Who believes in ghosts?

[Shinova]

I think ghosts would be pure thought if they existed, hence not a form of energy.

Before you say thought is little electrical impulses in the brain, hence are energy, I meant thought outside the head. If such a thing exists.

[Durandal]

Well, I don't know if anybody else has one of these, but I have a possesed manican. Do you know about those little wooden dolls that artists use by posing them? Well, I have one, and everytime I woke up it would be pointing at me. Unnerving and disturbing. I locked him up in my safe for a few days, and when I took him out(I decided it's a he)he had his arms on his waist like he had been waiting for me. As of yet he is still locked up in my closet.

Freeky

There's this thing called gravity. It probably pulled his arms down.

[The Teacher]

BaH, you cannot explain the paranormal with simple physics! Otherwise it wouldn't be paranormal!

Anyway, I don't think that gravity would pul his arms UP. I'm still scared

[Durandal]

BaH, you cannot explain the paranormal with simple physics! Otherwise it wouldn't be paranormal!

If it interacts with our environment, it must be the result of natural mechanisms ... thus not supernatural.

[Colonel Olrik]

Well, I don't know if anybody else has one of these, but I have a possesed manican. Do you know about those little wooden dolls that artists use by posing them? Well, I have one, and everytime I woke up it would be pointing at me. Unnerving and disturbing. I locked him up in my safe for a few days, and when I took him out(I decided it's a he)he had his arms on his waist like he had been waiting for me. As of yet he is still locked up in my closet.

Yeap, afraid of wooden dolls. That's indeed freaky. I passed that phase when I was about.. Five..

All the alleged Ghosts sightings are figments of the human vivid imagination. Unexplained sounds and sights, together with brain-induced illusions. There are no experiments or facts favouring their existence that cannot have other, more reasonable, explanation. And by knowing a bit of Science.

BTW, I don't like your sig. Sounds trollish.

[SirNitram]

I think ghosts would be pure thought if they existed, hence not a form of energy.

Before you say thought is little electrical impulses in the brain, hence are energy, I meant thought outside the head. If such a thing exists.

I suppose if we were to suddenly accept the idea that ghosts and such existed, we would have to label them a third form of 'stuff'(Matter, Energy, <Blank>), since they can't be the first two. But the rub is, of course, there are no objective means of verifying <Blank> exists that anyone knows of.

Though, on the flip side, if <Blank> exists, it's probably responsible for any real cases of spirits, ghosts, magic, telepathy.

[The Teacher]

Hmmm...You do have a point. *shakes head* I gotta stop watching those Histroy Channel Ghost Stories.

Hey, speaking of stories, has anyone ever head about the Green Man?

[Pink Eye]

This is where I have a problem with the claim that ghosts are energy. Wouldn't if have to be something physical anyway? As far as I understand energy is nothing more than a concept i.e the ability to do work and not an actual substance or a thing.

Energy is real. Not all of it is useful, but it is far more than a simple concept. Water doesn't just heat up on its own, now does it?

Of course the effects of it is real. But wouldn't energy be more of a qualitative issue rather an quantitative i.e. I cannot hand you a beaker full of kinetic energy. We can calculate it, but we cannot messure it (no mass, no lenght or anything like that). But I am not a physicist, so perhaps I am wrong.

Some ghost hunters say it is IR or some other exotic form of energy and the only "proof" they have is weird readings on some kind of Air Ion sniffer, EM device, or pictures.

What the hell is an Air Ion sniffer anyway?

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that an air ion sniffer would be a device which looks for ions in the air. If ghosts were EM phenomena, then their presence might ionize the air around them due to EM radiation.

If this was the case, doesn't it take a great deal of energy to ionize an element?

[Durandal]

Of course the effects of it is real. But wouldn't energy be more of a qualitative issue rather an quantitative i.e. I cannot hand you a beaker full of kinetic energy. We can calculate it, but we cannot messure it (no mass, no lenght or anything like that). But I am not a physicist, so perhaps I am wrong.

Energy and mass are two forms of the same thing, hence E = mc^2. We measure energy all the time. As you gain kinetic energy, you gain mass, for example. If something's effects are real, it too is real. You can't have something that isn't real start you car up in the morning.

If this was the case, doesn't it take a great deal of energy to ionize an element?

That depends on the particular element's ionization energy.

[weemadando]

I believe in ghosts merely because I have seen some utterly freaky and not easily explainable shit.

I am not saying that there isn't an explanation for it and I'm not saying that science doesn't have the answers.

And I'm DEFINATELY NOT saying that ghosts are the spirits of the deceased come back to haunt the earth.

I remember a maths/physics lecturer once talking about how its possible that ghosts were beings that lived in dimensions beyond our perception but their actions still had an effect on the dimensions that we can perceive.

Again, I'm not sure if I buy into that...

I do believe in ghosts, but I don't believe in the current interpretations of them.

[MKSheppard]

You don't want to be wandering around certain places at night. Park Rangers
at Civil War Battlefields have reported some real freaky shit like cannon
fire, fighting etc going on in the night.

[Morat]

I don't believe in ghosts. I see no reason to believe that they exist.

Since some people mentioned orbs and such being seen in photographs, I thought I'd mention that James Randi has done some debunking of the idea that they're caused by supernatural phenomenon. Basically, its just an artifact of photographic processes, and can be easily explained by those knowledgable in fields related to optics and/or photography.

If you'd like to see the article where he wrote about this, you can find it in the archives at his web site: http://www.randi.org/

Of course the effects of it is real. But wouldn't energy be more of a qualitative issue rather an quantitative i.e. I cannot hand you a beaker full of kinetic energy. We can calculate it, but we cannot messure it (no mass, no lenght or anything like that). But I am not a physicist, so perhaps I am wrong.

Chemists have an instrument called a calorimeter. It measures the change in thermal energy of a system. The study of thermodynamics would be very difficult if we couldn't measure energy.

[Lagmonster]

I don't know about the majority, However I do know some places have a very BAD feeling to them, I figure ghosts are real in the Jungian Collective unconcious/Synchronicity. The energy left behind that can be percieved by others.

I think it's more a function of architecture/appearance and local folklore affecting your perceptions. No one has ever detected any of this "energy" in any empirical, objective manner. And if you give me a 10Hz oscillator, I can make your hair stand up and give you a creepy feeling in any place of my choosing.

I'm sure most of you know where I stand on this issue. Ghosts don't exist. I spent my youth fascinated by them thanks to stories I'd hear as a kid, and to this day collect folklore as a hobby.

I've been to many haunted venues, ghost hunts, etc. I've talked to a lot of strange people convinced that they'd heard and seen everything from Satan to their dead dog. I've felt shivers, seen shadows jump, seen appliances turn themselves on, seen cutlery hover, and seen people anthropomorphize everything from a kettle to a rocking chair.

But I've never seen ANYTHING that can convince me that the DEAD are responsible. I can tell you stories and take you places that will make your skin crawl, but afterwards I can point out what happened, take its measure, and duplicate its effects in the privacy of my own home.

Darth Wong is absolutely correct. Places exist which make EVERYONE feel uneasy. It is, in fact, a psychologically studied phenomenon and really DOES have to do with architecture, lighting, temperature, 'pack mood' (or the notion that if one person in your group is uneasy, the rest will become uneasy), and more importantly, local mythos and history.

I knew someone who INSISTED that suicides left malevolent ghosts. I also know a respected man who has told me that studies exist that show that some colors, lighting, and architecture can make people uneasy or depressed. If a depressed person is in a depressing place, they might be more likely to kill themselves. And when you get there, you'll notice the atmosphere as well and might also feel uneasy. And when you find out that it's the spot of a suicide, you leap to the 'obvious' conclusion as the uneasy feeling being because of a ghost and not because it's just not a nice place to be. This is, of course, wild speculation, but it fits what little I know about how people act in these situations.

And to anyone who has ever said that they observe 'orbs' of light or see traces of phantasmic forces captured on film, I say: Clean your damn lenses, be they camera or glasses.

[Majin Gojira]

I have to say this...I have to.

"I do believe in Spooks, I do Believe in Spooks, I do, I do! I DO!"

But actually, no, if anything, it's haluncinations of some kind. or something messing with our brains, or tricking our eyes.

[Pink Eye]

And to anyone who has ever said that they observe 'orbs' of light or see traces of phantasmic forces captured on film, I say: Clean your damn lenses, be they camera or glasses.

It is usually dust, rain/snow, lens flare, and insects that cause fake orbs. Many Ghost Hunter websites will actually post fake orb photos and "real" ones; however, I never a difference.

The funniest one I saw was a "vortex mist" ghost. I bet you 100 bucks it was a camera strap...the damn thing was creating a shadow on the wall.

[Crazy_Vasey]

In the absence of any real evidence I have to fall back on I'll believe it when I see it.

[Shinova]

In the absence of any real evidence I have to fall back on I'll believe it when I see it.

There's a problem. Even if you see it with your own eyes, you can still claim that it was some lighting trick or just something you drank for lunch. Even if the thing touched you you could still claim you were hallucinating.


How far must "ghosts" go before a skeptic believes in them? Personally, I think anyone can deny them to indefinate lengths, even if the things bite you in the nose; then you can claim it was an insect of some kind or just something wrong with your nose.

[Shinova]

And if a ghost somehow destroyed a building, you can claim that the building collapsed under its own weight and the electricals inside tearing and all that were what caused the image of the ghost to appear. And so on and on and on...

[Lagmonster]

And if a ghost somehow destroyed a building, you can claim that the building collapsed under its own weight and the electricals inside tearing and all that were what caused the image of the ghost to appear. And so on and on and on...

The issue you're ignoring is one of proofs. You can't have one thing happen and then start inventing 'rational' excuses to prove it's not a ghost just like you can't start inventing ghosts in place of rational excuses.

If you prove that your building collapsed because some paranormal entity knocked it over, then that's what you have. We neither invent ghosts nor do we draw anything else out of our asses.

[Morat]

How far must "ghosts" go before a skeptic believes in them? Personally, I think anyone can deny them to indefinate lengths, even if the things bite you in the nose; then you can claim it was an insect of some kind or just something wrong with your nose.

All they have to do is make their presense felt in a scientifically sound, double-blind test. Heck, a person able to get ghosts to respond to such a test could pick up a cool $1,000,000 from James Randi.

It should be pretty simple:
1. First, we'd have to find out what ghosts are supposedly able to do. If they can affect the physical world, they can be tested.
2. Based on the above claim of supernatural capabilities, a test could be devised. For example, if the presense of ghosts can make humans feel strange, we can run scans on various people while exposing (and not exposing) them to ghosts. If ghosts can only manipulate things on the quantum level, we can (for example) send messages through quantum entanglement while the ghost alters the entangled pair. We can then test to see if the results are random or not.
3. Now, find out how ghosts are able to communicate with our world. Can they read thoughts? Printed messages? Can they hear sounds?
4. Finally, using whatever method or methods is deemed most appropriate, send signals worldwide notifying ghosts of the opportunity to make themselves known. Out of the trillions of ghosts, surely some of them will want to do that. It defies credibility to think that all ghosts everywhere want to remain hidden.

[Shinova]

And if a ghost somehow destroyed a building, you can claim that the building collapsed under its own weight and the electricals inside tearing and all that were what caused the image of the ghost to appear. And so on and on and on...

The issue you're ignoring is one of proofs. You can't have one thing happen and then start inventing 'rational' excuses to prove it's not a ghost just like you can't start inventing ghosts in place of rational excuses.

If you prove that your building collapsed because some paranormal entity knocked it over, then that's what you have. We neither invent ghosts nor do we draw anything else out of our asses.

But the burden of proof is on the ghost-believers and they CAN'T prove it. Thus it'll still be superstit...gah, nevermind.

[Colonel Olrik]

But the burden of proof is on the ghost-believers and they CAN'T prove it. Thus it'll still be superstit...gah, nevermind.

If ghosts were real, and interacted, by some means, with our world (thus making them more credible than my invisible, fire-breathing, garage dragon), then there are bound to exist experiments that can validy their existence. If you can have a scientifically conducted experiment which results in the only possible explanation being the existence of ghosts, and if you can repeat it, then they exist.

That has never happened, much to the mediums and other believers changrin. In the beggining of this century there were a lot of people, intelligent and dumb, advocating spiritism, that it was proven beyond doubt. In the end, none of those alleged mediums could perform in front of skeptics, and achieve any of the purposed results. They all come up as frauds or self-deluded people.

[Morat]

If ghosts were real, and interacted, by some means, with our world (thus making them more credible than my invisible, fire-breathing, garage dragon), then there are bound to exist experiments that can validy their existence. If you can have a scientifically conducted experiment which results in the only possible explanation being the existence of ghosts, and if you can repeat it, then they exist.

That has never happened, much to the mediums and other believers changrin. In the beggining of this century there were a lot of people, intelligent and dumb, advocating spiritism, that it was proven beyond doubt. In the end, none of those alleged mediums could perform in front of skeptics, and achieve any of the purposed results. They all come up as frauds or self-deluded people.

Actually, there are numerous scientists who have devoted their careers to studying the paranormal, and continue to look for signs of ghosts and such. Like any field, it has some quacks in it, but there are plenty of reputable scientists, too.

Of course, they haven't found anything.

[The Dark]

BaH, you cannot explain the paranormal with simple physics! Otherwise it wouldn't be paranormal!

If it interacts with our environment, it must be the result of natural mechanisms ... thus not supernatural.

If scientific realism is correct as a philosophy about the way things really are. That has not, and philosophically can never be proven to be the case (oh, the joys of having an agnostic Jewish skeptic for a philosophy professor...I don't need you guys to mess with my brain, Dr. Silber can do it by himself). I personally don't believe ghosts exist, but I believe it is possible that observable phenomena exist which science cannot (currently) explain, due to flaws in theories that people haven't recognized or just incompleteness of those theories.

[UltraViolence83]

Actually, some researchers have put a dying person on very sensitive scales, and on the exact moment of death the corpse's weight dropped by a very, very small fraction. (It could just be exhaled air from the lungs, but I think it was too heavy or something. )

same thing with powerful psychics: guy had his hand over a super-sensitive scale, sitting on one too, he forced energy to come out of his hand onto the scale, and a slight loss of weight occured in his body whilst the same amount was gained on the hand-scale ...

That and also the things I've read [and personally experienced] by people who seem to have their heads screwed on tight leads me to believe that "spiritual energy" i.e., soul, spirit, ghost, entity maintains a slight link with this plane of reality; while the energy still seems to have mass or whatever (vibration waves?) else. And if all paranormal activity is just in your head, that doesn't explain phenonema witnessed by more than one person... it also appears to be different with every person (unless it is a group phenomenon, like I just mentioned).

And since these things almost always can only be reported by people, not by intruments, or how people can lie while instruments cannot, is why discussions on religion and metaphysics are almost purely a philosophical realm. To honestly study such strange things, we have to group the reported observations into archetypes...

Too many things are too similiar to be just fantasy...

By the way, NO I am NOT a kook. I simply have reason to belive that there's more to the universe than pure logic and repeatable observations.