittions are used to disperse Anti-mater very rapidly, causing large fireballs as it annilates in an uncontroled fashion. ASlthough the release is two dimensional, the effects are often unpredictable. Dangerous to use in built up areas because of this.

Short range plasmathrowers are relatively simple to make, although military versions are either hotter, denser or longer ranged. The effective range of these weapons against power armor however is measured in tens of meters.

[Ford Prefect]

AM-scattering submunittions are used to disperse Anti-mater very rapidly, causing large fireballs as it annilates in an uncontroled fashion. ASlthough the release is two dimensional, the effects are often unpredictable. Dangerous to use in built up areas because of this.

It seems like a waste of antimatter, really. Why bother with wasteful, uncontrolled reactions when you can have a more efficient micro-missile armed with an amat warhead?

Short range plasmathrowers are relatively simple to make, although military versions are either hotter, denser or longer ranged. The effective range of these weapons against power armor however is measured in tens of meters.

If a weapon needs to get within tens of metres to do damage to a suit of powered armour, something is very, very wrong. Admittedly, the plasma could just be dispersed by a suit's electromagnetic control.

However, the 'unlimited ammo' gun is funny. You could have a pair of men/robots desperately shovelling stuff into it in an attempt to keep the bullets firing.

[Teleros]

...oh yeah, starstrafing. Build a dyson swarm. Aim it at another star system's planet. Win. More appropriately, it exists in a form of a web of mirrors that act as a sort of battery, scattered about the star system. 300 yottawatts at your disposal anywhere you want or need it. In Solar Storms the primary purpose for such a web is to make sure the crews of silverships behave. Store up 300 YJ for long enough and all their magical defenses and maneuverability really don't matter anymore. Hell, an ISD can't withstand a focused blast from a star.

Prefer Doc Smith's "Sunbeam" - no need to recharge the batteries .

Another little baby from Doc Smith - the "X-plosive bullets" used in the Skylark series. They used the metal "X" as the catalyst in a clean matter-to-energy conversion of ordinary copper. Went off more like a conventional explosion than a nuclear one. Best bit, it could be scaled up no end: a Mark 1 bullet was like a HEAT round (possibly worse: one brought down the "wing" of a large palace on Osnome when fired inside), a Mark 5 knocked over 2 men 900yds away with its shockwave, and a Mark 10 would vaporise several of the big flying battleships on Osnome at once. Physically the bullets were of identical shape too, meaning a single weapon could fire any of them.
Now granted I doubt your universe has the technobabble to make those things, but something similar would certainly have its uses - be it blowing up bank safes to special ops work.

[Ariphaos]

Prefer Doc Smith's "Sunbeam" - no need to recharge the batteries ;)

That's not the purpose of the web.

The purpose of the web is to provide a framework where energy can be tapped relatively quickly, in large amounts, from any point in the star system. The quickly part is key - you need to be able to react to something that can hop in at nearly any point inside your star system, giving you a few minutes' warning at best (I don't use SW-style hyperspace in my setting but something similar in strategic scope, if ultimately much more limited).