Zerg vs. Skynet

[ArcturusMengsk]

A small Zerg force (and by 'small', I mean several dozen Overlords filled to max capacity with Drones, Zerglings, Hydralisks, and a single Cerebrate) flies through a temporal anomaly en route to assault the UED and arrives over Terminator-verse Earth in a timeline where the Resistance was defeated. Recognizing this as Earth, the Cerberate decides to invade, touching down just south of the Mexican border.

Assume for the sake of this scenario that Minerals and Vespene can be replaced with resources found naturally on Earth.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Interesting, but it depends on how much food is stillp resent in South America. The novels have the 3d world as still heavily populated, SA in particular, and the lush rainforests would make excellent food for the Zerg.

We know that they can chew up through heavily armoured and/or shielded opponents (See The Zealot, Dragoon, Goliath, etc'), and they don't have any real "Centre of gravity" that could be decapitated via a temporal attack (Assuming SN messed around with that).

The main question is whether they can spread fast and far enough before Skynes tries nuking them. Under one of the smarter Cerebrates I can see this happening, under the slower "One large slowly growing hive" it's more questionable and depends on how much firepower Skynet has left. (Although radiation, heat don't bother the Zerg that much considering that they can fly unprotected through Space, but a point blank blast should vaporize their smaller buildings, same as anything else)

[ArcturusMengsk]

I meant to say that they touched down south of the Mexican-American border below Texas.

[Teleros]

The main question is whether they can spread fast and far enough before Skynes tries nuking them. Under one of the smarter Cerebrates I can see this happening, under the slower "One large slowly growing hive" it's more questionable and depends on how much firepower Skynet has left. (Although radiation, heat don't bother the Zerg that much considering that they can fly unprotected through Space, but a point blank blast should vaporize their smaller buildings, same as anything else)

Don't their Cerebrates have that silly means of regenerating from a non-Dark Templar attack? Haven't played the mission in ages, but there was certainly something along those lines. Sure it wouldn't work to defend their other stuff (well, unless a few drones hid under the thing ), but it'd be a laugh to see the thing surviving Skynet's saturation atomic bombing .

[Starglider]

If the zerg are fueled by biomass, Skynet could set off lots (many thousands) of salted groundbursts and shroud the planet in deadly fallout and a nuclear winter from atmospheric dust. Skynet's own infrastructure is entirely powered by fusion reactors and shielded against radiation, and will be unaffected.

[Morilore]

Don't their Cerebrates have that silly means of regenerating from a non-Dark Templar attack? Haven't played the mission in ages, but there was certainly something along those lines. Sure it wouldn't work to defend their other stuff (well, unless a few drones hid under the thing ), but it'd be a laugh to see the thing surviving Skynet's saturation atomic bombing .

If you actually study which Cerebrates reincarnated and which did not over the course of the game, as well as paying attention to what the Zerg characters say about it, you may come to the conclusion that Cerebrate reincarnation is dependent upon communication with the/an Overmind. Note that the UED was actually able to destroy three Cerebrates in the final mission (to the point of disabling their broods, which explicitly does not happen in reincarnation scenarios; see original Protoss mission 2), and the UED at that time was using a funky piece of technology that fuxed up Zerg communication.

So, does the Cerebrate in question remain in contact with the Overmind?

[Lord of the Abyss]

If the zerg are fueled by biomass, Skynet could set off lots (many thousands) of salted groundbursts and shroud the planet in deadly fallout and a nuclear winter from atmospheric dust. Skynet's own infrastructure is entirely powered by fusion reactors and shielded against radiation, and will be unaffected.

If it had the resources to do that, why didn't it do so instead of screwing around with robots for killing humans ?

[Xon]

If it had the resources to do that, why didn't it do so instead of screwing around with robots for killing humans ?

The Overmind simple transfers the mind-state into other biomass if the destuction isnt completed fast enough and a mixture of psi-powered regeneration when there is enough local zerg biomass around.

Starcraft factions have never demonstrated the ability to inflict the type of cataclysmic destruction of a planet's surface(even highly localized) required to remove a Zerg infestation in a timeframe where the Cerebrate cant be transfered out in time.

The whole point of the Dark Templar attack is it disrupts thier thought processes enough that they cant have thier mind-state copied out without corruption aka killing them.

[Xon]

So, does the Cerebrate in question remain in contact with the Overmind?

By the definition of the OP, it doesnt. Nothing about the Zerg's telepathy has demonstrated that it has time-like abilities and nothing in the OP indicates the temporal anomaly is a two way bridge rather than a single-way one-off instance.

And since the Zerg Overmind is in one time-period and the Cerebrate is in another, there sure as fuck isnt anyway for them to communicate.

[The Grim Squeaker]

So, does the Cerebrate in question remain in contact with the Overmind?

By the definition of the OP, it doesnt. Nothing about the Zerg's telepathy has demonstrated that it has time-like abilities and nothing in the OP indicates the temporal anomaly is a two way bridge rather than a single-way one-off instance.

And since the Zerg Overmind is in one time-period and the Cerebrate is in another, there sure as fuck isnt anyway for them to communicate.

Why should the Over-mind not exist in this time period? The Protoss and Zerg were around for millenia, and The events of SC take place only a few centuries in the future (2259 - UED purges and 28 years of warp travel to the colonies).

The Overmind simple transfers the mind-state into other biomass if the destuction isnt completed fast enough and a mixture of psi-powered regeneration when there is enough local zerg biomass around.

Do you have a source on that quote?

Starcraft factions have never demonstrated the ability to inflict the type of cataclysmic destruction of a planet's surface(even highly localized) required to remove a Zerg infestation in a timeframe where the Cerebrate cant be transfered out in time.

We've seen the Protoss pulp a planet's surface in a matter of minutes or less in a localized hemisphere (Tassadar's fleet), and my impression was that that there was no "range/time limit" for ressurecting the Cerebrate even across interplanetary distances (barring The intervention of funky Dark Eldar attacks or Tassadar's Kamikaze blast of Doomtm).
We have a mission quote of the Cerebrate regenerating from its own pulped, dead form even as the Protoss watched with "horrified eyes" (And were unable to stop it).
Still, the Cerebrates wanktastic regeneration could easily be linked to that quote you provided ("drain bio-mass to increase your HP by 10 ") and if the Cerebrate doesn't get it's unique psionic activities then it might be moot. (Though it's very arguable, it could easily be a trait of it's own).

Note that the UED was actually able to destroy three Cerebrates in the final mission (to the point of disabling their broods, which explicitly does not happen in reincarnation scenarios; see original Protoss mission 2), and the UED at that time was using a funky piece of technology that fuxed up Zerg communication.

The broods were only temporarily disabled, we didn't have a confirmation of the Cerebrate itself being destroyed since within a short time-span since the baby, weakened Merge of 3 Cerebrates/Overmind 0.2 had been put into a drug induced funk by the UED very shortly thereafter.
For all we know, The admiral could have ordered the Cerebrates not to regenerate for fear of them maintaining their independence or some such.

[Molyneux]

If the zerg are fueled by biomass, Skynet could set off lots (many thousands) of salted groundbursts and shroud the planet in deadly fallout and a nuclear winter from atmospheric dust. Skynet's own infrastructure is entirely powered by fusion reactors and shielded against radiation, and will be unaffected.

If it had the resources to do that, why didn't it do so instead of screwing around with robots for killing humans ?

That is...a very good question. ("That just raises further questions!")
Perhaps there was some fragment of Skynet's "Defend the USA" - or whatever other directives were in place - preventing it from destroying humanity entirely?

Nasty thought: Could Skynet have been running prison camps, or worse, human farms, to uphold the letter of its programming?

[Rye]

Skynet had death camps and worked people to death in factories, as I recall. We don't know the letter of its programming, though, it may simply be looking after territorial lines and figured the best way to do that is prevent any military force from ever intruding on that territory or preventing it from accomplishing that mission is by it staying alive and preventing any military force from forming by the extermination of the human race.

[ArcturusMengsk]

My interpretation of the death camps Reese mentioned in the first film - and this is only my opinion, I have nothing to back it up - is that they're Skynet's attempt to milk every last resource available to it to attain maximum efficiency.

As for the Cerebrate in this scenario, assume that it has its psychic abilities, but that it is cut off from the Overmind.

[The Grim Squeaker]

My interpretation of the death camps Reese mentioned in the first film - and this is only my opinion, I have nothing to back it up - is that they're Skynet's attempt to milk every last resource available to it to attain maximum efficiency.

That is hinted at strongly, as it apparently started as work camps then death camps then finally "Kill all humans but the scientists!" as Skynet got increasingly pissed off at the humans.

As for the Cerebrate in this scenario, assume that it has its psychic abilities, but that it is cut off from the Overmind.

So it can regenerate? Is it still all but immune to non psychic attacks? Or do you mean it can't grow back from a mashed pulp, but can control it's minions

[ArcturusMengsk]

So it can regenerate? Is it still all but immune to non psychic attacks? Or do you mean it can't grow back from a mashed pulp, but can control it's minions

Immunity, yes (though if it were hit with a Death Star blast, or anything of a cosmic scale, I wouldn't expect it to survive), and control, but no regen, which I've always interpreted as being the Overmind's doing.

[Ghost Rider]

So while we have this wonderful discussion, anyone care to demonstrate who is better in any department other then "The Zerg are nasty!!"

Come on, before I hit the lock button...

[ArcturusMengsk]

So while we have this wonderful discussion, anyone care to demonstrate who is better in any department other then "The Zerg are nasty!!"

Come on, before I hit the lock button...

Well, alright.

My take on the scenario is that the Zerg will almost invariably lose any battles they try to wage against Skynet (it essentially being a mix of the high technology of the Protoss coupled with the numbers and versatility of the Terrans), but that they'll spread too rapidly to ever really be wiped out short of Skynet developing a biological weapon of some sort - which it might very well do. The Zerg have a nasty habit of burrowing beneath the surface of a planet and lurking there until it becomes necessary to emerge. The two sides might be even enough that a war between the two could exhaust the resources of the Earth should it last long enough, though it'd take a long while given that both can recycle entire armies from scrap.

The question really hinges on the number of Terminator and Hunter-Killer units relative to the speed of expansion of a hive.

[Ghost Rider]

So while we have this wonderful discussion, anyone care to demonstrate who is better in any department other then "The Zerg are nasty!!"

Come on, before I hit the lock button...

Well, alright.

My take on the scenario is that the Zerg will almost invariably lose any battles they try to wage against Skynet (it essentially being a mix of the high technology of the Protoss coupled with the numbers and versatility of the Terrans), but that they'll spread too rapidly to ever really be wiped out short of Skynet developing a biological weapon of some sort - which it might very well do. The Zerg have a nasty habit of burrowing beneath the surface of a planet and lurking there until it becomes necessary to emerge. The two sides might be even enough that a war between the two could exhaust the resources of the Earth should it last long enough, though it'd take a long while given that both can recycle entire armies from scrap.

The question really hinges on the number of Terminator and Hunter-Killer units relative to the speed of expansion of a hive.

Thus you have nothing.

You are saying you BELIEVE Skynet's forces are better because you see it this way.

No one in this thread has shown any sort of evidence that the who has what other then talking about a blob of mass that is the Cerebrate.

So anyone going to try? Or does this get relegated to spam?

I really don't care if someone wants a discussion of the Zerg or Skytnet, but when you make a versus...try and present some cold hard data why one side destroys the other. Not "This side has red stripes, thus is better!".

[NecronLord]

In every depiction, Skynet is supremely strapped for resources. Even with automated factories, there's still enough bottlenecks in production to let John Connor and his quantatively inferior troops overrun it.

The Zerg, on the other hand, appear to have no problems finding endless 'crystal' and 'vespene gas' resources to swarm in great numbers with.

[Starglider]

If it had the resources to do that, why didn't it do so instead of screwing around with robots for killing humans ?

Some combination of:
1) Overconfidence
2) Residual programming blocks and
3) Writer fiat

The most sensible answer is that by the time Skynet realised the humans were enough of a threat, they had built up a sizeable fusion-powered industrial base of their own - they definitely had extensive underground bunkers and some means of producing food (probably hydroponics) that wasn't vulnerable to NBC attack by Skynet.

There's simply no way that Skynet could be capable of producing hundreds of automated factories, millions of machines powered by compact fusion power cells and such feats of high technology as plasma guns, time machines and nanomachine constructs, yet be unable to produce good old 1950s hydrogen bombs.

[Andrew_Fireborn]

Hmm... an interesting attempt to quantify...

Skynet, in every incarnation, seems to have only a few main unit types, with a small reserve of obviously expensive experimental units like the various "liquid metals."

Every time they've been seen in combat... It's always seemed to be deployed in more in a shock trooper form than any actual military tactics. Even the units sent back in time seemed unconcerned about acting covertly. (True, they had little to fear, but they did have a target to track down and eliminate.)

The Zerg... seem to have minor lithovoric capabilities (At the very least, the ability to convert naturally occurring elements into their organic compound forms.) They can also spawn offensive capable units very quickly, and in great numbers. (See the Starcraft: Ghost opening that's floating around, for both a fine example of overconfidence, and what a zergling rush really looks like. ) Fluff wise, they're supposed to be intelligent enough to use combined arms and some basic tactics.

Both sides are either immune, or greatly unaffected by radiation, can theoretically recycle their troops.

The main issue, as I see it, is that the standard Terminator weaponry is highly unlikely to be as powerful the weaponry employed by the UED.


I'd say it would go to the Zerg, assuming they -could- survive any initial and final resort attacks levied against them. Which is a fair sized if.

[NecronLord]

Every time they've been seen in combat... It's always seemed to be deployed in more in a shock trooper form than any actual military tactics. Even the units sent back in time seemed unconcerned about acting covertly. (True, they had little to fear, but they did have a target to track down and eliminate.)

Err. What films have you been watching? They've only cut loose with their superhuman robot-ness when enemy units that are already aware of them are present. Look at the T-1000. It pretends to be a cop and questions people... That's not covert enough for you?

The main issue, as I see it, is that the standard Terminator weaponry is highly unlikely to be as powerful the weaponry employed by the UED.

Err. You realise the idea that Starcraft (unless Starcraft 2, which I've not got and can't play anyway, has seriously beefed them up) smallarms are coilguns has been debunked many times, and they're essentially just big firearms. Given that, I hardly know how you're making that call.

[Starglider]

Skynet, in every incarnation, seems to have only a few main unit types,

I don't see how you can conclude this from the few, brief battle scenes we saw in the films. We saw the equivalent of tanks, infantry and helicopter gunships. This is quite sufficient for front-line combat - with the speed, toughness and endurance of the terminator units, APCs are probably redundant. We did not see artillery, fast jets or support vehicles because it was not within the scope of the battle scenes we saw, which focused on dramatic close-quarters fighting.

It's always seemed to be deployed in more in a shock trooper form than any actual military tactics.

We never saw any setpiece battles or even fighting in open terrain, on a scale above the company level, that would benefit from complex tactics. We didn't even see enough of the terminator units fighting to see if they operated as mutually supporting squads or not, though they did seem to be grouped. We did see Skynet using combined arms (infantry/armour/air support) quite effectively, which was a hell of a lot better than the humans managed (irregular infantry plus some technicals) or what we see in most sci-fi universes.

Even the units sent back in time seemed unconcerned about acting covertly.

WTF? Did you watch the films? The terminators made definite efforts to avoid drawing attention to themselves until absolutely necessary - they acquired clothes, they acted superficially human, they did not start showing off superhuman capabilities until the target was in sight or they were sure there would be no surviving witnesses. In the first film it is made very clear that terminators act human enough that they are a very serious infiltration threat for the human resistance.

Both sides are either immune, or greatly unaffected by radiation,

How do you get that, for the Zerg?

The main issue, as I see it, is that the standard Terminator weaponry is highly unlikely to be as powerful the weaponry employed by the UED.

The main Skynet weapons are various forms of plasma gun shooting bolts of vaporised heavy metals (held together by some unknown means), backed up by missiles and conventional slugthrowers. I don't have the videos to hand, but as I recall the bolts create explosions comparable to SW blasters when they hit scenery. I was not aware that Starcraft hand weapon yields exceeded those of SW.

[NecronLord]

APCs are probably redundant.

I'm pretty sure the aerial HKs in T3 are meant to have a transport capacity, too. The more obscure books, for what they're worth, have also featured air transports.

We did not see artillery, fast jets or support vehicles because it was not within the scope of the battle scenes we saw, which focused on dramatic close-quarters fighting.

Don't forget the HK silverfish and the flying mini-HK that resembles one of those dinky Tau drones. They're both Cameron creations, so I'm pretty sure they count as canon, and are both rather good ideas, essentially being a variant on the dogbot concept we (that is to say, SDN denizens) usually come up with when trying to design combat robots.

How do you get that, for the Zerg?

Presumably from their flying in space. Of course, IIRC, the Starcraft terran flying saucer science unit had some kind of funky radiation attack that worked on them just fine.

I don't have the videos to hand, but as I recall the bolts create explosions comparable to SW blasters when they hit scenery. I was not aware that Starcraft hand weapon yields exceeded those of SW.

Which fits quite well with the (SM Sterling, I think) interpretation of '40 Megawatt range.'

[Starglider]

Don't forget the HK silverfish and the flying mini-HK that resembles one of those dinky Tau drones. They're both Cameron creations, so I'm pretty sure they count as canon, and are both rather good ideas, essentially being a variant on the dogbot concept we (that is to say, SDN denizens) usually come up with when trying to design combat robots.

There's a lot of cool stuff in the novels, but I didn't want to reference that as they're not necessarily canon. Here's an excellent fan site that combines stuff from the movies, the novels and sensible fan extrapolation; it has lots of detail on numerous models of HK and support machines.

How do you get that, for the Zerg?

Presumably from their flying in space.

The radiation environment in space is very different from heavy nuclear fallout. The former consists mostly of high velocity protons and electrons, with a few alpha particles. It can be shielded against with a thick carapace. Fallout consists of radioisotopes that permeate the air, water and biomatter and get absorbed into an organic body, where they damage it from the inside, bypassing any shielding. Furthermore there is a much higher proportion of gamma and neutron radiation, which are much harder to shield against.