[spaceaddict] Stupid Football hijack

[Dark Flame]

Is it even possible to argue that one profession is tougher than another? They are both difficult in different ways. It's comparing apples to oranges here, and it's a stupid argument.

Singing/acting is hard because of the embarresment potential, sports are physically hard, to the point where you just want to fall down and not move, ever. I've done both at the high school level, admittedly not the msot challenging level in the world, but I have done both. Neither of them are easy, they are just very very different.

[Lost Soal]

So what the fuck does that have to do with anything? If you actually use this thing called MERIT to judge things, professional athletes are not only overpaid, they are overpaid parasites, because compared to people such as doctors, nurses, engineers, police officers, firemen or garbage truck drivers, their actual contribution to society is limited to making a shitload of money for already rich people who own the teams and who pocket the revenues paid by the common folks. Why the fuck should that merit the kind of apologism you're engaging in? Provide a better argument than "He brings in shitloads of revenue", because that's rather a non-starter.

I think the best, and possibly only, argument that can be made for merit is in the form of subsidiary jobs. In this case stadium personnel such as ticket vendors, confectionery sellers, souvenir vendors and security. If the Athletes are pulling in enough people to fill the stadium then far more people are needed to fill these subsidiary roles. I would argue that it also increases manufacturing jobs for making the souvenirs and shirts, except I strongly suspect that they are all shipped off to China or Taiwan.

[Alexandrov]

How many singers, dancers or actors have people trying to physically prevent them from singing, dancing and acting? To the point of beating the living shit out of them?

Aside from the fact that a certain figure skater would disagree with you, if a football player fumbles or gets tackled as he catches the ball, no biggie. People will groan a little, but nobody will care much unless he pretty much destroyed his team's chance of winning in that one moment. If the player is injured, no problem. The team can still go on to win and the player will likely return to the game eventually. Nobody thinks bad of a football player who messes up and if he gets bodyslammed, nobody will care much for it unless, once more, he ruins the team by doing it.

If an actor flubs his or her lines or trips on set, they have to spend time and money to reshoot. If he or she gets injured, production has to be halted until the actor recovers.

If a dancer falls or messes up a move, people will likely question his or her skill, especially the employers.

If a singer messes up a note or forgets the words, he or she will likely be mocked nationwide. Repeated mess-ups will likely cause people to question his or her singing ability, especially, once more, the employers.

Magically, continued mess-ups will cause sports owners, coaches and fans to question to ability of the player. It isn't much different.

[Elfdart]

When was the last time thousands of fans of a movie star or singer attended a concert or red carpet premiere, booed them merciliessly and chanted "YOU SUCK!" ?

Pro athletes get booed, heckled, pelted with garbage and are subjected to all kinds of verbal abuse from fans and media alike -even when they don't fuck up. It's such a regular part of what they do that's it's seldom noteworthy.

[Darth Mortis]

I would like to qualify this by saying I am an NFL fan and I own season tickets, I like the entertainment.

Now, there will be a time when the NFL, MLB, and the NBA price themselves out of fucking existance (see the NHL circa 2004).

The players unions for these sports are too powerful. Why the fuck should you receive a guaranteed contract for 120 million dollars when there is a chance that you will blow out your arm the very first game of the first season? I mean it's a stupid policy. If anything, pro atheletes should all get a base salary based on how many years you have participated in the league, with applied bonuses for going above and beyond the normal level of play.

Let's say the base is 250,000 dollars (a fair amount since the NFL generates about 2 billion dollars per year in revenue). If you perform at a level that is vastly superior to your peers, perhaps you receive a 2 million dollar bonus for that season (or .5% of team revenue) if you fail to hit average performance requirements, you get no bonus.

This will never happen, but in ten years when it will cost the average american family 1200 dollars to go to a game, then the NFL will fail. If you think about it, let's go over what it cost today to attend a game.


Tickets $55 x 4 = 220 dollars plus tax
Parking $20
Beers 4 x $8 = $32
Soda 4 x $6 = $24
Hot Dogs 4 x $5 = $20
Jersey 2 x $95 = $180

So, essentially it costs about 500 dollars to go to a game, 300 if you don't buy your kids a jersey. That's already stressing out a middle class family, much less the average 60k household around Cleveland. And I'm not taking into account PSL's (Personal Seat License) and other assorted misc fee's the Browns slap on me, for instance I play for preseason games even though I do not attend them.

It cost me, and I am not exaggerating, about 2500 dollars a year to own 2 season tickets for the Cleveland Browns.

How can this not fail eventually?

To some it up, the rising salaries are taxing us, the fans, not the owners who will continue to reap the rewards of our buying power until we can't afford to go to games. A strategy that will fail when they hit the threshhold of the buying power of the average american.


Just my incoherant 2 cents.

[SCRawl]

I would like to qualify this by saying I am an NFL fan and I own season tickets, I like the entertainment.

Now, there will be a time when the NFL, MLB, and the NBA price themselves out of fucking existance (see the NHL circa 2004).

The players unions for these sports are too powerful.

At the very least, the NFL got a salary cap with teeth a few years ago. That's the sort of thing that the unions fight against tooth and nail, because the overall effect is to drive salaries down. It also drives the market value of the teams up, of course, which is another reason why the owners want them.

Why the fuck should you receive a guaranteed contract for 120 million dollars when there is a chance that you will blow out your arm the very first game of the first season? I mean it's a stupid policy. If anything, pro atheletes should all get a base salary based on how many years you have participated in the league, with applied bonuses for going above and beyond the normal level of play.

Pretty much all contracts of significant amounts are insured, or at least they used to be. If a player is injured in the course of his work (i.e. on the field, or in practice, or something related to his on-field performance) then the policy pays for most of his salary. I think that the salary stops counting against most caps in most systems while the player is on IR, though I can't say that I'm an expert in the intricacies of the various sports' CBAs.

(Also, the NFL almost never gives out guaranteed contracts these days. This is why they tend to be heavily front-loaded with "signing bonuses". A player can be cut at any time.)

Do I wish that athletes' salaries were a little more sanely priced? Sure, but I wish the same thing for CEOs of huge companies, and I think that my wishing will have just as much effect.

{Snip}
How can this not fail eventually?

If they stop making money, or start making less money, they'll cut back on ticket prices. Do you really think they'd cut their own throats. The only real problem: who gets to go to the games? If the game tickets start costing way too much money, then only the upper tiers of our society will get to go to the games. From the owners' point of view, that isn't a big problem, as long as they get their money. If advertising money starts to dry up because of lack of fan interest, due to their inability to attend games -- something I think won't happen in my lifetime -- then they'll start to have to change their strategies again.

To some it up, the rising salaries are taxing us, the fans, not the owners who will continue to reap the rewards of our buying power until we can't afford to go to games. A strategy that will fail when they hit the threshhold of the buying power of the average american.

The owners of professional sports franchises price themselves according to the market value of their product, and they always will. If they find that they're overpriced, they'll come down. If you think that they should come down in price in order to provide a better experience for the fans, then you're absolutely crazy.

[General Zod]

When was the last time thousands of fans of a movie star or singer attended a concert or red carpet premiere, booed them merciliessly and chanted "YOU SUCK!" ?

Rachel Weisz got booed at the premier of The Fountain at the Venice Film Festival. Unlike professional athletes though, if an actor gets booed during a movie's premier their career can be severely damaged. Just to nitpick.

[Elfdart]

Why the fuck did they boo at her? Didn't she just win an Oscar?

[General Zod]

Why the fuck did they boo at her? Didn't she just win an Oscar?

Apparently the plot was too confusing.

[chitoryu12]

Magically, continued mess-ups will cause sports owners, coaches and fans to question to ability of the player. It isn't much different.

How many mess-ups? Every football player expects and is expected to fumble once in a while and get tackled a number of times in a game. Actors, singers, and dancers are not expected to fuck up at least once each time they perform.

[General Zod]

Magically, continued mess-ups will cause sports owners, coaches and fans to question to ability of the player. It isn't much different.

How many mess-ups? Every football player expects and is expected to fumble once in a while and get tackled a number of times in a game. Actors, singers, and dancers are not expected to fuck up at least once each time they perform.

Only if you're discussing live performances. Otherwise how else do you think we get blooper reels from films?

[chitoryu12]

Magically, continued mess-ups will cause sports owners, coaches and fans to question to ability of the player. It isn't much different.

How many mess-ups? Every football player expects and is expected to fumble once in a while and get tackled a number of times in a game. Actors, singers, and dancers are not expected to fuck up at least once each time they perform.

Only if you're discussing live performances. Otherwise how else do you think we get blooper reels from films?

It won't stop mess-ups on screen, though. You'll always get someone who forgets they're on camera and does something out-of-character or ends up giving a totally bad performance. You're only as good as your last performance, and if you mess up and it makes it into theaters, everybody will likely blow you off as someone not worth watching. If a football player fumbles, people will boo on one side and cheer on the other and the game will go on. If an actor, singer, or dancer messes up and people see it, their abilities will be questioned and they may have to find a new line of work.

[Darth Mortis]

Now wait a minute, we are comparing people who make believe for a living with people who spend the prime years of their lives getting hit and dodging 6'5 300 pound guys running 40 yards in 4.3 seconds? Seriously, I love Sean Connery but i highly doubt he's going to be able to avoid an all out blitz by Joey Porter and Jason Taylor.

[Darth Mortis]

Damnit, hit the button on accident.

However, i see Jim Brown and several other atheletes make movies all the time.

[General Zod]

Damnit, hit the button on accident.

However, i see Jim Brown and several other atheletes make movies all the time.

Then there's people like Jackie Chan, who's broken nearly every bone in his body at least once doing his own stunts in movies. And Arnold of course, and several other actors/body builders.

[Darth Mortis]

jackie chan and Arnold would get fucking smashed by the front four of the worst team in the NFL. I'm pretty sure I can take at least one guy off and NFL team and have them make a movie. Not saying it would be good, but then we have Last Action Hero right?

[General Zod]

jackie chan and Arnold would get fucking smashed by the front four of the worst team in the NFL. I'm pretty sure I can take at least one guy off and NFL team and have them make a movie. Not saying it would be good, but then we have Last Action Hero right?

Of course, it doesn't take much in the way of brain power to make a good football player. And I take it you've never seen shots of Arnold in his prime.

[Darth Mortis]

jackie chan and Arnold would get fucking smashed by the front four of the worst team in the NFL. I'm pretty sure I can take at least one guy off and NFL team and have them make a movie. Not saying it would be good, but then we have Last Action Hero right?

Of course, it doesn't take much in the way of brain power to make a good football player. And I take it you've never seen shots of Arnold in his prime.

Arnold was too big to play football, he had no mobility.

And I think you should play Quarterback on a team that has 45 formations, 20 audible options, 15 motion packages, 12 check downsand 258 plays while reading a DB for a blitz and checking a linebacker to see if he's cheating on the tight end in less than 35 seconds while managing the clock and information your team of what they are doing wrong.

It requires more intelligence than you think.

[chitoryu12]

jackie chan and Arnold would get fucking smashed by the front four of the worst team in the NFL. I'm pretty sure I can take at least one guy off and NFL team and have them make a movie. Not saying it would be good, but then we have Last Action Hero right?

Of course, it doesn't take much in the way of brain power to make a good football player. And I take it you've never seen shots of Arnold in his prime.

Arnold was too big to play football, he had no mobility.

And I think you should play Quarterback on a team that has 45 formations, 20 audible options, 15 motion packages, 12 check downsand 258 plays while reading a DB for a blitz and checking a linebacker to see if he's cheating on the tight end in less than 35 seconds while managing the clock and information your team of what they are doing wrong.

It requires more intelligence than you think.

You could say the same thing for an army grunt. It doesn't take much intelligence to follow someone else's instructions.

[Ritterin Sophia]

It requires more intelligence than you think.

They're playing a game that any decently intelligent human would see would cause them immense difficulty later in life, seriously hindering their quality of life, if they can't see this they're morons, if they can they're bordering on retarded.

[SCRawl]

It requires more intelligence than you think.

They're playing a game that any decently intelligent human would see would cause them immense difficulty later in life, seriously hindering their quality of life, if they can't see this they're morons, if they can they're bordering on retarded.

Not every professional football player takes that bad of a pounding over the course of his career, and anyways they're well compensated for it.

As for the notion that a quarterback doesn't require intelligence, you're out of your mind. It is without question the most difficult job in professional sports. The decision tree is immense, and often there's very little time to make those decisions. Granted, it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to hand off the ball, but not all plays are that simple. On top of that, he also has to have demigodlike hand-eye co-ordination, (usually) the ability to run well, and be incredibly strong. The kind of athlete who can be a quarterback in the NFL is rare indeed.

[Alexandrov]

It requires more intelligence than you think.

They're playing a game that any decently intelligent human would see would cause them immense difficulty later in life, seriously hindering their quality of life, if they can't see this they're morons, if they can they're bordering on retarded.

Not every professional football player takes that bad of a pounding over the course of his career, and anyways they're well compensated for it.

As for the notion that a quarterback doesn't require intelligence, you're out of your mind. It is without question the most difficult job in professional sports. The decision tree is immense, and often there's very little time to make those decisions. Granted, it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to hand off the ball, but not all plays are that simple. On top of that, he also has to have demigodlike hand-eye co-ordination, (usually) the ability to run well, and be incredibly strong. The kind of athlete who can be a quarterback in the NFL is rare indeed.

Rocket surgeon?

[Elfdart]

It requires more intelligence than you think.

They're playing a game that any decently intelligent human would see would cause them immense difficulty later in life, seriously hindering their quality of life, if they can't see this they're morons, if they can they're bordering on retarded.

It's a calculated risk for the money. Some manage to have long careers and walk away without serious injuries, like Jim Brown. Others are willing to risk permanent injury because let's face it, were it not for sports, they'd be looking at other forms of hard labor -and for shitty wages. A sore back and arthritic joints from football isn't that bad compared to a the same injuries from many years of heavy lifting at a menial job. If you're going to end up all fucked up later in life either way, why not try to get the big money?

[SCRawl]

Rocket surgeon?

Yeah, that's right. I could've said "rocket scientist" or "brain surgeon", but this way you get them both in one convenient package.

[Darth Wong]

In my experience, whenever people try to justify our society's sick over-valuation of sports celebrities, they do it by citing supply and demand. This is an entirely circular argument, since the demand for sports celebrities is a symptom of our society's sick over-valuation of sports celebrities. It's literally like saying that A is justified because of A.

Juggling chainsaws while riding a unicycle is a talent at least as difficult and dangerous as any athlete, yet people who do that live off crumbs in traveling carnivals while people who play (for example) baseball get 50 million dollar contracts. There is no objective reason for this valuation; it is nothing more than an arbitrary social convention.