Command Carrier vs. Executor...

[starfury]

However that ruined Command Carrier floating in that spaceship graveyard in a early Farscape episode appeared pretty big as well.

That is the Zelbinion from season 1, I think whuch they considered a legendary ship and I think it may be Much large version of the normal command carrier, which as you said seems like ISD or Venator Size. the Zelbinion in contrast even then was much bigger then Crais's ship.

[NecronLord]

Humm... If the Zelbinion were some kind of super carrier, that would make the Nebari ships even more horrifyingly powerful...

[Big Orange]

That is the Zelbinion from season 1, I think whuch they considered a legendary ship and I think it may be Much large version of the normal command carrier, which as you said seems like ISD or Venator Size. the Zelbinion in contrast even then was much bigger then Crais's ship.

I never got the impression that the Zelbinion was much bigger than the Command Carrier that was initially captained by Crais then taken over as Scorpius' mobile base of operations - the Zelbinion was likely seen as a exceptional PK flagship due to it's combat record and the exploits of it's infamous captain. As usual deceptive CGI detail and perspective must distort the size of the Zelbinion hulk.

Humm... If the Zelbinion were some kind of super carrier, that would make the Nebari ships even more horrifyingly powerful...

Either that was hollow boasting on the part of the Nebari marshal escorting Chiana or the Nebari race earlier on were originaly intended to be the Peace Keeper's rival superpower that was also somewhat more powerful, but the Scarrans filled in that role later on instead. I wouldn't think the Nebari were outright more powerful than either Scarrans or even PKs, but I wouldn't be surprised that they were more technologically advanced, however they opted for sex-obessed infiltrators for their more subtle take over the known galaxy to make up for their comparatively small industrial and territorial base.

[Jade Owl]

The statement by the Nebari marshal may also be misleading. He may have been telling a half truth rather than a lie.

He said that a single Nebari ship had defeated the Zelbinion, but he neglected to mention the state in which said ship was by the end of the fight. For all we know the Nebari warship may have taken almost as big a beating as the Zelbinion, and only “won” by virtue of being the only ship capable of moving under its own power after the fight. The fact that Zelbinion’s hull was mostly intact and left were it was for over a century may point to the fact that the Nebari were in a hurry to leave the area, and were unwilling or unable to finish of them off.

Even if we take everything the marshal said as face value, he may still be misrepresenting the Nebari military capability. Let’s assume that they do have warships that are capable off totally kicking the crap of a Command Carrier in a one on one fight. That doesn’t mean that they have a lot of them. Individually superior units don’t mean jack in the face of cold numbers.

[McC]

It could be mild continuity error, but I can see the Command Carrier remaining the same size throughout the first threes season, only that CGI detail was cranked up greatly so you could go right up to Crais' flagship, well within the ring superstructure with the inner point defense frag turrets and docking bays within the main hull.

Yeah, I agree. At least in terms of SOD analysis, I suspect it will line up alright due to how the early command carriers were 'shot'. The later ones were done closer (with a better model), and presumably were more consistently scaled, since the series had had time to establish a consistent scale metric at that point.

However that ruined Command Carrier floating in that spaceship graveyard in a early Farscape episode appeared pretty big as well.

I suspect there are also actually several models of CC, all built on the same basic structure, scaled. The Zelbinion was likely one of the huge CCs seen in PK Wars as Grayza's command vessel, which had a markedly different dorsal forward surface than other CCs (some kind of large tanks on top or some such).

[Baal]

I dont see how anyone could compare any PK force to any force from the Empire.

In the opening Farscape episode Moira was able to escape a PK ship by using that little planetary gravity assisted slingshot move.

That maneuver had them moving too fast for the PK ship to target, out of range of their weapons almost instantly, and mocing too fast for the PK to go after and catch.

Any Imperial ship would watch that maneuver, laugh for a moment, then blow the ship into little glowing bio-ship bits.

[Lazarus]

I suspect there are also actually several models of CC, all built on the same basic structure, scaled. The Zelbinion was likely one of the huge CCs seen in PK Wars as Grayza's command vessel, which had a markedly different dorsal forward surface than other CCs (some kind of large tanks on top or some such).

I thought there was something different about that flagship but I couldn't quite place it. I don't suppose anyone could screenshot it (my copy of PKW was downloaded then deleted due to lack of DVD burner)?

I dont see how anyone could compare any PK force to any force from the Empire.

At this point I think that's the question. Is there any Imperial vessel that a Command Carrier could take? I'd be willing to say a Corvette/Gunship would be in trouble, if only for the sheer size of the CC. SW weapon tech probably outmatches the CC's shields (and PK weapon tech would probably have trouble against SW shields) in terms of blow-for-blow, but then it's pretty hard to quantify this (I'm not aware of any episode that shows frag cannons and CC shields in action in enough detail to analyse).

Prowlers seem to pack quite a bit of punch in some cases, and very little in others (Captain Braca's (sp?) prowler flight kicked the shit out of a Scarran dreadnought in PKW), so again it's hard to say how they'd perform.

[McC]

I thought there was something different about that flagship but I couldn't quite place it. I don't suppose anyone could screenshot it (my copy of PKW was downloaded then deleted due to lack of DVD burner)?

There are a fuckton of screenshots available here. Compare the screenshots of Scorpy's carrier in Season 3 with Grayza's carrier in PK Wars to see what I'm talking about.

[McC]

Ghetto edit: Image 355 in particular is a fairly good example. PK Wars gallery, page 4, bottom row, middle column. The ship appears much larger, and seems to have a different central body configuration.

[Lazarus]

Interesting, Grayza's flagship is definitely different, and from the image it appears to be larger (though naturally being in space it's hard to tell). The Zelbinion combined with this vessel suggests that there probably is a flagship-type CC of greater size, and possibly greater power.

[McC]

There may be another CC variant in those images, now that I look at them. The CC Grayza's on during the final battle has two 'tanks' on top that appear (based on the little nipple on the end) to be secondary command modules of some kind. However, the CC pictured earlier, that has the PK high commander on it, appears to have twin 'fins' running down the forward portion of the hull. So, there may be three CC varieties in play in PK Wars alone: the standard CC, the 'battle command' CC Grayza uses in the final battle, and the 'supreme' CC pictured earlier in PK wars at what appears to be the 'main base.'

[NecronLord]

Any Imperial ship would watch that maneuver, laugh for a moment, then blow the ship into little glowing bio-ship bits.

That's odd. I distinctly recall transport ships escaping them from Hoth with only one Imperial ship needing to be disabled. Death Squadron must have mysteriously taken up position on the other side of the planet from the Rebel Base huh? Or maybe they're not especially good at shooting down fast transports, either.

You are of course, also assuming Crais wished to destroy Moya in that scene. As opposed to capture it so he can mete out his personal psychotic revenge on Crichton.

Ignoring that, you're assuming Crais - who at this stage wasn't a renegade - would have clearance to open fire on an inhabited planet in order to merely shoot down a rapidly manouvering low-value starship with all of three prisoners on it.

What do you think Peacekeeper Command would do to him if he missed (remember, this is an improvised bomb made by a mystic from what can be found on a typical transport and this is a single warship grade shot... these aren't Star Trek 'hand grenade ortillery' guns here) and snuffed out a few billion lives while chasing after two (well, three, if you count Crichton) escaped murders and a deposed petty tyrant - I'll give you a clue, they may be assholes, but given that as an essentially mercenary force (albeit a massive and domineering one) they require people to hire them now and then, that isn't the kind of publicity they want.

[Baal]

Any Imperial ship would watch that maneuver, laugh for a moment, then blow the ship into little glowing bio-ship bits.

That's odd. I distinctly recall transport ships escaping them from Hoth with only one Imperial ship needing to be disabled. Death Squadron must have mysteriously taken up position on the other side of the planet from the Rebel Base huh? Or maybe they're not especially good at shooting down fast transports, either.

You are of course, also assuming Crais wished to destroy Moya in that scene. As opposed to capture it so he can mete out his personal psychotic revenge on Crichton.

Ignoring that, you're assuming Crais - who at this stage wasn't a renegade - would have clearance to open fire on an inhabited planet in order to merely shoot down a rapidly manouvering low-value starship with all of three prisoners on it.

What do you think Peacekeeper Command would do to him if he missed (remember, this is an improvised bomb made by a mystic from what can be found on a typical transport and this is a single warship grade shot... these aren't Star Trek 'hand grenade ortillery' guns here) and snuffed out a few billion lives while chasing after two (well, three, if you count Crichton) escaped murders and a deposed petty tyrant - I'll give you a clue, they may be assholes, but given that as an essentially mercenary force (albeit a massive and domineering one) they require people to hire them now and then, that isn't the kind of publicity they want.

1. The Hoth situation is totally different. The Imperial ships were disabled by shots from the ground. NOTHING was done that disabled the PK ship during the slingshot maneuver.

2. In the episode unless I am totally remembering wrong Moira was out of range of the PK ship in a matter of seconds and during the maneuver was moving too fast to be targetted. There is no maneuver a ship could pull at less that hyperspace speed that would put a ship out of range of the weapons of a Star Destroyer in just a few seconds.

[McC]

2. In the episode unless I am totally remembering wrong Moira was out of range of the PK ship in a matter of seconds and during the maneuver was moving too fast to be targetted. There is no maneuver a ship could pull at less that hyperspace speed that would put a ship out of range of the weapons of a Star Destroyer in just a few seconds.

Moya.

Jesus fucking Christ. Not only did you say it wrong the first time, indicating an excessively questionable knowledge of the series itself and a lack of reading comprehension due to the fact that it was also said in this thread a few times, but you said it wrong again after posts contained the correct spelling subsequent to yours.

Secondly, vessels in FarScape seem to be perpetually traveling with some kind of non-Newtonian drive called Hetch drive, which ranges from sub- to super-light speeds. Moya is significantly faster than the top speed of Hetch seven that a PK Marauder can attain. So, it's not a matter of flat-out top speed.

[Stark]

Woo, Farscape uses B7-style 'it's all fast baby' systems?

[NecronLord]

1. The Hoth situation is totally different. The Imperial ships were disabled by shots from the ground. NOTHING was done that disabled the PK ship during the slingshot maneuver.

And yet, the other six-plus ships didn't do anything against the Rebel Transport. Oh wait, maybe Imperials aren't completely immune to being surprised... Just like the Command Carrier crew, who all manage to be baffled by the unarmed transport ship turning around to face them. And again, you don't know whether Crais wanted to destroy the ship, or just cripple it.

You claim that an Imperial ship would do better; how? They did no better in the Battle of Hoth, the only difference between the rebel ship and Moya, there, is that it was behaving completely unconventionally.

Yes, the star destroyer that was on station there was disabled. But remind me, what were the others doing? From re-watching the farscape Premiere, Moya was planetary diameters away from the carrier within seven seconds of finishing its slingshot manouver. And yet you claim that 'any Imperial Ship' would do better. Here's a hint; they don't do better when they're in a similar situation in the canon. They don't effortlessly gun down a small seemingly unarmed transport fleeing a planet at a few planetary diameters distance. Let alone laugh about it. Surely if it's a laughing matter, the mighty Excecutor pride of the fleet, could do it. And yet, not only does one rebel transport get away, but an indeterminate number of them do. At least the same trick doesn't get used over and over on the Peacekeepers.

2. In the episode unless I am totally remembering wrong Moira was out of range of the PK ship in a matter of seconds and during the maneuver was moving too fast to be targetted. There is no maneuver a ship could pull at less that hyperspace speed that would put a ship out of range of the weapons of a Star Destroyer in just a few seconds.

Moya was also hurtling along at a speed not less than a few thousand kilometers per second, relative to the Command Carrier, which was still in orbit. When have you seen an Imperial starship engage such a target successfully? While they have decent range on their weapons, they invariably close to visual range when actually fighting.

[Xon]

Woo, Farscape uses B7-style 'it's all fast baby' systems?

A Hetch drive speed rates from hovering a few meters above the ground of a planet to speeds equivelent to high-end Startrek warp-sprint speeds.

[Big Orange]

What do you think Peacekeeper Command would do to him if he missed (remember, this is an improvised bomb made by a mystic from what can be found on a typical transport and this is a single warship grade shot... these aren't Star Trek 'hand grenade ortillery' guns here) and snuffed out a few billion lives while chasing after two (well, three, if you count Crichton) escaped murders and a deposed petty tyrant - I'll give you a clue, they may be assholes, but given that as an essentially mercenary force (albeit a massive and domineering one) they require people to hire them now and then, that isn't the kind of publicity they want.

I would say the Peac Keepers in the begining started off as conventional mercenaries when they were small in numbers, but over the centuries evolved into something that is essentially a military police state running an interstella protection racket on all the petty under militarised regional powers that were duped by the Peace Keeper's offer of protection in exchange for more space territory to legitimately operate their fleet in and allowing them to be build a military garrison on their homeworld. Quite crafty.

[NecronLord]

The origins of the Peacekeepers are revealed in The Peacekeeper Wars. That's about all I can say without spoiling you.

The Peacekeepers, as Aeryn has mentioned a few times, do have noble goals and their founding principles are pretty much 'good' - in the past, they were a much more likeable institution. It's something like, but not quite, the old mantra that power corrupts - the Peacekeepers were originally rather like UN peacekeepers.

[Big Orange]

The Sabacian race being related to Earth homo-sapiens does not really surprise me anyway and it seemed obvious from the start, even I don't know the exact deatails why. However while Peace Keepers are almost all Sabacians (with the exception of special operatives like Scorpy and alien scientists), not all Sabacians are Peace Keepers and they have carved up various successful cultures across the Farscape-verse. But I never understood why the Peace Keepers have an ideology of species purity despite supposedly being a-political "mercenaries"...

[NecronLord]

They're not mercenaries. That's how people think of them, but in their ideology, they're all about protecting the weak and so on. Witness their historical hero, Sub Officer Dacon, in Different Destinations.

[Big Orange]

They're not mercenaries. That's how people think of them,

Seemingly at their peril if you get many relatively weak regional powers essentially paying for a semi-hostile military occupation...

but in their ideology, they're all about protecting the weak and so on. Witness their historical hero, Sub Officer Dacon, in Different Destinations.

They initially had good intentions, protecting minor races from even worse conquerors like the Scarrans makes them the lesser of two evils and is good propaganda, but the more predatory PKs took advantage of people welcoming their military expertise and they're now running a protection racket on a grand scale. And there is no explanation or excuse for their paranoid xenophobia with their thinly veiled contempt for the non-Sabacians they're supposedly protecting and the habit of dropping PKs mingling with non-Sabacians for too long (but they don't threaten or carry out genocide like the more crazier Scarrans).

[NecronLord]

There's a fine excuse for their official "unclassified alien life form" regulations. Consider the amount of freaky critters that have possessed Moya's crew. While they're racists, it's at least understandable that they became racists. It's not like everyone likes them, after all. They've a long association with unpopular military duties.

[xerex]

Big Orange

you really need to see PeaceKeeper Wars. The PKs were never merceneries, but were inadvertantly placed in the position of being the galaxy's policemen. They fulfilled their duty of maintianing peace the only way they knew how--through brute force.

The PK's are racist yes, but i can easily see how that would have devleoped from thier starting point as the ultimate outsiders to thier finishing point as overlords trying to keep various barbarian alien groups from tearing each other apart.