To Shep and the Drakafic guys: After the Domination Falls

[Pablo Sanchez]

I'm thinking TB2D SKYPIRATES from the large carriers.

What about the late-war option of using Allied naval supremacy to seize islands off the African coast? There are some pretty significant islands (Sao Tome and Principe, Fernando Po, the Comoros, Zanzibar) that would give strategic bombers access to large areas of Africa. Obviously it would be too daunting to contemplate for a long time, but after the Japanese navy was depleted enough to free up significant USN assets, and the Drakan Air Force was hurt badly enough to prevent them mounting a serious air offensive, these islands would be pretty safe once taken. As for taking them, we'd be talking about US Marines hardened by years of experience rooting the Japanese out from under every cursed rock in the Pacific against the Dominate junior varsity (they're unlikely to keep serious forces holed up on islands).

[KlavoHunter]

What about the late-war option of using Allied naval supremacy to seize islands off the African coast? There are some pretty significant islands (Sao Tome and Principe, Fernando Po, the Comoros, Zanzibar) that would give strategic bombers access to large areas of Africa. Obviously it would be too daunting to contemplate for a long time, but after the Japanese navy was depleted enough to free up significant USN assets, and the Drakan Air Force was hurt badly enough to prevent them mounting a serious air offensive, these islands would be pretty safe once taken. As for taking them, we'd be talking about US Marines hardened by years of experience rooting the Japanese out from under every cursed rock in the Pacific against the Dominate junior varsity (they're unlikely to keep serious forces holed up on islands).

There was also the thought of Madagascar.

Unfortunately, we haven't quite set the history of Madagascar in stone yet - when it was annexed by the Dominate, how populated it is, etc etc.

[Big Orange]

Hacked, and edited from a German uniform site where I found the original image from:

*Snip Image*

I'm not too sure on the jackboots; I'd imagine that some sort of high rise boots would be standard on the Drakian uniform due to conditions in Africa; all sorts of weird wildlife...

That looks more like a Janissary drill uniform worn by newly recruited serf soldiers that are going through training exercises in the arid parts of Africa and the Middle East - I dislike the German garrison cap, always will, all the serf soldiers from the WarDir's Janissary Corps and the SirDir's Order Police should be wearing FUCKING FEZZEZ, LIKE THIS:



It makes sense that Drakan policemen and soldiers would have more hardy footwear than their European foes, but it would be for dusty scrubland and sandbanks, not for the artic tundra that they tried to invade in 1941 (I imagine most Janissary and Drakan soldiers would soon wear Russian fur hats like their Axis counterparts did in the OTL).

The main thing I dislike about the Drakan uniform colours from the Drakafics is that the military serf personnel wear dove grey khaki while the military citizens are clad in green - it makes more sense that the default colour for Drakan field uniforms from most branches would be a light mustard brownish green khaki - the only real notable difference between Citizen Force and Janissary Corps soldiers are the weapons and equipment they use, in addition to their rank insignia and uniform caps (ie fezzes or billed caps for serfs, berets or Boer caps for citizens).

While most Citizen Force soldiers would wear conventional khaki uniforms (more closely related to British than German uniforms) the Citizen Force paratroopers would wear camouflage smocks similar to what the Waffen-SS wore, but their helmets and first rate (ahead of it’s time) gear would be more like 1960s British paratroopers.

Unfortunately, we haven't quite set the history of Madagascar in stone yet - when it was annexed by the Dominate, how populated it is, etc etc.

I wouldn’t be surprised that Madagascar would be a big Drakan naval and air force stronghold, with various other sensitive and important facilities located there - maybe this would be the location for the Dominations’ development of it’s own A-bomb mine stockpile and various other top secret weapons that they vainly deploy in the war‘s final years ala the TR with it’s rocketry? And Madagascarr could be the last Drakan outpost, outside of South Africa, to be taken by the Allies due to it’s heavily dug in defence garrison being far better equipped and protected than any ill fated Japanese hold out in the Pacific…

How is that for possible suggestions?

[PeZook]

It makes sense that Drakan policemen and soldiers would have more hardy footwear than their European foes, but it would be for dusty scrubland and sandbanks, not for the artic tundra that they tried to invade in 1941 (I imagine most Janissary and Drakan soldiers would soon wear Russian fur hats like their Axis counterparts did in the OTL).

Ugh. I hate it when people spout stupid crap about Russia like that.

Russia is not a frozen wasteland, like you apparently believe. The Draka came in through the Caucassus, which is actually quite temperate. The tundra only starts much further up north - in fact, no Wehrmacht units ever even reached it. It was the cold winter and, more precisely, their lack of winter gear that produced the photos of german troops wearing russian fur caps and stolen sweaters.

Here's a map for you:

Arctic tundra. Educate yourself on geography.

[Big Orange]

I do realize that the Axis powers invaded Russia through Belarus and Ukraine, very varied regions of Eurasia that got very hot and dry during the summer when Operation Barbarossa occurred - the Domination are pushing up through the Caucasus, essentially up from the more arid Middle East, but they're still going to be hit hard by the elements the further they roll up North come autumn and winter (how are Domination soldiers in desert gear going to cope with the dreaded Russian winter? Although they likely have better planning and forsight behind their invasion than the German invasion did under Hitler in the OTL).

[Pablo Sanchez]

There was also the thought of Madagascar.

I don't know. Madagascar would be an enormous undertaking in and of itself, being as it is close to three times as large as the isle of Great Britain and possessed of rather hostile terrain. It might make more sense for the Allies to bypass entirely until very late in the war and just bomb it regularly from the Comoros, as naval supremacy renders it disconnected from the rest of the Dominate.

Unfortunately, we haven't quite set the history of Madagascar in stone yet - when it was annexed by the Dominate, how populated it is, etc etc.

As a limit, Madagascar simply can't be invaded until quinine sees significant use (1850s). It's so saturated with malaria that any non-native army would disintegrate before it could take the whole, huge island.

[Big Orange]

Well Madagascar would be logical place for navy bases, rugged army training grounds and the Dominate has a decade long period to build massive strongholds there, that would take a long time to destroy by air (even with A-bombs).

[Sea Skimmer]

If Madagascar was attacked the allies would only seize a small portion of it, mainly Diégo-Suarez. The place has an excellent natural harbor, its located at the extreme north end of the island and the terrain to the south is rugged even by the islands own standards. Once land based air power is established, then some other base areas might be seized in the south. The same rugged terrain that makes taking the whole island impossible also means the Draka would have an extremely hard time concentrating forces for a counter attack.

Taking only a portion of an island and then suppressing the rest with locally based air power and naval patrols was done on more then one Pacific island in OTL, Bougainville being a prime example.


The allies taking several smaller islands, all around the African coast is already established, but most of these operations could not be launched before 1944 or so. An invasion of Madagascar would depend heavily on priorities, and might involve west European troops being moved by American amphibious shipping.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Well Madagascar would be logical place for navy bases,

Not really. One would more likely expect them to construct major naval bases in cities such as (using OTL names) Capetown, Lagos, and Dar es Salaam (these bases being like Scapa Flow) and heavily fortified forward naval bases in strategic locations like Alexandria or the Bab al Mendeb (these being equivalent to Singapore).

The island of Madagascar, for its part, is rather isolated from the rest of the Indian Ocean. There isn't any strategic purpose that a naval base on Madagascar could serve, that would not be better served by a base somewhere else. It made a lot of sense for France to take it, as they had no other major possessions anywhere near it, and it offered a good coaling station on the route to the Far East and strategic access to the East African Coast--but the Dominate doesn't need coaling stations because they have no far flung naval empire, and they already control the East African Coast.

It just doesn't make a lot of sense.

rugged army training grounds and the Dominate has a decade long period to build massive strongholds there, that would take a long time to destroy by air (even with A-bombs).

With the obvious flaw in your reasoning being that there isn't a justifiable reason to fortify Madagascar so heavily. It's isolated enough from the rest of the world that the Dominate would have no real reason to suspect it was in any danger until rather late in the war when the USN and RN can begin to make serious sorties throughout the Indian Ocean, and in any case the island wouldn't produce anything of real strategic significance for the Dominate, being poor in minerals and located far from the heart of industrial production.

I think that in any Drakafic timeline, Madagascar should be a relatively late addition. Let's say it's undertaken after the Sepoy Mutiny and the British seizure of India, to ease the sting of that loss--so late 1850s. Because of it's isolation, rugged terrain, and relatively poor natural resources, it would remain an agricultural backwater of the Dominate.

[Big Orange]

Madagascar being heavily militarised within a few short years may seem impractical, but when things are gradually turning to shit for the Dominate with the Luftwaffe/RAF/USAAF turning up the heat, year in year out, it is common sense that the Combine production facilities are going to be built underground while the Drakan military are dramatically ramping up their air defence network to neutralize the increasingly higher flying and powerful enemy bombers (they’re not going to make a stupid mistake like Nazi Germany did by wasting time with jet bombers, instead of jet interceptors).

[Sea Skimmer]

Not to nitpick, but Scapa Flow as some massive RN base is pretty much a myth created by the RN its self. The place had virtually no facilities except some oil storage tanks throughout the world wars. It was more or less just a protected anchorage, without even substantial shore batteries. The real RN base in the north was Rosyth, built up just before WW1 to support the 'distant blockade' strategy. As I understand it the RN preferred to keep its main force anchored at Scapa Flow mainly because it had multiple exits, while Rosyth had only one, which made it easier for U-boats to wait in ambush. The distance to Norway was also less.



For the Draka naval operations exist only to support land forces, the fleet they have in 1940 is the only proper fleet they have ever had, so there is no reason to assume that each time the Draka took a new chunk of land they built full scale naval bases (which I define has ones having dry docks and repair facilities which can handle capital ships).

That said, the Draka do hold Ceylon. The distance from Ceylon to Diégo-Suarez is about the same as the distance to Djibouti, around 2,500 miles. Nairobi and Dar es Salaam are maybe 300-400 miles further away. Mogadishu is the closest on paper by a hair, but it doesn’t have much of a harbor and is unlikely to be developed into anything but a civilian port.

I expect all these places, and more, are developed as submarine and destroyer bases, with extensive oil storage so they can fuel a passing fleet, but that’s it. The Draka do not have a large enough surface navy relative to the size of the empire to justify building full scale fleet bases base all over. They probably rely heavily on depot ships and floating dry docks which can be moved to new areas of operation. They are planning an offensive war after all, s it only makes sense to do this.

They also probably sort of follow RN tradition, and the RN was very fond of using depot and repair ships even within its established naval bases. This was because they thought discipline was better when the men on a ship rather then on barracks, even if they never sailed anywhere.

I certainly agree that it makes no sense to build a major base at Diégo-Suarez or anywhere else on Madagascar.

The main building yards would be in the far south, and the proper fleet bases would run from Alexandria to Dakar.

It’s possible that Djibouti, Bandar Abbas and Columbo would be developed, or at least under development by the start of the war, for the purpose of securing the Draka oil supply, and future Empire. But overall, since India is even more important to Britain then historical, fighting in the Indian Ocean means fighting the full force of the RN, and the Draka will know they can’t expect to win that kind of fight. The official plan for defeating the RN probably involves conquering France and bombing London into submission…

[Big Orange]

So the Draka never had a truly impressive navy for the size of their empire and they've pushed most of their industrial resources for military use into their land army? And how good are their tanks in comparison to their Russian opponents?

Reading through the writers bible, I got the impression the Hond III was pretty comparable to the 1930s Panzer IV and they had to upgrade it by adding a 90 mm cannon, then introduced another more advanced Hond tank once the Dominate's armoured brigades in 1937 came into contact with Soviet tanks similar to the T-34 and KV-1 from the OTL (tank development is roughly half a decade faster).

And a few questions about the Janissaries - even though their AFVs are notably inferior to their Citizen Force counterparts, are still overall good, well trained infantrymen with decent equipment or do they vary in quality? I imagine a minority of European POWs in Drakan captivity would be press-ganged into Janissary service in severe emergencies (it occured in the OTL in Russia when the Axis armies recruited soldiers from Russian national groups, even though the Nazis were infamously unsympathetic occupiers and would've likely recruited more collaborators if it weren't for their anti-Slavic racism).

[Sea Skimmer]

The Draka have far more large tanks at the onset, but the T-31 (OTL T-34) is already standard on the outbreak of war. Tech acceleration means the Russians rapidly reach the point of producing the IS series tanks which are able reasonably match any Draka tank, though not tank destroyer.

The Hond III is heavier then the German Mark III or IV, or the Sherman for that matter, and only gets heavier as its uparmored and upgunned. Its closer to being on par with a Panther in its final form.

The Draka gain a large part of there combat effectiveness simply through shear numbers and a willingness to piss away hoards of Janissaries to simply soften up allied units. In writing so far we’ve pretty much had all Janissaries as equal, but they probably would vary a fair bit in quality and the Draka would plan with this in mind. The less effective units would either be thrown into the first waves, or used to guard remote areas like the North African coast. It would largely depend on the area of operations and if the logistical situation can support the added masses of low quality troops. In Italy for example, the Draka could only afford to support high qaulity troops owing to limited sealift.

[Vehrec]

The less effective units would either be thrown into the first waves, or used to guard remote areas like the North African coast.

So tell us, where in the timeline falls the invasion of Morocco from the sea/air? I mean, if you want to open a second front, that would seem like a good place to do it at first glance.

[KlavoHunter]

The less effective units would either be thrown into the first waves, or used to guard remote areas like the North African coast.

So tell us, where in the timeline falls the invasion of Morocco from the sea/air? I mean, if you want to open a second front, that would seem like a good place to do it at first glance.

Haven't quite figured that one out yet, honestly. However, it would be chock-full of good stuff, like Patton and Rommel, and Spanish troops.

[Zor]

Another thing i was wondering about, have you considered putting effort into fleshing out the Janissary corps some more? I know that they get a cut of plunder (both material and sexual) from conquered lands and if they live through there term of service they get to spend the rest of there life in retirement comunities, but what of the history and orginization of the corps? Do the Draka try to maintain some nationalism (or something to the effect of) among their 'well broke in' serf populations? Will they mass levy serfs into crude and badly armed "legions" to try to stem the tide near the bitter end of the domination and such?

Zor

[Big Orange]

The Hond III is heavier then the German Mark III or IV, or the Sherman for that matter, and only gets heavier as its uparmored and upgunned. Its closer to being on par with a Panther in its final form.

Do the Hond tanks have excellent crew ergonomics, scope optics like German tanks but are mechanically reliable like American tanks? The 1930s Hond III remained the most common CF tank until 1942, a excellent cruiser tank that was better armed and armoured than most of it's contemporaries, but by then the Drakans had various other heavy Hond tanks that were comparable to the OTL's JS-III, Pershing and King Tiger. However in 1945 the Drakans have introduce a totally new breed of Hond, a AFV that is essentially comparable to a British MBT from the mid 1950s...

The Draka gain a large part of there combat effectiveness simply through shear numbers and a willingness to piss away hoards of Janissaries to simply soften up allied units. In writing so far we’ve pretty much had all Janissaries as equal, but they probably would vary a fair bit in quality and the Draka would plan with this in mind. The less effective units would either be thrown into the first waves, or used to guard remote areas like the North African coast. It would largely depend on the area of operations and if the logistical situation can support the added masses of low quality troops. In Italy for example, the Draka could only afford to support high qaulity troops owing to limited sealift.

I guess the more "open minded" Drakan generals would far prefer reasonably well equipped, well trained and well directed Janissary infantrymen that are comparable in quality to most Russian soldiers and organized into smallish brigades, over masses of bare footed serf cannon fodder armed with flintlock rifles and organized into much larger yet badly directed bands. Janissaries should really be medium quality army units that are only really negated by their obsolete AFVs, total lack of heavy field artillery and most divisions being relatively under motorized in comparison to their CF counterparts who are always fully motorized...

[KlavoHunter]

Janissaries should really be medium quality army units that are only really negated by their obsolete AFVs, total lack of heavy field artillery and most divisions being relatively under motorized in comparison to their CF counterparts who are always fully motorized...

Actually, the "Obsolete AFVs" bit is misleading - The current version of the WB has them still with the hilariously obsolete tanks that aren't even worth building. That's from an older version of the WB, and, frankly, Janni tanks sucking THAT bad just doesn't make sense at all.

I redid them a while back, but the info never made it to the WB before DS's crash, so I'm having to redo it all. I'll give you an example of the primary Janni tank during the early-war period. To the Hond IIIC's Panther and the Hond IV's King Tiger, this is more like a Sherman.



Spatha (1938 to 1942)
30 km/h maximum speed
5 man crew
76mm K1930 L50
7.7mm P-13A MG (Co-Ax)
7.7mm P-13A MG (Hull)
80mm Effective Hull Front
30mm Effective Hull Sides
20mm Effective Hull Rear
80mm Effective Turret Front
30mm Effective Turret Sides
20mm Effective Turret Rear

NOTES: This is the standard Jannissary tank produced from lessons learned in the border clashes with the Soviet Union. Designed to take on the later-model T-31 with a reasonable chance of success. Armed with the longer 76mm antiaircraft gun that was considered to regun the Hond III, but discarded in favor of the 90mm K1936 gun. Changed at the last minute to improve side and rear armor to defend against PTRD attack. Named after the longer Roman war-sword that replaced the Gladius.

[Big Orange]

OK, so the Janissary tanks are not so overtly outmatched after all, even though it sounds like they always need to work in conjecture with Hond III/IVs, artillery pieces and CF aircraft to be tactically effective (not unlike the M4 Sherman). Does the Spatha tank have a steam powered engine mounted on the back or is that a feature of the older Janissary tanks? But reading through the Drakafics, I always had the impression that Janissary soldiers were underrated anyway, even though they were naturally lower on the pecking order in receiving all the shiny new military toys.

And why does the War and Security Directorates include women in their ranks? Female combat troops in history are not entirely unheard of in history, especially in the Soviet Union, but they seem comparatively rare or underexposed...

[PeZook]

OK, so the Janissary tanks are not so overtly outmatched after all, even though it sounds they always need to work in conjecture with Hond III/IVs, artillery pieces and CF aircraft to be tactically effective (not unlike the M4 Sherman).

Which is pretty smart, when you think about it. Jannisarry units should be designed in such a way that they are ineffective without close co-operation with the citizen forces - this prevents uprisings quite nicely, or at least minimizes damage.

And why does the War and Security Directorates include women in their ranks? Female combat troops in history are not entirely unheard of in history, especially in the Soviet Union, but they seem comparatively rare or underexposed...

Well, the Draka have quite a small Citizen population, and they train both boys and girls the same, so it's really a small wonder that quite a lot of women serve at the front.

And what do you mean by "rare"? The USSR used women everywhere it could, they even had a completely female fighter unit.

[Big Orange]

Which is pretty smart, when you think about it. Jannisarry units should be designed in such a way that they are ineffective without close co-operation with the citizen forces - this prevents uprisings quite nicely, or at least minimizes damage.

Well it seems a big deal that the Drakan masters allow some of their serfs to be well armed soldiers with access to an adequate tank force of their own, although steps must've been taken to avoid mutiny and it makes sense that the Janissary formations should be under motorized so whole battalions could cut off right in the middle of remote battlefields (with swaths of Russia and the ME being as remote as anything). There must be a pecking order among the Drakan serfs with many serf soldiers and police deeply involved with the Domination's war crimes (so it is not only Drakan citizens that are implicit, even though they call the shots). I wonder if some select serfs are engineers and scientists, regardless of their ethnic background (ironic egalitarianism)?

Well, the Draka have quite a small Citizen population, and they train both boys and girls the same, so it's really a small wonder that quite a lot of women serve at the front.

The USSR would have female soldiers and so would the Draka - the two adjacent empires are imitating each other in most respects, aside from AFV and aircraft development. And the Drakans started off as hardy frontier folk, with women often taking part in "men's work" and fighting off spear chuckers from their wagon trains.

And what do you mean by "rare"? The USSR used women everywhere it could, they even had a completely female fighter unit.

I meant "rare" among Western militaries during WWII, with all the women drafted into factory work, traffic policing and communication posts etc. I would bet that a disproportionate number of Drakan women in military service would be tankers, pilots and SirDir enforcement officers rather than frontline combat troops.

[CaptainChewbacca]

You know, I have a map of the drakaficverse circa 1960 that shows the disposition of Drakian territories among the allies, but I don't know if it is still valid. Should I post it?

[Big Orange]

Please do, CaptainChewbacca.

[Sea Skimmer]

OK, so the Janissary tanks are not so overtly outmatched after all, even though it sounds like they always need to work in conjecture with Hond III/IVs, artillery pieces and CF aircraft to be tactically effective (not unlike the M4 Sherman).

ALL TANKS NEED COMBINE ARMS SUPPORT, above all infantry support. It doesn’t matter how good the specifications might look or how absurdly more advanced it might be; a pure tank force will be decimated in action.

One of the big reasons why the German army was so effective early in WW2 was because it appreciated this from the onset, and so even the Panzer I and II could be made effective as part of all arms battlegroups. One of the most effective German tactics was to make a demonstration with tanks, and then simply retreat behind an anti tank gun screen to await an allied pure tank attack.

[KlavoHunter]

OK, so the Janissary tanks are not so overtly outmatched after all, even though it sounds like they always need to work in conjecture with Hond III/IVs, artillery pieces and CF aircraft to be tactically effective (not unlike the M4 Sherman). Does the Spatha tank have a steam powered engine mounted on the back or is that a feature of the older Janissary tanks?

No, Janissary tanks run on petrol ICEs - I'm pretty sure it's impractical to use a steam engine for a tank, as you need a good power-weight ratio to move all that armor around. However, their APCs and trucks run on cheaper steamer engines.

But reading through the Drakafics, I always had the impression that Janissary soldiers were underrated anyway, even though they were naturally lower on the pecking order in receiving all the shiny new military toys.

That's the thing - they ARE underrated. The Janissaries are, in equipment and basic training, at least, very much similar to equivalent Allied troops, with lots of SMGs, semi-auto carbines and rifles.

On the other hand, they don't get all the shiny toys, though, and less support, and are used in more tactically and strategically primitive ways, with head-on assaults into the enemy to 'soften them up'. And in many ways, head-on assaults *AREN'T* so obsolete and suicidal as they're portrayed as being - Marina had a nice and in-depth article on how the frontal assault was an effective plan of attack throughout history, which I fear is lost now with DS' hard crash. After all, if you have more men than the enemy, and more momentum behind your men's frontal attack, they will, more likely than not, break the enemy.

The fact that the Draka don't care too horribly much about their slave-soldiers' lives makes this tactic all the more deadly effective, really.

And why does the War and Security Directorates include women in their ranks? Female combat troops in history are not entirely unheard of in history, especially in the Soviet Union, but they seem comparatively rare or underexposed...

As said, the Draka only have so much in the way of Citizens, and therefore they have to make the best use of them. This is especially effective for them, seeing as they don't have to keep nearly all their female population back on "The home front" to keep producing munitions and such like every other nation, as they have their serf population to do it for them.